HERE IT IS the answer; "Why should i buy a pistol in .45 GAP?"

So you can say , "I got one and you dont!"

Its mine and i like it.

I hope nobody buys a 45 GAP pistol and I turn out to be 1 who did and it becomes some collectors item for Mr High $$$$ fancy pants gun freak.

Chances of it happening = SLIM
Having something not EVERYONE has got = Excellent. Noone want to bum some of my ammo!

Like it (haven't shot it) or not (haven't shot it) the 45GAP is here to stay, so get over it and shoot what you like.

GAP = GOD AWFUL PISTOL

Quoted: If XD's came in .45 ACP i think the Gap would already be Dead. Just my opinion

I agree, the XD at the gunshop I buy from have been there for months, when I put my .40 on layaway the guy said he would make a helluva deal just to get it out of there.  The Glocks in GAP are same way.

All of the female police officers I work with are perfectly content with their 9,40s and the few that carry 45s. Which at the dept I work at most officers carry 9s or 40s anyway there is afew old timers packing the series 70s they've had for years. I have large enough hands that I usually run into problems finding something that is large enough to be comfortable. Me and subcompacts just do not mix, the only one I have is a old Star M40 that I rarely shoot due to this.

I just do not see the 45 G.A.P. hanging around, or if it does it will be one of the many that are practically obsolete and only used by the "roll your own" crowd. All of this was the same reason I did not go with the 357 Sig, it works well just theres no 357 Sig ammo down here that is readily available and when I find it, it ain't cheap.

ETA: I do understand why it was developed like someone said a while back, I have large hands so I'll pay it no attention......I guess I should be happy my hands are large to carry just about anything, and I am a big guy fat guy so I can carry a full size 1911 and it is practically unnoticeable.

I was going to poise this question and was pleasantly surprised to find a lengthy discussion of the issue.

I recently returned from three weeks at Fort Bliss; while there one of the issues of Army Times was headlined - dump your 9mm and get a .45 - evidently the Army is considering a return to the .45 for "stopping power."  They won't be reissuing 1911 - it will be  new pistol.  After reading the comments here, I wonder if GAP might not be a good option - it seems that when contracting for such a large purchase that must fit so many people, the GAP might at least be something to consider.

As a side note, the article indicated that soldiers preferred a pistol with an external safety - my thought was WTF??  That sounds more like Army propaganda.

Quoted: GAP = GOD AWFUL PISTOL

So, would you care to expound on your theory?

Quoted: I was going to poise this question and was pleasantly surprised to find a lengthy discussion of the issue. I recently returned from three weeks at Fort Bliss; while there one of the issues of Army Times was headlined - dump your 9mm and get a .45 - evidently the Army is considering a return to the .45 for "stopping power."  They won't be reissuing 1911 - it will be  new pistol.  After reading the comments here, I wonder if GAP might not be a good option - it seems that when contracting for such a large purchase that must fit so many people, the GAP might at least be something to consider. As a side note, the article indicated that soldiers preferred a pistol with an external safety - my thought was WTF??  That sounds more like Army propaganda.

It would be too funny if the .mil adopted the .45GAP and dropped the 6.8SPC.

wganz
¶

Quoted: All of the female police officers I work with are perfectly content with their 9,40s and the few that carry 45s.

A majority then carry something smaller than .45, ask yourself why.  Then ask them if they would like to carry a .45 if it was no larger than their 9/40 framed pistol.  They are content because they have little choice, the .45 GAP gives them another choice.

I just do not see the 45 G.A.P. hanging around, or if it does it will be one of the many that are practically obsolete and only used by the "roll your own" crowd.

As long as there are people with small hands around, so shall the need for GAP type ammo be.  It's not a matter of the performance of the round, but the necessity due to the shooter's hands, unlike the other faddish calibers mentioned which were based on cartridge performance.

Remember that the .40S&W, so very popular today, is nothing more than essentially a 10mm GAP.  10mm cartridge shortened enabling it to fit in a smaller frame with added capacity.  As long as people want a .45ACP to fit in a smaller frame with added capacity, there will be a want for the .45 GAP.

