HELP!!! I have a combat CCW Gun problem/question!!!!!!!!!

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - HELP!!! I have a combat CCW Gun problem/question!!!!!!!!!

Posted: 9/4/2004 3:55:38 PM EDT

Hey Guys...

I have a dilema.

I have the 24/7 XS Big Dot sights on my CCW gun. In slow aimed fire, they suck.

At distances over 7-10 yards, they suck.

At distances of 10 yards and less with rapid fire, they are great. Keeps all shots within the 8 ring of so on a standard pistol target.

So Im toying with a couple ideas.

Idea 1. Change the sight completely. Considering going with Meprolights. (about 80 bucks installed) or going with TruGlows (Mix of Fiber Optic and Night Sights for about 90 bucks)

Idea 2 Change the rear sight only. Since I believe part of the problem is the V shaped rear sight. I am thinking of putting the Rear sight from my XD on my Glock when I put night sights on my XD.

Idea 3. Leave it alone, and hope I dont get into a defensive situation where I have to shoot beyond 10 yards.

Your thoughts please?

Posted: 9/4/2004 4:00:02 PM EDT

[#1]

I looked into these and decided the difficulty at long range to hit anything outweighed the fast close range acquisition.

Posted: 9/4/2004 4:14:40 PM EDT

[#2]

Most gunfights occur under 7 feet.

Contact distance, shooting from a tucked position.

At close range (4-7 feet) I don't use sights, I point shoot. A proper stance and draw will bring you onto center of chest without looking.

From 7 feet to 30 feet I use a flash sight picture which makes the front sight primary and again a proper stance and draw will bring you onto center of chest while using the front sight to tune the [all important] first shot. Muscle memory will then keep you in the kill zone.

From 30 feet out you now need that sight picture if you want to stay in the Kill zone.

Distance = Time, Time = Safety. The further you are the more time [and need] you have to apply your sights.

Posted: 9/4/2004 6:00:07 PM EDT

[#3]

I think those gunfight statistics were compiled from a study of officers who were killed. I read about this in some gunbook, the author is a LEO & Instructor in Ohio, I think. I will dig it out tomorrow (of course now I can't find where I put it) he read up on it and had a pretty good argument that a lot of fights occurr at greater distances than that and that the police officer was more likely to win at greater distances because of his (presumed) training and practice in being able to get the first hit at longer distances. That's one advantage we (hopefully) have over some mutt, the ability to hit someone at 15-25 yards.

Give me a chance to find that book tomorrow morning and verify that though.

(Hmm he says basically the same thing as you about sighting also)

Posted: 9/5/2004 4:07:23 AM EDT

[#4]

If you shoot someone who is not virtually right on top of you, your ability to claim self-defense may be seriously in jeopardy.

Posted: 9/5/2004 8:42:03 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
If you shoot someone who is not virtually right on top of you, your ability to claim self-defense may be seriously in jeopardy.

Hmmmm....

Posted: 9/5/2004 9:04:37 AM EDT

[#6]

LE uses the 21 foot rule. If the attacker is armed with a cutting or impact weapon and reaches the 21 foot line he's fair game.

Posted: 9/5/2004 9:08:30 AM EDT

[#7]

I have night sites on the XD, they work decent for me.

Posted: 9/5/2004 9:31:34 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
LE uses the 21 foot rule. If the attacker is armed with a cutting or impact weapon and reaches the 21 foot line he's fair game.

Definately my personal rule too!! Get that close to me with a Knife or whatever and Im gonna go "pizza guy"!! (but with better shot placement)

Posted: 9/5/2004 9:32:32 AM EDT

[#9]

Quite frankly,

I have always thought that they Express pistol sights were an ingenious marketing decision.

People have bought a good amount of them. They could have done just as well with a Heinie or a Novak.

I'll bet my next two paychecks that more good hits have been made by shooters using Heinies and Novaks, than by shooters using the express sights. At any distance.

So why would I (or anyone) want a sight that is made for 15 feet and closer??

I think it's pretty damn reckless to tell people that they will never have to shoot someone at more than 15' because that's what the statistics say.

Posted: 9/5/2004 9:34:39 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
LE uses the 21 foot rule. If the attacker is armed with a cutting or impact weapon and reaches the 21 foot line he's fair game.

Yeah, sorta.

But if a subject has a firearm, 4-7 feet, or 21 feet doesn't mean jack.

Posted: 9/5/2004 8:19:27 PM EDT

[#11]

Perhaps spend the money on ammo and practice your aimed fire.

Posted: 9/6/2004 2:02:03 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Perhaps spend the money on ammo and practice your aimed fire.

Posted: 9/7/2004 1:07:16 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
LE uses the 21 foot rule. If the attacker is armed with a cutting or impact weapon and reaches the 21 foot line he's fair game.

