Not all HP's are rendered ineffective by heavy clothing. You have to find the ones that expand ever after heavy clothes. I used to work in our Sheriffs office property & evidence section. I have seen lots of bullets recoved from human bodies and there are quite a few that have been said to be ineffective when in real life they are. 230 gr .45 Hydra shoks do work in flesh. The only ones i avoid are the ones that fragment really bad (lightweight[165] +P). I have tested 100's of rounds myself and compared them to what I have seen in real life shootings. In .45 in a 4 inch or better barrell, 230, 200, or 200 +P. In a smaller barrell, 185 or 185 +P. I have found the Remington Golden Sabres work extremely well, even after heavy clothes. And yes, the old 230 Black Talon, aka Ranger Talon, are awesome. OUt of a 4 inch or longer barrell, 230 Golden Sabres or Black Talons are almost identical in their performance. I have 230 Ranger Talons in my Sig P220 and 230 Golden Sabres in my 1911.