People who seem to crap on the .45 GAP are the people who don't need it in the first place, and as such, I don't see why they feel the need to comment on it negatively when they have no stake in it in the first place.  People for whom the .45 GAP was made for don't seem to have a problem with it when faced with carrying a large frame pistol in the same caliber, and in fact are probably happy now that there is a cartridge that can accomodate their needs just as there are overgrips and oversized grips made for people with large hands.

For those with large hands, imagine if all hanguns had small grips and no accessories to enlarge them.  Probably would suck, eh?  You might want a larger cartridge just to increase the size of the gun so you can hold it comfortably.  Well the .45 GAP was made for the reverse situation, small handed people faced with large grips with very little available to reduce them for comfort, also preventing them from using high capacity .45ACP pistols.  Not anymore thankfully.

Since I have small hands, I guess I could adopt the same hypocritical attitude as the GAP detractors and say that there is no need for large grips or accessories to increase their size such as the Hogue slip over grips, for in my case those would be an answer for a question that was never asked.

Quoted: Quoted: GAP = GOD AWFUL PISTOL So, would you care to expound on your theory?

For me its a pain in the a**. i get some of that crap mixed in with my acp brass when i am loading and for me i just cant see the reason for it. if you cant handle a 45 dont buy one. just kidding there. i have held them and i dont see that much difference in the size but thats just me. from what i hear they are not selling well. but you cant belive any thing you hear and only have of what you see. sorry if i offended any one.

Quoted: For me its a pain in the a**. i get some of that crap mixed in with my acp brass

Personally, I don't give a crap how hard it makes for other people collecting brass, that has nothing to do with me being able to shoot .45 in a more ergonomic package.

i just cant see the reason for it

 Did you not read any of this thread or are you blind?  The reasons are painfully easy to see and have been repeated over and over, what did you not comprehend?

ETA:  Sorry, did not mean to personally attack you, but I am getting sick and tired of hearing people say this when it's made very clear in each of these GAP threads.  It's like they read the reasons why some people need the GAP but just ignore it like they never read it.

Quoted: You must check out the .45GAP it too is a higher pressure round. much more so than the .45ACP. Personaly i think its a round that will be here for a while and them gone. XD went to a GAP so they could offer a .45 with out making new frames for it. with an ACP they would have had to.

Yes, the 45GAP cartridge is a high pressure round it is comparable to the 45ACP+P round in balistics.

Quoted: Yes, the 45GAP cartridge is a high pressure round it is comparable to the 45ACP+P round in balistics.

Yes, the 45 GAP pressure standard (SAAMI Spec 23,000 psi) is equivelant to the 45 ACP +P but how can that be considerd "high pressure" when the 40 and 357 sig are up around 38-40,000 psi????

Quoted: Quoted: Yes, the 45GAP cartridge is a high pressure round it is comparable to the 45ACP+P round in balistics. Yes, the 45 GAP pressure standard (SAAMI Spec 23,000 psi) is equivelant to the 45 ACP +P but how can that be considerd "high pressure" when the 40 and 357 sig are up around 38-40,000 psi????

The volume of powder to the actual legent of case is what I would consider High pressure, I should have called it a maximum pressure case since the Gap case is smaller the an acp and is denser at the base of the round I would expect the pressure to be higher since it is designed to push up to a 230gr Bullet.

I am not an expert but when trying to compare ACP to Gap it would look like a high pressure when the ACP max pressure is 20,000psi and +p is only 21,700, the ranges for a GAP round is  16,400, to 22,500psi. in looking at +P 800psi is not very much but against standard ACP and a Range of 2,500psi is a substansial difference.

Just my thoughts.

Quoted: Quoted: For me its a pain in the a**. i get some of that crap mixed in with my acp brass Personally, I don't give a crap how hard it makes for other people collecting brass, that has nothing to do with me being able to shoot .45 in a more ergonomic package. i just cant see the reason for it  Did you not read any of this thread or are you blind?  The reasons are painfully easy to see and have been repeated over and over, what did you not comprehend? ETA:  Sorry, did not mean to personally attack you, but I am getting sick and tired of hearing people say this when it's made very clear in each of these GAP threads.  It's like they read the reasons why some people need the GAP but just ignore it like they never read it.

Looks like some one needs a nap. its just my opinion and that shared by thousands of us.

