And cheaper ammo because of .mil procurement contracts.

What did Jack Ruby use?  Was that a .38 snub?  Because one shot in the gut and Oswald went down like a sack of cement.  They could use that one.

Any argument that leads one to conclude .40 cal is better than 9mm, pretty much continues to concluding one should skip .40 entirely and roll with full house 10mm.  

.40 cal kicks more and holds less rounds, for a round not that materially more effective than quality 9mm.  With the trade off of slower follow-up shots.  Any training to make one master the .40 better, will also get one even better with 9mm.

The winner of a civilian or police  gun fight is the member who first delivers an effective round on target.  9mm decent ammo is proven to pragmatically be just as effective to a properly placed shot as the same placement of .40 cal rounds, and has the ability to get back on target faster than .40 cal, should the first shot fired not be it.  That makes it the better gun fighter choice.

If you want serious power and weigh the first shot to be the primary shot of interest:10mm

Considering the limited number of rounds fired in training and qualification by the average LEO ( local state fed whatever) I seriously doubt the FBI or anyone else was wearing out and rebuilding 40 cal pistols, and that this would be a significant factor in changing to 9.
My brother the consummate gun guy and primary firearms trainer in his agency probably fired more rounds out of his glock 22 than every one else in the department combined annually for at least a decade. Other than recoil springs he never “wore out” or need to rebuild his pistol or anyone else’s. I don’t buy this aspect of the story at all.

When all is said and done, only hits matter, and small hits are much preferred to big misses.

Blah... blah... blah... the shift to the 147gr subsonic was the holy grail for the FBI a bit black!

A SEAL took a hit from a subsonic 147gr 9mm in "training", and by a stroke of bad luck the wound was horrific!

From that single incident the FBI holy grail was a subsonic 147gr 9mm.

Remember back to the FBI 10mm... it was too much to handle and it was loaded down to a more manageable velocity.

From that the Smith & Wesson .40 short & weak was born!

The last place I would make an ammunition selection is from the FBI!

The .357 SIG has some actual performance to have consideration!

However... muzzle flash in the dark the size of a football should be factored in!

Not to mention the .40 S&W cartridge (initially, 180grns @ about 900fps) fit 9mm-size pistols  -  which led to immediate complaints about 'snappy' recoil; whereas in large-frame 10mm guns (S&W 1076) the equivalent 10mm FBI-Lite load didn't, due to the size and weight of the platform.


Yes, provided you're willing to 'train up' to the proficiency level which the #Real 10mm cartridge requires of its users.

I have never heard of this SEAL/FBI thing in all the years of reading and shooting and competing.

I'm not necessarily doubting it but I would love to read more about it, got any links?

That's because the FBI switch to the "Holy Grail" 147gr was a result of their perceived failure of the 115gr SilverTip during the Miami Shootout...not some super-secret SEAL accident revealed by some guy on an internet forum 35 years later.

Despite the fact that the moment the 9mm transversed that guys chest and shredded his heart, he was going to die.

With pistols the shot placement would matter. I do agree people act like bullet technology hasn’t been the same for 45 and 40. I rather shoot 45 over 9mm. I think 45 isn’t that bad recoiling. I shoot it in uspsa in 3gun and I can run it fast. I’m not running light loads I’m just going with factory 230gr. I think the magazine capacity is a big reason why people like 9mm so much. With the rise of 2011’s I would love to shoot one in 45acp, 11 or 13 round mags in 2011’s makes a difference. Watching the garand thumb video with ballistic dummies the 45 would break multiple ribs while 9mm would hit one or pass between two ribs. The larger diameter does make a difference because like previously stated it can Nick something because it opens up so much.

A fair point, and certainly one can't deny .40 and .45 benefit from improvements to technology too.  The item of note is that of the 3, 9mm ball and early generation defense was the least efficient, where it would ice-pick through, or otherwise not do a great job of expanding and dumping its energy in an effective manner.  So the degree of improvement in 9mm bullet technology was more dramatic than the degree of improvement in the others, allowing 9mm defense loads to get closer to parity to the other two, is I think the FBI logic, and one I buy.

