I picked up some of the 147gr. 9mm, and 165gr. .40cal.

What are the general feelings of this ammo? Is there something better than this out there?

Thanks

A lot of LEO's use them and the "claw" out very good!

If they are reliable in your gun, buy a bunch and your good for carry or HD purposes.

It depends on what exactly you're talking about.  

Ranger "T" Series (product code RA9T and RA40TA)
-or-
Supreme SXT (product code S9 and S401)

Winchester's labeling/naming scheme is exceptionally confusing.  It also doesn't help that Supreme SXT and Ranger T bullet designs look very similar even though they are different.  Winchester's (primary) LE ammo is called Ranger "T" Series.  Although that is what it's actually called, the boxes just say "Ranger" on them and then they put "SXT" after the bullet weight on the end of the box.  Meanwhile there is a whole other line of Winchester ammo called Supreme SXT.  It's really qutie confusing.

Product codes leave no question as to what ammo is being discussed.  What is the product number on the boxes of what you have?

The short of it is Ranger T = very good, Supreme SXT = fair at best.

It's the Supreme SXT.

So I should seek some other ammo then?

Quoted: It's the Supreme SXT. So I should seek some other ammo then?

Well, Supreme SXT is not the best stuff out there.

"Supreme SXT: Redesigned "civilian" version of the original Black Talon bullet. The cartridge consists of a copper-jacketed bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The bullet has eight serrations on its meplat, and no talons. Supreme SXT is packaged in boxes of 20 cartridges.

   According to Olin-Winchester public relations, the Supreme SXT bullet design has not been factory tested in standard ordnance gelatin because it was not designed to meet police ammunition performance specifications. As a result, there's no valid and verifiable performance data available from Winchester or the FBI.

   We find Winchester's attitude troubling because they're marketing a personal defense bullet (a life safety device) in which they confessed to us that they've no idea how well (or poorly) it performs. Therefore, we advise you not to buy and use Supreme SXT until Winchester gets its act together and coughs up performance data for this cartridge." FirearmsTacticalInstitute

Check out this image.  The amount of expansion is not so good.  And along with poor expansion you get a good chance of excessive penetration (like more than 18 inches):


source: FirearmsTacticalInsitute Note that these rounds were fired from a 3.5" barreled GLOCK 26.

As far as I'm concerned, Supreme SXT is little more than a Ranger T lookalike for the civilian market with dubious performace.  There are lots of readily available choices that are substantially better.

Wow, that isn't very comforting. Does anyone know where I can pick up some Ranger online?

Thanks

Check out your next gun show

Gold dot is a good option. There aren't any shops that carry it in your area?

There are no gunshows in my state.
Also, the shops around here don't carry Ranger. I can probably get Gold Dots. They are Speer right?

Quoted: There are no gunshows in my state. Also, the shops around here don't carry Ranger. I can probably get Gold Dots. They are Speer right?

Speer is the manufacturer but you can also get gold dots in Black Hills, Proload, and I believe Double Tap. Those can all be purchased online.

Northwest Loading Supply usually carries some Ranger Ts.  Last I looked they had 147gr which is a highly regarded cartridge.  Like other posters have mentioned, the Speer Gold Dot bullet is a good choice and is not only available loaded in Speer cartridges, but many smaller ammo companies use the GD bullet as well.

The Speer Gold Dot's are not the cheapest of ammo selections.  (Yes I understand that the Gold Dots are not for plinking/practicing.)

Quoted: The Speer Gold Dot's are not the cheapest of ammo selections.  (Yes I understand that the Gold Dots are not for plinking/practicing.)

Make sure your not buying the 20rd "boutique" boxes.  I'm not aware of any loads that aren't available in 50rd boxes.  It may require ordering on-line to get the 50rd boxes vs. going to your local gun shop.

Go get the new issue of Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement magazine. There is a good article about the Rangers.

Quoted: Quoted: The Speer Gold Dot's are not the cheapest of ammo selections.  (Yes I understand that the Gold Dots are not for plinking/practicing.) Make sure your not buying the 20rd "boutique" boxes.  I'm not aware of any loads that aren't available in 50rd boxes.  It may require ordering on-line to get the 50rd boxes vs. going to your local gun shop.

Those little boxes you are refering to are the only ones I could find.  And I had to order those!  The closest place for me to buy Gold Dots over the counter is  90 mile drive from here.  One would think that in a city of 85,000 people, there would be a decent chance of finding adequate ammo.  There is only one gunstore in the whole city. (Scheels)

I'll have to do some more search work to find better deals.

