User Panel
Posted: 12/23/2012 12:19:33 AM EDT
style='font-size: 12pt;']Just received (Christmas is getting merrier!): Definitive Arms (ARFCOM Business Member) complete-build Saiga .223 with their proprietary AR mag well with LRBHO.
(Disclaimer: this thread started as my PERSONAL review of Definitive Arms conversion). (I know, my picture-taking skills sucks, but superior quality cannot be distorted and is shining through). Major upgrades will follow soon, but the CORE (PG conversion, LRBHO AR mag well adapter, barrel threading) is strong and beautifully executed. Leatherwood 1-4x CMT red dot is eagerly awaiting MI AK 30 mm scope mount's arrival. Product line site: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_531/224725_Definitive_Arms_AK_conversions__Last_Round_Bolt_Hold_Open_using_AR15_Magazines.html Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! [/span] http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/SgtRaven/AKAR-DA_5s_zpsb240bd34.jpg http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/SgtRaven/AKAR-DA_3s_zps421f7e88.jpg http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/SgtRaven/AKAR-DA_2s_zps1bfd15ce.jpg |
|
Video of LRBHO:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4xZPDj2e-w[/youtube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4xZPDj2e-w http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/SgtRaven/LRBHO-1_zpsb89b8eba.jpg?t=1356292545 |
|
looks good. bird cage looks good, magwell looks cool. original foregrip looks good. pass for this Saiga.
|
|
Any chance you could take pic a of the mag well from the top and bottom?
|
|
Quoted:
Any chance you could take pic a of the mag well from the top and bottom? I am not in technical photography (that's obvious), so here is a bottom-side reference picture. http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/SgtRaven/DSC_0349_zps3352b44c.jpg Speaking of top, let me check with Definitive Arms, since their pictures are superior to my skill-less snapping. MAC (Member here) snapped preliminary video (credits: Military Arms Channel); hope that helps: http://youtu.be/X02C1fRAPM4 |
|
I am really just looking to see how the front trunion looks, since they cut some of that out.
|
|
With added Fuglystick handguard (custom pattern) and Harris bipod.
http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/SgtRaven/DSC_0352s_zps4a6e611b.jpg |
|
Quoted:
With added Fuglystick handguard (custom pattern) and Harris bipod. http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/SgtRaven/DSC_0352s_zps4a6e611b.jpg Neat little space gun you got there. Say, the Fugly Stick handguards are news to me. I read on their website (Google is my friend afterall) that they currently only make handguards for the Saiga shotguns and that they are "working on" handguards for the rifles. Did you have to modify this handguard at all to fit your rifle? Thanks in advance. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
With added Fuglystick handguard (custom pattern) and Harris bipod. http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/SgtRaven/DSC_0352s_zps4a6e611b.jpg Neat little space gun you got there. Say, the Fugly Stick handguards are news to me. I read on their website (Google is my friend afterall) that they currently only make handguards for the Saiga shotguns and that they are "working on" handguards for the rifles. Did you have to modify this handguard at all to fit your rifle? Thanks in advance. No, it fits like a glove on .223, 5.45 and so the 7.62 Saigas. I just checked the site and it appears it's the same as it was when I've got mine. E-mail Fuglystick to [email protected] . Installation is a breeze and fit is perfect. You need to replace Saiga's HG's front cross pin and install Fuglystick's retainer plate, securing it with provided longer pin. Handguard then slides over and being inserted snugly into the receiver, securing it at the same location as Saiga OEM HG. Front of new handguard is secured to pinned retainer plate with 2 hex shoulder bolts (provided). Detailed instructions and all hardware comes with handguard. I can send you close-up pictures of handguard's bottom, if you wish. |
|
Quoted:
How does it run? Love it! Will post Range video soon; but here is LRBHO on empty mag: [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbAfJRpUoz4[/youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbAfJRpUoz4 Mag and bolt release controls placed in the most logical locations. Mag well is nicely beveled and mag swap is a breeze. The bullet guide is an eye-opener; never seen anything like that on AK, but again, this is an AR-ized AK. Best of AR functionality in AK platform. (Note to Definitive Arms and others: now design the receiver for hinged breakdown , floating hand guard and rigid integrated dust cover with flat top SIG556-style and take my money). |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
How does it run? Love it! Will post Range video soon; but here is LRBHO on empty mag: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbAfJRpUoz4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbAfJRpUoz4 Mag and bolt release controls placed in the most logical locations. Mag well is nicely beveled and mag swap is a breeze. The bullet guide is an eye-opener; never seen anything like that on AK, but again, this is an AR-ized AK. Best of AR functionality in AK platform. (Note to Definitive Arms and others: now design the receiver for hinged breakdown , floating hand guard and rigid integrated dust cover with flat top SIG556-style and take my money). 2 out of 3 of those are already being worked on. Currently on the back burner, but being worked on none the less. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
How does it run? Love it! Will post Range video soon; but here is LRBHO on empty mag: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbAfJRpUoz4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbAfJRpUoz4 Mag and bolt release controls placed in the most logical locations. Mag well is nicely beveled and mag swap is a breeze. The bullet guide is an eye-opener; never seen anything like that on AK, but again, this is an AR-ized AK. Best of AR functionality in AK platform. (Note to Definitive Arms and others: now design the receiver for hinged breakdown , floating hand guard and rigid integrated dust cover with flat top SIG556-style and take my money). 2 out of 3 of those are already being worked on. Currently on the back burner, but being worked on none the less. So TAKE MY MONEY, DANG IT!!! RSVP for S/N 001. And if not, I will register as ...Democrat. (Eh-h, NO, sorry... but RSVP'd anyway). |
|
http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/SgtRaven/DSC_0371s_zps33d68535.jpg
Still kicking strong and flawless! |
|
I totally dig it.