This 100%.  It's government people!  I'll add the military to that list. Same with LE agencies.  Many more woman, & people who didn't grow up a gun person.  

Not breaking bad on Ryan or TNZ but if we use the above logic, why not move to a .32 or even a .22?  Neither is considered useful for self defense but in my experience, a .32 will dang sure do the job.

Chuckling

It came down to three things

The 10mm S&Ws were to heavy for
the lawyers and accounts to carry on their belts

9mm is cheaper because there is so much of it made

The Glock 9mm is the answer to everything
(Just ask a Glock fan lol, yes I have 3and no I’m not)

And a final thought, the last FBI Agent I saw in gods
county was still carrying a full size 1911……

There's not one thing 10mm does better than 40 when it comes to antipersonnel work.  Both expand to the same diameter, and both easily meet penetration requirements.

Only if you’re cherry-picking a particular level of 10mm factory ammo, like comparing a .40S&W 180grn @ 1050fps with a 10mm 180grn @ 1050fps. But that’s really NOT a legit .40 v. 10mm comparison. That’s a .40 v. .40 (Fake 10mm) comparison.

Disregarding the handloading possibilities for both cartridges, and focusing only on factory ammo, the real, full-power 10mm exceeds the .40S&W in penetrative capability against humans where intermediate barriers are present in every typical 10mm/.40-cal bullet-weight up to 180grns, which is where the .40 tops out in factory ammo. This is especially important, as Lazyengineer pointed out, in the context of a first-shot hit that imparts serious velocity and weight.

Beyond 180grns (i.e., with the 200grn and 220grn bullets),  the 10mm significantly betters the 40 in penetration against intermediate barriers, whether the projectile in question is, e.g., a 200grn XTP-HP, 200grn FMJ-FP, and certainly if topped with 200grn or 220grn HC boolits.

So given the demonstrably improved “street effectiveness” of the 9mm for most EDC situations, the next logical step up in weight, velocity, and penetration, is to the 10mm, not the .40.

And as much as I love the .45acp, it’s not in the mix either, due to poor penetrative ability (a function of its sectional density and lower velocity).

I agree with their rationale

Because you need a certain amount of mass to achieve minimum required penetration. It's such a tiresome discussion as it just keeps going round and round. All handgun rounds suck. The FBI designed a bunch of tests to find some that sucked less than others and that's where we are now. Everybody wants to argue about their favorite but they all suck. Pick a gun you like to carry and shoot well in 9/40/45 whatever and move on with your life.

When does penetration become a liability? We know it does at some point but everyone has a different threshold.

Have you ever shot anything with a handgun? A 250gr swc @ 950-1200fps doesn't suck. A 158gr-170gr @ 1200fps doesn't suck.

Compared to a rifle they absolutely do

I'd rather use a .45colt or .357 than any 556 for coyote, deer, bear, or elk.

Handguns don't suck as much as people think.

To each their own but that would put you in the tiniest of minorities. Some places wouldn't even allow those calibers to be used. Either way going to bigger rounds like you are talking about is a bit of a shift from 9/40/45 we see being used for duty weapons. Big heavies that do great in hunting probably not so good in a lot of urban type situations.

Let's face it most Feds are not shooters. And government agencies always go for the cheaper option. 9mm makes more sense for the average agent. Meanwhile the HRT gets 45acp because they can shoot. Regular agents get a cheap Glock. HRT gets an expensive custom 1911.

Old man advice still rings true today. Go with the largest caliber you can handle. Meaning whatever caliber you shoot the best. If you suck at shooting, then get a high capacity Glock 9mm. If you're awesome at shooting, then a single stacked 1911 45acp might make more sense.

Small statutes? Are larger rules bad here?

Nick

Don't get me wrong, I get the capacity thing for law enforcement. I don't think all cops should start carrying N frames or .357s, although Id be interested to see the results academically.

My point is that handguns don't end with 9/40/45s.

What places don't allow .357s or .45 colts for big game? I bet there's a lot more places that don't allow 556 than the other way around.