It's not your opinion that aggravated me, it's the blindness.  You said you couldn't see a reason for it when this thread is FULL of the reasons, did you not understand them?  Do you truly think your problems with picking up brass have anything to do with why people need or don't need the GAP?

These threads explain the GAP and the reasons for it, but people keep saying they don't see the reason when post after post in the thread tell them very plainly, but it like people can't understand the simple facts or ignore them.  What is not to understand?  No one said the GAP gives you better performance, no one said the GAP is for people who have large enough hands to not need it, no one should even make picking up brass a decision that influences what they are going to defend themselves with.  Sorry, but your post added almost nothing and just seemed to show you didn't bother to read the posts that told you exactly the reasons for the GAP.

It's not just you though, all the GAPs have posts like yours, they don't see the reason when they are told over, and over, and over but it seems to just go in one eye and out the other.  People keep repeating the statement "An answer to a question that wasn't asked" which is just flat out WRONG.  People did ask for it, that's why it is here.  It's pretty obvious in the threads the reasons for the GAP, and that people with small hands HAVE asked for it, yet those facts go right over peoples heads.  I do need a nap.  No threads irritate me more than blind people on the GAP thread even the M16 carrier in an AR-15 threads which set me off.

If anyone can't see the reason for the GAP, please just READ the thread, you will be told - and by the people who did in fact, ask for it.

The 45 GAP WAS designed so Gaston Glock has a cartridge with his name on it!!  Sorry but the mid sized Glock frame could have handled the ACP cartridge.  The .138" shorter Gap case could have been made up with metal mags or getting the space from the dead area in the backstrap. Or the 45ACP cartridge could have use a 200 gr bullet and got the shortness needed.  Or quite possibly the 230 gr bulet could have been set deeper in the ACP case and got the shortness needed.
 OR some width could have been cut off by makeing a 45ACP frmae to use a mag design like the GAP uses.  The Gap is not a true double stack mag but uses a staggered type set up. The G21 and G30s use a true double stack mag design.
 And just for those who would like to know the Gap full sized holds a 10 rnd mag and the G21 holds 13rnds. So it is a good step down in capicity!  And the 40 cal holds what 15?
 No the really truely sorry thing about the Gap is Glock had a chance to come out with a GREAT 45 cartridge!  But in today science Glock could only improve  the performance of a ONE HUNDRED year old cartridge by shortening the case .138"!!!  WOW!  Anyone who has reloaded a couple thou 45s could have thought that one up!!
   The biggest complaint about the 45ACP was it is a big slow bullet.  So why with todays great powders and our great knowledge isn't the Glock 45GAP one hot rod ass kicking  great pistol cartridge!!!  And remember Speer ammo company helped design this cartridge too.  So why isn't it pushing a 230gr bullet somewhere in the 1250 range with noticeable less recoil!!  
 Now that would be impressive!!  And that would have brought the 45ACP folks in the shops buying it!!
 Before you guys get too HIgh go try one of Wilsons poly double stack  1911 frame pistols,  I think Kimber makes one now too. check out the grip size on  them then explain again how we needed this new cartridge for a smaller size grip??
   Also guys the GAP pistols are as WIDE as the G21s are.  So the Gap isn't the thin CCW pistol the G36 is.   the Gap should be like carrying the G21 or G30 in width. But it will fit the bill for LEO females with small hands since they carry OWB in their duty rig.  
 And the last I heard there was just one PD that issued the Gap to it's officers, and it was a kinda small town.  Being on  the PD approved carry list is not the same thing as PD issued. And departments are not going to can their 40cal pistols just to have this new cartridge.  But many departements did dump their 9mm and bought the 40cals cause they wanted the hotter 40.  
 In the time the 45 Gap has been out the 40S&W had already been issued to a couple dozen different PDs in the same length of time when it came out..
 Over the years I think the Gap will out sell the 357 Sig.  But maybe hopefully Glock will come out with a new 45 one of these days that is the GREAT cartridge we thought they were smart enough to design!!

