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22 Magnum.

5.7mm SUMMARY
The 5.7mm is a small-caliber, high-velocity, rebated rim, bottlenecked, rifle cartridge. They are the fastest, smallest and lightest rounds tested. They are the only rifle rounds included and only because this chambering has a pistol that employs it. Designed and proven to have better wound ballistic terminal performance than the 9mm, better barrier performance especially versus armor with low recoil and lightweight it is a misunderstood and controversial cartridge. This is the first large scale test involving the 5.7 alongside other more traditional calibers hollow points in the U.S. Only a couple of agencies involved in this test use this cartridge.

Starting in 2002, NATO conducted several tests to replace the 9×19mm cartridge. The tests compared the FNH 5.7×28mm cartridge and the HK 4.6×30mm cartridge. The NATO group recommended the 5.7×28mm cartridge, recording vastly superior performance in testing. Comparing the results of the NATO test and one other federal test with this test has confirmed our results. 5.7mm rounds use tumbling and velocity as its destructive mechanism. The 5.7mm round is similar to the 5.56mm in form and function but weighs less and has lower velocity, but the projectile is longer than the 5.56 making the center of gravity (CG) farther aft which greatly aids in its ability to tumble reliably and consistently and increase its wound size. The variances in design and capability of the tested rounds was vast. Results were the most varied of any caliber tested. There were 4 duty rounds that demonstrated superior characteristics over the others in all grading criteria. Many of the other rounds are simply training rounds. Great penetration, reliability, consistency and barrier performance proved to be very easy to grade.

1. Penetration was surprisingly deep and consistent for the duty rounds regardless of barriers in Phase 2/3 and very close to the best from the 45ACP and 10mm hollow points averaging just over 17 inches.
2. The rounds exhibited near perfect reliability with no tested rounds failing to function/tumble in any phase regardless of media/barriers. None of the rounds fragmented unless designed to do so. Shot to shot consistency was extremely high similar to the solid copper rounds and the FMJs. Each wound channel looked completely different but the measurements were very close and consistent.
3. Barrier degradation was almost zero. 5.7 rounds are the closest thing to barrier blind that was tested. During a couple of the test shoots certain agencies  introduced different more robust barriers and the 5.7 continued its flawless minimal degradation results.
4. Measuring the Permanent Wound Cavity (PWC) in gel proved to be very difficult. High speed, tumbling rounds create a compression which results in larger than actual wound channels in non-compressible IWBA gel similar to what some of the solid copper rounds did only worse. Also, the rounds normally followed a fairly linear path but in some instances wound paths were curved. Lastly, the wound diameter is small while the bullet is in line but is much wider during tumbling, requiring almost infinite measurements to be made to accurately calculate the actual PWC in gel similar to the frangible rounds. Averages could be made but all our other measurements were so exact and rechecked that we decided to not estimate and be inaccurate. It was decided that wound channel dimensions would be more accurate and realistic in Phase 4/5 in actual tissue where exact measurements could be made and tissue dissection could verify tumbling and overall damage. The Phase 4/5 results were extremely surprising and much extra testing was done as many agencies wanted to be present for comparisons to more traditional rounds. Measurements taken on over 100 shots verified that wound channels through tissue with or without barriers equaled or exceeded that of hollow points in all calibers! There was a solid copper round that produced larger average wound dimensions. As previously mentioned rounds over 2,000 fps can create stretches that exceed the body’s limits. In a few select tests rifle rounds >3,000 fps were tested to analyze the wounds in tissue. Dissection showed tearing, which increases overall wounding. Only minimal tearing was ever witnessed during 5.7mm testing and we believe the effects were nominal and did not contribute to any measurements or data.

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I know you jest, but they're not that far removed from one another. A .22 WMR from a rifle is about on par with 5.7 from a pistol. Virtually the same weight and velocity.

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Except there are literally no worthwhile .22 mag bullets. all thin jacket, lead core stuff.

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Yet there are those stories of people being shot by P90's and refusing to drop, and even complaining asking police to stop shooting them (happened in my old agency).

The round obviously works and had numerous advantages over typical handgun loads.

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None of the FN loads are any good, including SS190. SS190 is the best of the bunch, and it only gets about 10" in bare gel. The other LE round they make, the SS198, is even worse. Out of all of them, the SS197 is actually the best. It's the only one that stands a snowball's chance of passing any portion of the FBI test.

There's one round made by a boutique ammo manufacturer that's basically a copy of a prototype AP round made by some company in Europe, and it's decent. I think it would probably pass the FBI protocols. But it's expensive as all getout, and there's like a two month waiting list for it, plus there have been some people reporting bulged cases. It's loaded right on the edge with custom powder, which is how it gets enough juice to do what it does.