I culled deer with a 556 untill I decided it was barely marginal.

Lol, how'd my spell check do that? Statures.

HRT switched to the Glock 17 six years ago. Before the Springfield Bureau Model, they used Browning Hi Powers.

Your implication that only inexperienced shooters can shoot 9mm better is false. With everything else being equal, experienced shooters will shoot 9mm faster and more accurately than .40 and .45. Shot timers, quals, and competitive shooting proves this.

Correct.

I've seen people dead from .22 revolvers. I've also seen a .45 bounce off a guys scapula and exit the top of his shoulder. Not hyperbole here.

A common theme with all guys that were DRT were multiple holes in them. 9mm equals more rounds on tap. It is the best all around compromise.

The 9mm is what, 90% as good as a .45ACP (which I love), or call it 85% or 70% as effective but the Glock 17 9mm holds 100% more rounds than a 1911 in .45ACP.

Now considering 10%, 20% or heaven forbid, 30% of shots fired in a gun fight miss their intended target, that loss percentage of the 9 .45ACP rounds in 1911's 8 round magazine (with a round chambered) is pretty serious.  The 18 rounds (17 round mag with round chambered) of 9mm then becomes a strong argument.

If one is decidedly against a 9mm, then the .40S&W is also a logical choice, IMHO.

Missed shots don't count.

Anyone else old enough to remember the first time the FBI said the 9MM was the best stopper out there?

We read report after report of officers shot/killed after making good hits on people and when we got new handguns the Chief ordered 686's.  When we got info on the FBI shoot out in Miami most of us were glad we didn't feel the need to change again.

How many fairies can dance on the head of a pin?

that's the essence of the caliber quandary.

shot placement anbd penetration are what matter.

Handguns dont have "knock down power".

There seem to be a lot of agencies out there that run 9mm and  I dont see horror story after horror story of failure to stop.
NYPD
Chicago PD
Philadelphia PD
DC Metro
Dallas PD
Miami-Dade Police Department
Michigan State Police
Baltimore County Police
Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department
Washington State Patrol
Johnson County Sheriff's Office, KS
Hancock County Sheriff’s Department, Maine
Hawaii Department of Public Safety
New Jersey State Police
North Dakota Highway Patrol
Oklahoma Highway Patrol
Texas DPS
Georgia State Patrol
Nebraska State Patrol
U.S. Customs and Border Protection
Milwaukee Police Department
Sumter PD, South Carolina
Lloyd Harbor Police Department
Ohio Highway Patrol
Portland OR
Las Vegas Metro PD
Topeka PD
West Virginia State Police
South Carolina Highway Patrol
Washington DC Police
Michigan State Police
Baltimore County Police
Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department
Washington State Patrol
Johnson County Sheriff's Office, KS
Hancock County Sheriff’s Department, Maine
Hawaii Department of Public Safety
New Jersey State Police
North Dakota Highway Patrol
Oklahoma Highway Patrol
Texas DPS
Georgia State Patrol
Nebraska State Patrol
U.S. Customs and Border Protection
Milwaukee Police Department
Sumter PD, South Carolina
Lloyd Harbor Police Department
Ohio Highway Patrol
Portland OR
Las Vegas Metro PD
Topeka PD
West Virginia State Police
South Carolina Highway Patrol
(List may have changed since I got this info) but you get the point. Lots of these agencies have a fair number of shootings a year.
And there are agencies that run 40, 45, 357 SIG.


I teach firearms for LE. I got my agency to switch from Glock Model 22 to Glock Model 45.  we now run Speer 124gr +P GDHP. I can tell you form now 3 years worth of academy classes and requals that officers shoot higher scores in quals and the academy with 9 over 40.  Thier groupings on qual targets are much tighter with 9 than 40.  Officers have more consistent groups, small dispersion of shots with 9mm. Officers are more confident now they can hit more accurately and with concentrated groups.

Scores have gone up significantly. In fact I raised the minimum qualification to 80% from the previous 70% for officers one the job more than one year. Out of the academy they have to shoot 70% to qualify but must improve after that. why should someone never be expected to improve over their career????