That's what the instructors (LEOs from Tuolome County CA) at my CCW certification course said, so I can vouch for this statement. Also, they demonstrated with practice knives and guns that if an attacker who's fairly proficient with the knife is charging you from within those twenty-one magical feet, odds are they'll be able to cut you up in vital areas before you can draw your sidearm. That means they can kill you before you can so much as line up the barrel with their center of mass.

It was a sobering class, that...

Posted: 9/7/2004 7:32:37 AM EDT

[#14]

Keep the big dot on the CCW gun. In a situation where you need the gun quickly, the front sight is what you should be looking for. The rear sight is kind of along for the ride at that point. Anything that will help the front sight grab your eye is good.

Don't worry about shooting tight groups with it on the range.

Posted: 9/7/2004 7:43:05 AM EDT

[#15]

Idea 1. Change the sight completely. Considering going with Meprolights.

Posted: 9/7/2004 8:15:47 AM EDT

[#16]

My CCW gun has "traditional" post-and-notch tritium sights (Meprolite) because I shoot a lot of IPSC with traditional post-and-notch sights, and when the SHTF it will be important to see something familiar so I can concentrate on the matter in hand.

Posted: 9/7/2004 10:03:16 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
LE uses the 21 foot rule. If the attacker is armed with a cutting or impact weapon and reaches the 21 foot line he's fair game.

21 feet is too close. Doing the drills in RL instead of theory, one finds that an attacker can cover 21 feet well before most people are ready to fire on him. If you are at a low ready and have already decided that you are more than willing to pull the trigger, that is one thing.

But if not, then you had better double that distance....

Posted: 9/7/2004 10:05:16 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quite frankly,

I have always thought that they Express pistol sights were an ingenious marketing decision.

People have bought a good amount of them. They could have done just as well with a Heinie or a Novak.

I'll bet my next two paychecks that more good hits have been made by shooters using Heinies and Novaks, than by shooters using the express sights. At any distance.

So why would I (or anyone) want a sight that is made for 15 feet and closer??

I think it's pretty damn reckless to tell people that they will never have to shoot someone at more than 15' because that's what the statistics say.

+1000

This much I know:

People with good training can make good hits using their sights at 5 feet or 50 yards. Marketing a sight based on only arm's length engagements is just irresponsible. Plain black Novaks with a little yellow paint on the front sight is good enough to get you on target fast at close range, while still allowing for precise shooting out to 100 yards.

Posted: 9/7/2004 1:12:50 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
This much I know:

Plain black Novaks with a little yellow paint on the front sight is good enough to get you on target fast at close range, while still allowing for precise shooting out to 100 yards.

Sorry. I call BS. The bullet drop alone would require some hold over, over the sights to get on target.

Posted: 9/7/2004 3:33:11 PM EDT

[#20]

Depends on how "precise" you are talking about. In other words, your target.

Posted: 9/7/2004 6:54:49 PM EDT

[#21]

Buy american.. Trijicon!

Posted: 9/7/2004 7:09:02 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
I think it's pretty damn reckless to tell people that they will never have to shoot someone at more than 15' because that's what the statistics say.

I agree, you shouldn't count on a fight never being longer than that. As CCW holders, though, there are liability concerns with longer range engagement. It is difficult to imagine a justifiable shooting at 100 yards with a handgun. OTOH, at 3 yards, you normally wouldn't be using the sights much. I like the XS 24/7s because I can easily keep a mag in a paper plate at 10 yards in rapid fire. The big dot emphasizes a "front sight" focus, and I can use it to guide my eye to the target at closer ranges while not getting tunnel vision. Can I hit anything at 50 yards? No way. They're a compromise; they're certainly not the answer to every question. I'm happy with them, though. I got my sets for a huge discount; I probably wouldn't have paid the full retail.

Posted: 9/8/2004 4:55:49 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
This much I know:

Plain black Novaks with a little yellow paint on the front sight is good enough to get you on target fast at close range, while still allowing for precise shooting out to 100 yards.

Sorry. I call BS. The bullet drop alone would require some hold over, over the sights to get on target.

No, not BS. With a slight holdover I can hit 2 liter soda bottles quite regularly at 100 yards using my Les Baer 1911. This is, of course, a more accurate pistol than most with perfectly regulated sights, and a crisp trigger.

But I have also used Kimbers to ring 12 inch steel plates at 100 yards. A Beretta 92 to ring 12 inch steel plates at 120.

You CAN indeed hit something at those longer ranges with a pistol if you practice it, and learn the sight picture needed with the round you are using. That's one of the reasons all my .45 shooting is done with 230 grain bullets....

The point is that even at those long distances you CAN use the sights to make precise shots should you practice it. Whereas the "express" sight systems would leave you guessing.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - HELP!!! I have a combat CCW Gun problem/question!!!!!!!!!

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