For some reason SXT in .45 caliber seems to cut through Level 2 Kevlar vests. I got this straight from people in two different Federal agencies, who have access to test data on the subject.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Speer Gold Dot's are not the cheapest of ammo selections.  (Yes I understand that the Gold Dots are not for plinking/practicing.) Make sure your not buying the 20rd "boutique" boxes.  I'm not aware of any loads that aren't available in 50rd boxes.  It may require ordering on-line to get the 50rd boxes vs. going to your local gun shop. Those little boxes you are refering to are the only ones I could find.  And I had to order those!  The closest place for me to buy Gold Dots over the counter is  90 mile drive from here.  One would think that in a city of 85,000 people, there would be a decent chance of finding adequate ammo.  There is only one gunstore in the whole city. (Scheels) I'll have to do some more search work to find better deals.

I order almost all my "good" ammo online.

Quoted: Wow, that isn't very comforting. Does anyone know where I can pick up some Ranger online? Thanks

Try [email protected]

I've bought some from him and he is a great guy!

Quoted: What are the general feelings of this ammo? Is there something better than this out there?

Shot placement is still more important than anything.  I read somewhere about tests on live pigs and cadavers in which it was found that the actual Black Talons were a mere 3% more lethal than standard hollow points.  I want that 3%, honestly.  You see, bullets damage tissue and kill in two ways: tissue splash(like a rock hitting the water and causing it to separate); and a perminent cavity created by contacting flesh.  Bullets incapacitate by overloading pain receptors, cutting off/reducing blood flow to the brain, and by destroying the brain out right.  Pain is reduced by the Sympathetic Nervous System during a stressful confrontation- so don't count on it.  Destroying the brain isn't easy.  The brain isn't as large a target as the cranium it resides in, and a skull can deflect a bullet enough to miss the brain.  On top of this their head will bob sway as they move.  Preventing blood flow to the brain is the most reliable(if a trained officer hits a human 1/4, then how can the average gun owner expect to hit a human head?).  Hitting any arteries in the body contribute to incapacitation and are categorized as 'dynamic wounds'('adynamic wounds' are those that do not contribute to incapacitation).  Now, for tissue splash the bullets impact forces back tissue and any that is stretched to the breaking point(especially important if its arterial tissue) might as well have been hit by the bullet itself.  Pistol cartridges DO NOT have the intense velocity required to create significant tissue splash- hence I prefer larger caliber rounds.  Only the perminent cavity is important, and since it is created by contact with the bullet, a greater surface area causes greater damage: JHP > FMJ.  BUT as bullets slow down they no longer destroy all tissue they contact, and arteries can stretch around the smooth edges of FMJ's or JHP's.  The old Black Talon(renamed the Ranger SXT for pr reasons) had a simple yet ingenious innovation.  A reverse taper jacket(thicker at the point than the base) was implemented that prevented the jacket from simply folding over backwards, and caused it to stick straight out to the sides.  The sharp edges of the split jacket will cut any arteries that would stretch around a slowed and smooth bullet, thus causing slightly greater lethality.

Quoted: Quoted: Wow, that isn't very comforting. Does anyone know where I can pick up some Ranger online? Thanks Try [email protected] I've bought some from him and he is a great guy!

+1 Same here.  Jerry will take care of you.  Great guy to deal with.

556man

+1 for jerry.  Just bought 500 rounds of 147gr ranger 9mm from him.

I have some for sell if you are interested

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=89&t=291106

Speaking of  Winchester ammo, I bought this box among with 20 others back when it was first introduced. Is this ammo still worth carrying for self-defense. The ammo must be over 10 years old. I also have the same dated stuff in the .40 cal too.

For carry I would not personaly for legal reasons just because if you end up in court.. As for 10 years old I would not woory till about 30 years..

Quoted: Speaking of  Winchester ammo, I bought this box among with 20 others back when it was first introduced. Is this ammo still worth carrying for self-defense. The ammo must be over 10 years old. I also have the same dated stuff in the .40 cal too. img382.imageshack.us/img382/7934/p82130378us.jpg img382.imageshack.us/img382/5522/p82130665nf.jpg

Sell it to collectors, and buy new ammo.

Better to be in court than to be dead.  


Remington Golden Sabers are also another great SD choice.  Something in a 124 grain.  P+ if it doesn't reduce your ability to control the weapon and place your shots rapidly.

Yes, and the Black Talon is 10 year old hollowpoint technology. There are several newer and better choices than it.

Quoted: Yes, and the Black Talon is 10 year old hollowpoint technology. There are several newer and better choices than it.

What he said.