This is a topic that will never be settled. all of the empirical data will not sway anyone from their emotional bias.  The reality is; as several have previously stated, handguns suck for stopping people compared to
rifles and shotguns.
But, a pistol is way better than a sharp stick!

There is no right answer and whatever you carry, shoot it proficiently and accurately.

Yep.  I remember talking to a South Florida cop about departmental caliber choices back in the late 1980s (‘88 or ‘89).

He said you could always 100% identify a cop who’d survived a shoot-out with his 9mm duty pistol. ..... He was now carrying a .45 or 10mm pistol in his holster.

A poster on another forum is a retired firearms instructor with LAPD. He said they get reports of LE shootings from all the agencies in LA County, using 9mm, .40 and .45. He hadn’t seen a shooting where caliber made a difference.

But what DOES make a difference is having enough bullets in you gun to cover your missed shots.

How many cases can you find where capacity was an issue? And I'm not talking overall round count. I mean someone dying because their gun was shot dry and they didn't have time to reload. I know there are a couple old time gunfights where guys with revolvers couldn't reload from their drop pouches but which might as well be loading a SAA. Anything more modern?

Look back when guys carried revolvers. They used less bullets to get the job done.
Attached File

If I can get 17 rounds in a 1911 format gun the size of a Glock 19, why would I go with a single stack? I don't get hung up on capacity, but I don't see a reason these days to carry less.

Attached File

I find single stacks conceal a lot better for me. I was carrying my berretta the other day and the corner of the spare mag prints a lot more than a single stack. It's also twice as thick as a single stack mag making it less comfortable iwb.

Single stack grips can be longer than double stack guns and print less at the heal of the grip on me as well.

I carry OWB at 3 or 4 o'clock as opposed to AIWB so carrying a gun with a thicker grip isn't an issue. I love my single stack 1911's, but this Staccato gives me the best of both worlds.

I've been interested in a full size 30 caliber handgun for 10 years...

Anyone who has done testing, bookkeeping, or pretty much anything with numbers and statistics knows that those numbers or statistics can be made to lie, deceive or say what someone wants.

I'll readily admit that 9mm ammunition has improved by leaps and bounds since the 1980's.  Bullet design, propellants have all dramatically improved 9mm performance, and made it a viable anti-personnel round.  However if we apply those same improvements in propellant, and bullet design to the larger 40 and 45 caliber bullets and cartridges, simple logic tells me that those larger bullets will be more effective anti-personnel projectiles.

A previous posting said that it is unlikely that any emotional attachments to a given cartridge, or firearm are probably not going to be changed by any new statistics, whether those statistics are valid or not.  I agree with that statement.  

Regardless of which cartridge or firearm someone takes into a fight, the more rounds they have the better, the more powerful the cartridge the better, and the more accurately they can shoot the better.  All those factors (power, accuracy, number of rounds) are valid considerations.  

Someone with a 44 magnum will loose a gunfight to someone with a smaller cartridge if the shooter with the smaller cartridge can shoot BOTH faster and more accurately.  A 32 ACP bullet delivered into someone's brain stem will always win a gunfight if the 44 mag bullet that misses it's target.  So, bullet performance is only one of a number of factors.

ETA:  I don't believe the FBI's statistics about firearms any more than I believe Dr. Fauci's contentions about Covid 19 and the various "vaccines".

USSOCOM uses 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. They don't seem to be too concerned with the whole debate.

The description of FBI hires is spot on dead nuts accurate. I was at the FBI Academy 5 different times in my last 10 years on duty. Every single time they had a new class of kids starting their training. I do mean KIDS. Seriously I had a paternal instinct to pick them up and burp them. NONE of them had any law enforcement experience except watching TV shows. Most had degrees in law or accounting because that's what the FBI wants. None, not a single one, would know what to do if they had to answer a 911 dispatch. Or for that matter deal with a member of the John Q Public, which is why they are so detached from reality and have ZERO people skills. Frankly the FBI brass does not like real cops/deputies polluting their in-bred archaic organization. Its been a political hack tool from Day 1 with J.Edgar Hoover and that has not changed a bit.

