User Panel
Posted: 7/22/2008 5:53:38 AM EDT
Just curious.
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i carry 185 gr hydra-shok in my compact new agent .45...I love them
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Its an antiquated design. There are better options available such as Gold Dots, Ranger Ts, and HSTs.
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I carry Range Ts in my 9 but hydra's in my 45. i just wanted to know why because i think both would transfer all their energy to the target.
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actually they function as designed and in general perform well. it's just not the latest whizz bang uber round so it gets dissed frequently.
sure there are better/equal performers out there but it's not bad ammo by any means. |
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I would have to respectfully disagree. I've seen numerous Hydrashocks fail to expand in anything other than plain water. I've never had the luxury of having ballistic gel to play with. But I have fired them through different media like denim and other clothing and also wood and sheetrock and also a few animal carcasses. I my limited, non scientific experience they expanded maybe 50% of the time at best. The nosecone plugs up and they basically became an FMJ round. Would you trust your life to something that worked 50% of the time? I wouldn’t when there are plenty of other much better performing bullet designs that have a more proven design. YMMV |
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sheet rock,clothing and debris can cause ANY HP ammunition to not properly expand. including gold dots and golden sabers.
are they perfect, nope, are they effective in most typical usage cases, yep. you'll notice above i said there ae better options |
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I have the HSTs but it still says hydrashok on em |
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To quote Shawn Dodson from Firearms Tactical:
I think Shawn's above quote from Glocktalk.com provides the best explaination of why Hydra-Shok ammunition is a poor defensive choice - especially when heavy clothing factors in. ...And who wants to pay the same price for 20 rounds [hydra-shok] when you can get 50 cartridges of superior [HST] for a few bucks more? The reason why HST is less costly than Hydra-Shok is because it is made using a newer, less expensive process. HST > Hydra-Shok |
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The HydraShok cultivated a very dedicated following since it was one of the better performing hollowpoints when those first came into existence, and the name and marketing have been kept that bullet alive much longer than it deserved. [ETA] Most of the people who are proponents of HS would start their defense with the words "I think...", which shows that their knowledge about this bullet's performance is either non-existent or obsolete.
Any bullet can fail to expand properly, but the HS consistently fails, while most modern design work. |
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I respectfully disagree. HST has nothing in common with Hydra-Shok ammo, and are two completely different bullet designs. I'll eat my socks if ü can produce a photo of this ammo box |
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For me, it's the price. The Silvertips, GoldenSabers, and Hydra-Shoks, are pretty darn expensive to practice enough with.
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Well you do need to test reliabilty of ammo with your firearm and mags. BTW I think the reason there is no love for the Hydrashok is because they are getting old and new technology has come out like the T series and HST and Gold Dots. |
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Gold dots have been around for a while too i think |
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True, they have, but they have also been proven to be more reliable than Hydrashocks. There is a reason that most LE agencies use either Gold Dots or the Rangers. There is also a reason that Hydrashocks are carried less and less by LEO's and civilians alike, not that they had a big following in the first place. I did my "testing" of them back in the early-mid 90's because a buddy of mine was telling me how great they were. He and I never looked at Federal again after what we saw of the Hydrashocks lack of performance. Once their HST's have a proven track record I would consider using them, they look to be a good performer. I'm actually very surprised the Federal has not stopped production of Hydrashocks. It's a free country so use what you want. You asked for peoples opinions on why they don't like them and I gave you my reasons. |
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The newest generation (ranger T, HST) does a damn good job of penetrating in nearly any medium... |
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Hydra.Shock.Two |
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You.Are.Wrong.N |
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I still carry Hydrashok's in my .45. At one time they were the top rated round with great stopping statistics. As new 'wonder-bullets' came along they lost advertising space so people began to feel that they were inadquate in some undefined way. Claims that they don't expand or don't do this or don't do that don't matter too much to me. My own limited testing suggests that they perform acceptably FOR ME. They're reliable in my weapon, accurate in my weapon and I've got lots of shooting history with them that suggests I can trust them to do their job.