Quoted: The 45 GAP WAS designed so Gaston Glock has a cartridge with his name on it!!  Sorry but the mid sized Glock frame could have handled the ACP cartridge.  The .138" shorter Gap case could have been made up with metal mags or getting the space from the dead area in the backstrap. Or the 45ACP cartridge could have use a 200 gr bullet and got the shortness needed.  Or quite possibly the 230 gr bulet could have been set deeper in the ACP case and got the shortness needed OR some width could have been cut off by makeing a 45ACP frmae to use a mag design like the GAP uses.  The Gap is not a true double stack mag but uses a staggered type set up. The G21 and G30s use a true double stack mag design.  And just for those who would like to know the Gap full sized holds a 10 rnd mag and the G21 holds 13rnds. So it is a good step down in capicity!  And the 40 cal holds what 15?  No the really truely sorry thing about the Gap is Glock had a chance to come out with a GREAT 45 cartridge!  But in today science Glock could only improve  the performance of a ONE HUNDRED year old cartridge by shortening the case .138"!!!  WOW!  Anyone who has reloaded a couple thou 45s could have thought that one up!!    The biggest complaint about the 45ACP was it is a big slow bullet.  So why with todays great powders and our great knowledge isn't the Glock 45GAP one hot rod ass kicking  great pistol cartridge!!!  And remember Speer ammo company helped design this cartridge too.  So why isn't it pushing a 230gr bullet somewhere in the 1250 range with noticeable less recoil!!    Now that would be impressive!!  And that would have brought the 45ACP folks in the shops buying it!!  Before you guys get too HIgh go try one of Wilsons poly double stack  1911 frame pistols,  I think Kimber makes one now too. check out the grip size on  them then explain again how we needed this new cartridge for a smaller size grip??    Also guys the GAP pistols are as WIDE as the G21s are.  So the Gap isn't the thin CCW pistol the G36 is.   the Gap should be like carrying the G21 or G30 in width. But it will fit the bill for LEO females with small hands since they carry OWB in their duty rig.    And the last I heard there was just one PD that issued the Gap to it's officers, and it was a kinda small town.  Being on  the PD approved carry list is not the same thing as PD issued. And departments are not going to can their 40cal pistols just to have this new cartridge.  But many departements did dump their 9mm and bought the 40cals cause they wanted the hotter 40.    In the time the 45 Gap has been out the 40S&W had already been issued to a couple dozen different PDs in the same length of time when it came out..  Over the years I think the Gap will out sell the 357 Sig.  But maybe hopefully Glock will come out with a new 45 one of these days that is the GREAT cartridge we thought they were smart enough to design!!

Frankly, I don't care if Gaston's name is on it or not, it works for me, and it won't have an exposed case rim from deep bullet depth and nothing to catch on as horrible as that.  It's not done for the same reasons it wasn't done with the .40 - seating a bullet deep into the 10mm.  None of the double stack .45's, including those from Kimber or Wilson have small enough grips for me, it's not just about thickness, the entire circumference is increased.  The stepdown in capacity is not the only issue, with the GAP you can have a Glock or any other 9mm/40 frame in .45 that fits small hands.  I don't need a hotrod .45, I just want .45ACP in a smaller frame which is what the GAP is all about, not increased performance.  All of Glocks pistols could do with grip reduction (like Robar offers), even the G36 (they screwed up there big time), but since the GAP can fit in their smaller 9/40 frames (as opposed to the larger 10mm/45), I don't have a problem anymore (I can't pack the large frame, just won't fit my hand).  The GAP isn't being widely issued because it's new.  The .40's took time to catch on as well.  There are many other pistols being manufactured for this new cartridge, not just Glock, and no PD will dump their guns - they don't have the money and if they want the GAP, they will just add it to their list.  Many PD's allow a variety of calibers and models, not just one.  Why would you think they would have to get rid of guns to add a new caliber?  Even then, only a small segment  of the population needs the benefit from the Gap, not everyone wants to shoot .45, but for those that do, they now have the option.

You don't have to wait for a "new" super 45 cartridge, it's already here - the .45 Super.  The GAP was not made for increased performance, that's not what it's designed for, it's made to fit in smaller frames.  We didn't ask for a super 45, just .45ACP that fits in a smaller frame.  9mm/40 frames fit me well, and now so will staggered .45 which will have an increased capacity compared to single stack, not much, but it will be there.

The new Springfield (or is it S&W) will be manufacturing a 7/8's size 1911 in .45 GAP.  I love it, it will fit me even better and be more compact, lighter in weight, yet still have .45 ACP performance.  If the Kimbers and Wilsons (or whoever else) have a double stack grip that is relatively small, it will be even better in GAP, an even smaller grip and much more comfortable to me.  Can't wait for that either.