It's really a crying shame because the P90 is such a great little weapon. Contrary to intuition, I've found the magazines to be some of the most reliable ever made. If they had just made the round a tiny bit more powerful, just enough to get like 15" in bare gel, then it would have been a viable concept. The only thing that killed the P90 is it's just not powerful enough to be taken seriously. Had it been able to hold its own with 9mm I have to think that it would have been extremely popular with law enforcement. Like I said, it's just a crying shame.

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It's about $2/rd, which is higher than most of the 20rd boxes of self defense ammo. it's typically a stated 4-6 week turn around because they have to have the bullets made on a cnc machine..  You really don't get bulged cases in 5.7. You get popped or pierced primers and if you're getting those then yeah, too hot. This load (T6B from Elite Ammo, or the Black Dragon Fang from Vanguard) are no where near loaded on the edge..

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None of the FN loads are any good, including SS190. SS190 is the best of the bunch, and it only gets about 10" in bare gel. The other LE round they make, the SS198, is even worse. Out of all of them, the SS197 is actually the best. It's the only one that stands a snowball's chance of passing any portion of the FBI test.

There's one round made by a boutique ammo manufacturer that's basically a copy of a prototype AP round made by some company in Europe, and it's decent. I think it would probably pass the FBI protocols. But it's expensive as all getout, and there's like a two month waiting list for it, plus there have been some people reporting bulged cases. It's loaded right on the edge with custom powder, which is how it gets enough juice to do what it does.

It's really a crying shame because the P90 is such a great little weapon. Contrary to intuition, I've found the magazines to be some of the most reliable ever made. If they had just made the round a tiny bit more powerful, just enough to get like 15" in bare gel, then it would have been a viable concept. The only thing that killed the P90 is it's just not powerful enough to be taken seriously. Had it been able to hold its own with 9mm I have to think that it would have been extremely popular with law enforcement. Like I said, it's just a crying shame.

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SS190 does a whole lot better than 10" in bare gel.

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SS190 does a whole lot better than 10" in bare gel.

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The linked pistol study has all kinds of data on 9mm, .40, .45acp, 10mm and 5.7.  There is nothing wrong with a 5.7 inside of 100y out of the pistol barrel and using the factory loads.  There might be arguments from 25-50y, but I think nothing overwhelms one vs. another.  Inside 25y, the 5.7 is flying and does what it is designed to do: poke holes and tumble.

The linked study is very good.

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They specifically said it was 10%. I can't find it, but there's another FN video where they shoot gel through body armor with the same results. I really don't know enough about gel to offer any explanations.

It definitely would have required some kind of locking breech mechanism at that pressure, which is totally viable in the P90. The problem was that NATO required a handgun in the same caliber, and I don't think that would have been viable at those pressures without doing something crazy.

I think the handgun was another major reason the project ultimately failed. It limited the P90's potential, and it never really panned out. I'm an average sized dude, and it's almost too chunky for me.

Then again, without the handgun it can't replace 9mm, and that was the whole objective in the first place. NATO pretty much came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth fielding a new caliber in addition to 9mm. That and you've got short 5.56 weapons that are roughly the same size and weight as the P90 with slightly better ballistics. Just not quite as streamlined and have a smaller capacity.

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I've seen a story referenced about a Jacksonville FL SWAT shoot with a P90. Many on the internet make the claim that the bad guy asked to stop being shot. Then the actual incident report was found, and it was 1 swat member who shot the bad guy with 1 FA burst, and the suspect expired on the scene... It's not like other calibers have ever failed to stop a bad guy..

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Bad info. ^

NATO couldn’t diplomatically settle the dispute between Belgium and Germany, so there was no standard selected and some members went with FN and others HK.



@6G

By your talking points and study data, you should be shooting 230g FMJ, but I’m guessing 124g JHP?

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From what Jay has told me, the FSN pistol can actually handle hotter loads than the p90/Ps90 action. I believe when the .224BOZ was around, it hit better #s than .22TCM, but it destroyed the breach face after so many rounds because of the action type. The .22TCM's downfall is the case capacity is needed for loads, and that means you have to run this specific 40gr JSP bullet to do so, all while keeping the OAL down.

Can't argue there. a 10.5" AR still has literally No disadvantage over the P90. It may be 5-6" longer, but it has HUGE mod support, and superior ballistics. Now, if you need some suppressed full auto platform capable of cycling subsonic ammunition that will defeat IIIA armor, then P90 is your cake.

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The subs will defeat body armor?

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Yes. The original 55gr and now 62gr (I'm wondering if the increase in weight was to help aid in cycling reliability?) will penetrate many layers of soft IIIA, and even rigid IIIA :D All at under 1000 fps. It all about that bullet composition. I do not know what the 62gr bullet is (perhaps inhouse), but the 55gr was a Sierra Match King. Here's the 62gr version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhAMp3A0coM

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Well color me surprised! But does it have enough left over to do anything useful? What kind of penetration does something like that get in bare gel to begin with, anyhow?

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22 Magnum.