I've written plenty of rants over the years tearing apart the FBI's alleged "testing" and more laughable their "experience". Specifically the Miami shootout and the flood of CYA bool manure flooding from the FBI Brass offices after that and which still continues. To date, I have never gotten a single word of truth HOW the FBI determined that formula XYZ was the best medium to imitate human bodies. Even the FBI boot lickers in the gun world try to shut down questions about that. Another "FBI Truth" is the amount of needed penetration for effectiveness. Says who??? The closest they get to a scene or victim is a BIG MAYBE months down the road on some report filed by a local agency which may be missing details or a competent coroner report.

In my 30+ years in uniform and the last half being in CSI, I have never seen an FBI agent at any autopsy or even at a shooting scene. But the exalted experts who sit in offices in the echo chambers in Washington D.C. are elevated to shooting & crime scene experts?!!?!! The US Border Patrol has more shootings per year than ALL Federal agencies combined and they say 10 inches penetration in jello is plenty. But the all knowing FBI totally ignores the real experience of people on the streets and deserts. Bottom line: the FBI is a premier agency at wasting billions of tax money for BS politically correct garbage. Every time the FBI Bulletin comes out there's always an article about "Leadership" which is a total scream to real police not velcro'd to an office chair. What do you know about leadership if you don't get out of your office chair??

At the time of the Miami shootout there already was street proven 9mm loads, called Winchester Silvertip and Federal 9BP-LE. But the FBI brass had to cover their overpaid butts and spend countless millions to develop the "perfect LE caliber" the 10mm full power. But the FBI couldn't even meet their own recommendation and watered down the 10mm to what became .40 S&W "the best LE caliber" ever. Now they're back to 9mm is best. You cannot make up this stuff up!

USSOCOM is completely irrelevant when discussing CCW, LE, FBI, etc.

After the Miami shooting in 1986 where several FBI agents were killed by suspects who already had fatal wounds before killing the agents the FBI came up with their test suite to find a more effective caliber. It is mostly penetration tests, will the round go through a windshield or does it bounce off, can it go through the simulated car door, does it go the "appropriate" distance in ballistic gel, neither too deep nor too shallow. Can it still penetrate the appropriate amount if you have several layers of denim in front of the ballistic gel simulating heavy clothing. When the FBI tested the available calibers and ammunition at the time the ONLY cartridge that passed the testing was the 10mm, so they adopted it and the S&W 1006. And almost immediately started to get complaints from agents that the guns had too much recoil, the grip was too big and were too hard to shoot. So a 10mm "light" FBI load was developed, and then the 40 S&W cartridge was developed and the FBI switched to 40 S&W, and still got a lot of complaints from their agents that the guns recoiled too much and were too hard to shoot.
The ammo company engineers, for the first time having a scientifically repeatable test goal for their ammo designs, immediately went to work to develop ammo in all calibers that could meet the FBI test requirements. And they succeeded, today you can get ammunition in 9mm, 357 SIG, 38 Super, 40 S&W, 10mm and 45 ACP that will meet all of the FBI's requirements; and I believe that the 30 Super will be added to that list as soon as it is tested by the FBI. Even the 380 ACP may meet the requirements with the next generation of bullets, the current generation have almost enough penetration and do expand fairly reliably. The FBI went back to 9mm because it was available in the most gun designs and the lightest recoil of any cartridge that met their testing requirements; don't be surprised if the FBI allows their agents to use the 30 Super after it meets the test requirements; and even the 380 ACP if an ammo company can come up with a bullet that meets the FBI test requirements.
The FBI has a FEW agents who are extremely good with a gun, but like all police forces MOST of their agents would rather not ever have to shoot a gun, not even in qualification much less at a person on the street. The lightest recoiling cartridge that meets the established test requirements is what the FBI is going to pick.

Right, because this wasn't settled 8,700 times already on this nor any other board

Tactical Illumination + Close Range Anti-Personal Flamethrower...

BIGGER_HAMMER

Q says they switched to cause an ammo shortage so regular Joe couldn't get 9mm.  Mmkkkay