Quoted: The stepdown in capacity is not the only issue, with the GAP you can have a Glock or any other 9mm/40 frame in .45 that fits small hands.  I don't need a hotrod .45, I just want .45ACP in a smaller frame which is what the GAP is all about, not increased performance.

I have changed my standpoint regarding frame size and the 45 GAP. The 45 GAP frame size isn't for people with small hands as I once thought, it's for people with normal sized hands. The G21 is for people with "circus freak hands". While I think the G21 is a fine piece, even guys with big hands admit the frame is too large.

If you're a Glock lover and like the big bore cartridge, the GAP round IS the answer.

If yur compareison of the 10mm and the 40S&W were correct then the 40 would have the SAME power as the 10MM and it does not.  The 40 is a downloaded version of the 10mm and therefor only needed the short case. And the lower power of the 40S&W in the short case fited into the small frame. And the 40 has noticeable less recoil from it's lower power. This is not the case with the Gap since it's  in the 45ACP +P power range. So your arguement over this dosn't hold water.
 Funny you don't give a Crap about what others think but feel YOUR needs should be filled!  And I hate to burst your bubble but many of us DID want a hotter 45.  And many of US thought Glock had the smarts to come up with a Hot Rod 45 useing the ACP size case and fit it into the small frame.  Many of us knew Glock could make one GREAT 45!    Then the 10s of thousands of us 45ACP shooters would not be looking at a different cartridge to start fooling with just to get a some smaller grip.
 But if and when you GAP people start  shooting several thousands of rnds a year and reloading becomes cost effective for you, you will have the same problem with mixed brass. So you might not think it's so who gives a crap then.
 I am glad you finally have a 45 that you can handle, But there is a whole lot of ACP shooters out there who feel Glock could have done so much better.  So while Glock may find  some market for the Gap, it could have had one Great big market with tons of ACP shooters buying Gap pistols.
   

Quoted: If yur compareison of the 10mm and the 40S&W were correct then the 40 would have the SAME power as the 10MM and it does not.

Sorry, but I am correct when it came to the original creation of the .40S&W.  The original .40S&W was the 180gr 10mm load (FBI Lite), exactly.  It wasn't about having the same power as the 10mm, it was about using that load in a smaller frame.  The rest of the .40S&W loads came later, and they didn't want it to have the power of the 10mm as the power and recoil of the 10mm is what everyone was complaining about (not me, I find it similar to .45ACP and quite controllable).

The 40 is a downloaded version of the 10mm and therefor only needed the short case.

Again, nope.  The ORIGINAL load was not a specifically downloaded version, it was a match of the 10mm 180 subsonic load, which is still offered.  But then they thought, why have the 10mm length case when all that case space is wasted and needs a large frame.  Instead of going with lighter 10mm loads, they just made the .40S&W, and reducing the frame size needed and increasing capacity.  If you want super .40 (other than the .40 Super), then use the 10mm though you will have to sacrifice grip size and magazine capacity.

And the lower power of the 40S&W in the short case fited into the small frame. And the 40 has noticeable less recoil from it's lower power. This is not the case with the Gap since it's  in the 45ACP +P power range. So your arguement over this dosn't hold water.

The .40S&W has noticeably less recoil and power because they were not meant to match the 10mm.  It's a different cartridge.  It was not meant to follow the 10mm in power.  The .40S&W load that followed were with LOWER power and recoil and as such, did not need the 10mm length case.  It was ridiculous to keep using the 10mm case and light loads when shortening the case would allow for smaller frames and increased capacity.

Funny you don't give a Crap about what others think but feel YOUR needs should be filled!  And I hate to burst your bubble but many of us DID want a hotter 45.

I do care, it's you that doesn't.  I don't shit on large grips and frames for other people who need it, it's just not for me, I think they should be out there for those that need it.  You are crapping on the GAP because you wanted a hot rod .45, which it was never meant to be, and because it makes your personal brass collecting experience a bummer.  I guess people who shoot blazer and steel cased rounds really piss you off too.  If you shoot .45ACP, lay down a tarp, collect your brass, and no hassle.  Why should you care about how anyone's hands are filled but your own as long as you are not limiting other's choices?  I'm all for large grips for those that need it.  Just because they are not for me, you don't see me shitting on them for other people.  The GAP is giving me an option, don't shit on it just because you don't need it.