I guess I'm just an old set-in-his-way's man that doesn't care much about chasing the latest wonder-bullet. At this point I've never seen a round come with a guaranteed expanding bullet, so until I do, I'll assume that ANY round will fail to expand and I'll try to depend on placement to do the job. I honestly don't care about the 'best' bullet, I'm happy with one that's 'good-enough'. |
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Hydra-Shoks were themselves touted as "wonder-bullets," particularly in .45 ACP. This was mostly due the "top rating" and "great stopping statistics" that we now know to be at the least questionable, and at worst flat out fraudulent. There's no mysterious "inadequate in some undefined way" stigma. What there is is a great deal of professional testing and research that have repeatedly demonstrated the shortcomings of the Hydra-Shok compared to newer designs. Regarding the original post, I didn't know that the knowledge that the Hydra-Shok was obsolete was anything new. It's been posted about on this web site for years. |
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1) Why doesn't the lack of expansion matter to you? You could just use FMJ if you don't care. 2) If your testing methods are flawed, then how can you accurately form an opinion about the bullet's performance? |
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1) Lack of expansion in MY testing hasn't manifested itself. This testing over the years has consisted of: Water jugs, penetrated 3-1 gallon milk jugs of water, didn't penetrate a 4th, Wet phone books: penetration equal to golden saber, greater expansion and more damage to the paper; 1/2" plywood followed by wet phone book: straight trajectory path, some plugging seen with wood around the post, full expansion of bullet, medium denim covering over (yes, you guessed it) wet phone book, identical performance to bare wet phone book, comparable penetration to GS, full expansion
2) Flawed testing? maybe so, but every one of the 230gr .45cal HS bullets I've recovered, including those shot into dry sand, showed classic expansion with one set of exceptions, those exceptions were bullets recovered from 50 yd shooting, they showed less expansion than closer range shots. Bottom line? I'm confident that the bullet will perform it's job today just as well as it would've when I first started using it. Is there better stuff out there? I'm sure there is, so what? Why should I redo a LOT of reliablity/accuracy/performance testing for a minimal improvement in bullet performance? I've had terrible success with stuff like Hornady XTP's hardly ever got expansion with that round. Starfire's were ok but my accuracy was pretty bad. I never shot many of the Black Talon's, they were just too hard to find on a regular basis so I didn't bother getting too worked up about it. My testing with ball ammo gave me awesome penetration but I'm just not happy with THAT much penetration and no chance of expansion. If YOUR own, personal testing has shown different results, that's great, that's probablly why YOU don't like the bullet and is a perfectly acceptable reason. So basically, I'm satisfied with my choice. When it gets cancelled, I'll make another one. To the OP; I guess you can tell that SOME of us still have some fondness for the HS, while others don't. Fun question.... |
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For some, the devil they know is better than the devil they don't know. |
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You're aware there have been advancements in ammunition design since 1992, correct? |
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My understanding is that it stands for Hi Shok Two. The Hyrda-Shok isn't a bad design, and it does what it is supposed to do. However, as others have stated, there are more modern, cheaper, and better designs available. I prefer Ranger T and HST, and the edge goes to HST. shootingmessengers.blogspot.com/2006/09/federal-hst-versus-ranger-t.html |
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The acronym for Federal's HST ammunition has several different unofficial names: homeland security tactical hi-shok tactical home-security tactical hi-shok technology hi-shok two According to Federal, HST does not stand for Hydra-Shok Two or anything like that. The Hydra-Shok's unique feature is a post in the center of the hollowpoint, which the HST does not share. The reason why HST is less costly than Hydra-Shok is because it is made using a newer, less expensive process. |
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+1 That is why I use Gold Dots in my HD gun! |
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I have some Winchester Silvertip 9x23 that I tested. They expanded to .73"! But I remember that it was the failure of a Silvertip that prompted all of this ammunition R&D. So I take my own testing with a grain of salt and I think that a lot of you should too.
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Hydrashock JHP should actually be designated Hydrashock JHPWHP......
"Jacketed Hollow Point Without Hollow Point" |
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RA40T here ...though I have my misgivings about a 180gr .40S&W out of a G22C, but oh well, I'm not the armorer. Just a reserve. Edit to fix smiley |
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No round beats the HST in my opinion. Nor do any do it with such crazy beautiful design either. Look at that freakin, and most importantly, RELIABLE expansion and jacket retention. Gimme 9mm 147gr HST @ $20 for 50 rounds and I'm gonna be just fine. Brent |
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Who cares if it expands or not. As long as there are holes to leak blood everything is just fine.
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Did your friend the SOCOM poser tell you this? |
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Best Choices For Self Defense Ammo You're in good shape with RA40T. |
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FUCK YEAH HE IS!!!! |
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I should have thought to check first... |
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Where do you guys buy 147 gr Ranger T's?
Locally? Walmart? Not been able to find them. |
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I get mine here. |
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