And many of US thought Glock had the smarts to come up with a Hot Rod 45 useing the ACP size case and fit it into the small frame.  Many of us knew Glock could make one GREAT 45!    Then the 10s of thousands of us 45ACP shooters would not be looking at a different cartridge to start fooling with just to get a some smaller grip.

This is your big fallacy.  Those who thought Glock had come up with a Hot Rod round missed the entire point of the GAP, no article I know of ever suggested it so I don't understand where you and "many" other people got that notion.  The rest of us understood what it was designed for, and in that regard, it's a success.  There are already hot rod .45 rounds - it's called the .45 Super, check into it.

There may not be 10's of thousands of .45 ACP shooters looking for a smaller grip, but there are thousands and this is who the GAP was created for.  If everyone were comfortable with double stack .45's, don't you think we would all be using those instead of the majority who use single stack?

Thousands more would have opted for the .45GAP were the option available, I know because there are those with small hands.  Thousands more would use staggered .45GAP if they could do so in a 9mm/40 frame, but we are still waiting for those pistols to be manufactured and the option made available.

But if and when you GAP people start  shooting several thousands of rnds a year and reloading becomes cost effective for you, you will have the same problem with mixed brass. So you might not think it's so who gives a crap then.

I don't reload, but I do collect brass, and I sort it.  What's the big deal?  There's a LOT of .40S&W brass I have to sort out from the .45 but I don't piss on the .40S&W because of it.  I don't care how much of a pain in the ass it is to sort, I would rather people have access to the .40S&W or .45 GAP if that is the cartridge they need to defend themselves or simply prefer to shoot.  To think otherwise is simple selfish.  Do you really think people choose effective calibers in preferred pistols based on having to sort brass (well, except you)?  Do you avoid shooting steel, aluminum case, and berdan priming for the same reason?

I am glad you finally have a 45 that you can handle, But there is a whole lot of ACP shooters out there who feel Glock could have done so much better.  So while Glock may find  some market for the Gap, it could have had one Great big market with tons of ACP shooters buying Gap pistols.

Again, I don't see how he could have done better.  His goal was to create a .45ACP round that would fit in a 9mm/40 frame, and he did it.  There is already the .45 Super so it's not like there wasn't any choice for a hot rod .45ACP.  The .45 Super guns also shoot .45 ACP without any changes.  I suggest you go get yourself one but you would probably piss and moan about having to sort that brass out of the .45ACP cases.

In the meantime, thanks, I am happy.  I will have the option to shoot .45ACP loads in a pistol that fits my hand.  If that means I have to sort more brass, so be it, cartrige and pistol performance are more important to the rest of us.  I'm also happy that large grips and frames are available for those with large hands, and that the .45ACP will continue to offer more propellant capacity for those that want it, even if it's going to be a hassle for me so sort the .45ACP brass out of my .45GAP.

Quoted: Quoted: If yur compareison of the 10mm and the 40S&W were correct then the 40 would have the SAME power as the 10MM and it does not. Sorry, but I am correct when it came to the original creation of the .40S&W.  The original .40S&W was the 180gr 10mm load (FBI Lite), exactly.  It wasn't about having the same power as the 10mm, it was about using that load in a smaller frame.  The rest of the .40S&W loads came later, and they didn't want it to have the power of the 10mm as the power and recoil of the 10mm is what everyone was complaining about (not me, I find it similar to .45ACP and quite controllable). The 40 is a downloaded version of the 10mm and therefor only needed the short case. Again, nope.  The ORIGINAL load was not a specifically downloaded version, it was a match of the 10mm 180 subsonic load, which is still offered.  But then they thought, why have the 10mm length case when all that case space is wasted and needs a large frame.  Instead of going with lighter 10mm loads, they just made the .40S&W, and reducing the frame size needed and increasing capacity.  If you want super .40 (other than the .40 Super), then use the 10mm though you will have to sacrifice grip size and magazine capacity. And the lower power of the 40S&W in the short case fited into the small frame. And the 40 has noticeable less recoil from it's lower power. This is not the case with the Gap since it's  in the 45ACP +P power range. So your arguement over this dosn't hold water. The .40S&W has noticeably less recoil and power because they were not meant to match the 10mm.  It's a different cartridge.  It was not meant to follow the 10mm in power.  The .40S&W load that followed were with LOWER power and recoil and as such, did not need the 10mm length case.  It was ridiculous to keep using the 10mm case and light loads when shortening the case would allow for smaller frames and increased capacity. Funny you don't give a Crap about what others think but feel YOUR needs should be filled!  And I hate to burst your bubble but many of us DID want a hotter 45. I do care, it's you that doesn't.  I don't shit on large grips and frames for other people who need it, it's just not for me, I think they should be out there for those that need it.  I also do not dump on the .45ACP because I like the GAP, the original needs to still be around as it will always have more case space just as the 10mm has over the .40S&W.  It's ALL good.  You are crapping on the GAP because you wanted a hot rod .45, which it was never meant to be, and because it makes your personal brass collecting experience a bummer.  I'm sorry for that, but not when it comes to people needing such a cartridge.  I guess people who shoot blazer and steel cased rounds really piss you off too.  If you shoot .45ACP, lay down a tarp, collect your brass, and no hassle.  Why should you care about how anyone's hands are filled but your own as long as you are not limiting other's choices?  I'm all for large grips for those that need it.  Just because they are not for me, you don't see me shitting on them for other people.  The GAP is giving me an option, don't shit on it just because you don't need it. And many of US thought Glock had the smarts to come up with a Hot Rod 45 useing the ACP size case and fit it into the small frame.  Many of us knew Glock could make one GREAT 45!    Then the 10s of thousands of us 45ACP shooters would not be looking at a different cartridge to start fooling with just to get a some smaller grip. This is your big fallacy.  Those who thought Glock had come up with a Hot Rod round missed the entire point of the GAP, no article I know of ever suggested it so I don't understand where you and "many" other people got that notion.  The rest of us understood what it was designed for, and in that regard, it's a success.  There are already hot rod .45 rounds - it's called the .45 Super, check into it. There may not be 10's of thousands of .45 ACP shooters looking for a smaller grip, but there are thousands and this is who the GAP was created for.  If everyone were comfortable with double stack .45's, don't you think we would all be using those instead of the majority who use single stack? Thousands more would have opted for the .45GAP were the option available, I know because there are those with small hands.  Thousands more would use staggered .45GAP if they could do so in a 9mm/40 frame, but we are still waiting for those pistols to be manufactured and the option made available. But if and when you GAP people start  shooting several thousands of rnds a year and reloading becomes cost effective for you, you will have the same problem with mixed brass. So you might not think it's so who gives a crap then. I don't reload, but I do collect brass, and I sort it.  What's the big deal?  There's a LOT of .40S&W brass I have to sort out from the .45 but I don't piss on the .40S&W because of it.  I don't care how much of a pain in the ass it is to sort, I would rather people have access to the .40S&W or .45 GAP if that is the cartridge they need to defend themselves or simply prefer to shoot.  To think otherwise is simple selfish.  Do you really think people choose effective calibers in preferred pistols based on having to sort brass (well, except you)?  Do you avoid shooting steel, aluminum case, and berdan priming for the same reason? I am glad you finally have a 45 that you can handle, But there is a whole lot of ACP shooters out there who feel Glock could have done so much better.  So while Glock may find  some market for the Gap, it could have had one Great big market with tons of ACP shooters buying Gap pistols. Again, I don't see how he could have done better.  His goal was to create a .45ACP round that would fit in a 9mm/40 frame, and he did it.  There is already the .45 Super so it's not like there wasn't any choice for a hot rod .45ACP.  The .45 Super guns also shoot .45 ACP without any changes.  I suggest you go get yourself one but you would probably piss and moan about having to sort that brass out of the .45ACP cases. In the meantime, thanks, I am happy.  I will have the option to shoot .45ACP loads in a pistol that fits my hand.  If that means I have to sort more brass, so be it, cartrige and pistol performance are more important to the rest of us.

An article snippet that explains the 10mm/40 relationship better than I could.

Along came a man named Martin Fackler, who was a doctor for the Army, studying the effects of wounds simultaneously and as an adjunct to the FBI's Wound Ballistics Workshop. To make a long story short, he said that a 180gr 10mm bullet at 950fps was just as effective in 10% gelatin as the Norma 170gr bullet at 1350fps. In addition, many FBI agents (who are primarily accountants, attorneys or computer people by training) were found to be having a very hard time with the recoil of the full-power round. Since the lighter round was just as effective and was easier to handle, the "FBI-Load" became the new standard of 10mm ammunition. Due to the huge market for law enforcement ammunition, most companies switched over production to the "FBI Load". In the mean time, Smith & Wesson realized there was an opportunity waiting. They realized that they could squeeze the FBI-Load's performance out of a cartridge short enough to fit in a 9mm sized firearm, rather than the 45ACP-sized pistols the 10mm required. They designed the 40 S&W in short order with the help of Winchester Ammunition, and the 10mm began to look very much like an ugly duckling again, as it had after the demise of the Bren Ten and before the Colt Delta Elite came out.

We need to start a new 10mm thread and a seperate and new 45 GAP vs 45 ACP +P / 45 Super topic.

10mm>
In the Police Academy we studied the Miami Shootout and the aftermath report from the FBI. One of the things stated was the ammunition / calibers used by law enforcement did not go through barriers and keep useable lethality.

IMO the 40 was a step backwards for convience and gelatin tests were only one part of the total equation for the 10mm. To fire through doors, glass, etc... and having enough useable force to impact the target was one of things that came out for the 10mm. Most FBI agents are accountants / college students with a badge. I totally understand why the 10mm would not make a good FBI mix where the 40 might make more sense.

45 GAP>
I do not have experience with 45 GAP. But on the surface it looks like the not to hot vs not to cold debate; but in this case it is all about gun frame size not power.

Quoted: We need to start a new 10mm thread and a seperate and new 45 GAP vs 45 ACP +P / 45 Super topic. 10mm> In the Police Academy we studied the Miami Shootout and the aftermath report from the FBI. One of the things stated was the ammunition / calibers used by law enforcement did not go through barriers and keep useable lethality. IMO the 40 was a step backwards for convience and gelatin tests were only one part of the total equation for the 10mm. To fire through doors, glass, etc... and having enough useable force to impact the target was one of things that came out for the 10mm. Most FBI agents are accountants / college students with a badge. I totally understand why the 10mm would not make a good FBI mix where the 40 might make more sense. 45 GAP> I do not have experience with 45 GAP. But on the surface it looks like the not to hot vs not to cold debate; but in this case it is all about gun frame size not power.

Holy cow!

All of this debate over such a silly little thing like this....  I have to say that I am a BIG .45ACP fan and I do have big hands.  My full size .45ACP (4506) fits my hand perfectly, but I am NOT apposed to the new .45GAP.  I was skeptical (sp?) when I first heard of the GAP but now it has been PROVEN to be ballistically comparable to the ACP so I accept it as a viable CCW solution and a solution for people with smaller hands to COMFORTABLY shoot a .45 caliber bullet.  I have to say the main thing to look for in a CCW is a weapon that you are comfortable shooting.  With comfort comes confidence, with confidence comes accuracy, and with accuracy you can be lethal with any caliber.

Oh well...just my .02

~Jason~

Quoted: I am looking for a new gun just for fun at the range.  The .45 GAP cartridge looks interesting to me and might be something fun for plinking.  Anyone here shoot the .45 GAP round yet?  If you have tell me what you thought of it.  I'm looking at getting the Springfield XD with 5" barrel.

I wouldn't consider anything bigger than a 9mm for plinking.

So i might need to have my card pulled for asking this.... but can you fire 45 GAP out of a 45ACP weapon?

Quoted: So i might need to have my card pulled for asking this.... but can you fire 45 GAP out of a 45ACP weapon?

No

Comparison of .45 ACP/Auto (left) & a .45 GAP (right):

Quoted: Quoted: So i might need to have my card pulled for asking this.... but can you fire 45 GAP out of a 45ACP weapon? No Comparison of .45 ACP/Auto (left) & a .45 GAP (right): mywebpages.comcast.net/petej/45.ammo.compare2.jpg

What about a S&W 625?