Have you gotten a chance to shoot it from a bench with your new optic? I'm curious as to the accuracy you can achieve with it. I was making hits on a plate at 300yds with Irons the other day though! Not bad for factory Saiga Sights. The 200 and the 100 were a breeze. So making successful hits to 300 is more then I could ask for with this rifle using open sights. |
|
Quoted:
I am on the waiting list. Hmmm... I wonder where you're at on the list. Just finished up more complete rifles, and some more orders will be shipping out this week. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I am on the waiting list. Hmmm... I wonder where you're at on the list. Just finished up more complete rifles, and some more orders will be shipping out this week. I am a patient man. You only got me on the list last week. I can wait a while for something this good. I am also going to have you guys thread my barrel as well. Probably a dumb question, but does it matter that my Saiga does not have receiver dimples? |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I am on the waiting list. Hmmm... I wonder where you're at on the list. Just finished up more complete rifles, and some more orders will be shipping out this week. I am a patient man. You only got me on the list last week. I can wait a while for something this good. I am also going to have you guys thread my barrel as well. Probably a dumb question, but does it matter that my Saiga does not have receiver dimples? Not a problem at all. In fact prototype number 1 had no dimples. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I am on the waiting list. Hmmm... I wonder where you're at on the list. Just finished up more complete rifles, and some more orders will be shipping out this week. I am a patient man. You only got me on the list last week. I can wait a while for something this good. I am also going to have you guys thread my barrel as well. Probably a dumb question, but does it matter that my Saiga does not have receiver dimples? Not a problem at all. In fact prototype number 1 had no dimples. Great Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
I just wanted to thank Definitive Arms for bringing this product to the market. There have been other attempts at doing something similer but Definitive has really put it all together to make an awesome product.
|
|
Quoted:
I just wanted to thank Definitive Arms for bringing this product to the market. There have been other attempts at doing something similer but Definitive has really put it all together to make an awesome product. Definitive Arms thanks all of you for your support of our company. Been receiving lots of Emails with people being very supportive. We're especially thankful for the patience shown by the majority of our potential customers. Lots of orders coming in, and we are trying to get rifles out the door in a timely manner. |
|
I'd love to see any groups you may have shot with it.
I'm curious as to what kind of accuracy you get utilizing your optic set up. |
|
SgtRaven
That is one very nice set-up. I put a complete rifle on waiting list today. Gotta have one after i saw yours. Looks to be excellent craftsmanship. Hope they shoot as well as they look. Chuck |
|
Quoted:
SgtRaven That is one very nice set-up. I put a complete rifle on waiting list today. Gotta have one after i saw yours. Looks to be excellent craftsmanship. Hope they shoot as well as they look. Chuck Chuck, I truly believe in infinity of American craftsmanship and innovation, as an extension of our mindset and mentality (at least, the part of society, which stands by the principles this Country was founded upon). Big words and politics aside, this is exactly the case. No offense to Izhmash: Definitive Arms is taking already good product and making it superior in design and execution. Everything here is a top notch; no excuses, no shortcuts. The thing about their approach is (and it took me a while to comprehend), that unlike many add-on customizers, they don't do just a bolt-on/spray-over quickie, but rather hand pick, disassemble, machine, reassemble and hand-fit, parkerize (melonite) and fire-testing the final product. I'm sure I'm missing something along the way, but I'm an "end user", not Machinist or Armorer. I think they do eh-h ..."not enough" marketing job about what they're really doing to their product, and what it takes to finish one and put into customer's hands. Heck, I'm more excited about my rifle now, 4 weeks after getting it, than on a first day (and my name is not Ralphie, and this is not a Red Rider, JK!). (I might as well go and work for them; sadly, I don't have any valuable skills, except pulling the trigger, he-he). I can assure you: if you get it and won't like it, you'll sell it in no time (heck, I'll help you: mark my words). There is a handful of small enterprises, which got me fired up and excited about their products; all originated from brilliant idea, followed by intense "labor of love" and superior execution (some of their products used on my rifles, including this one, which I'm taking a bit further than a stock configuration). Good luck, Keep me posted and feel free to ask any questions (taking my limited specific knowledge and skills into consideration). Happy Shooting! P.S. Raw video overview of project in works: http://youtu.be/UKvzDOQp2xM [youtube]http://youtu.be/UKvzDOQp2xM[/youtube] |
|
Hey Raven! Thanks for the write up and the explanation on your build.
First, how do you like your M.I. Mount? Also, how do you like the illuminated Hi-Lux 1-4x? How do you feel the quality is with this optic is? Tough? Is point shooting on 1x efficient? Your rifle looks great, very well thought out and put together. RM |
|
SgtRaven,
I must make a correction to one of your statements. We do not Melonite the rifles. We do a black dip etching process, followed by parkerizing. Afterword the rifles are re-heated and submerged in a oil treatment in an attempt to seal the oil in and "season" the rifle. We've done some corrosion testing, and the parts that were etched, parked, and treated far out performed parts that were just parkerized. Hope this post is informative to all. Thank you. |
|
Quoted:
Hey Raven! Thanks for the write up and the explanation on your build. First, how do you like your M.I. Mount? Also, how do you like the illuminated Hi-Lux 1-4x? How do you feel the quality is with this optic is? Tough? Is point shooting on 1x efficient? Your rifle looks great, very well thought out and put together. RM Thanks, RM! I don't have a single line answer to both questions; let me share why (all my notes are based on my own and subjective opinion). Scope mount. (+) MI mount is a superior quality product. Top notch in fit and finish. Feels very sturdy and keeps zero well. Very aggressive, pushing the limits design; perfectly centered and has lowest mounting height. (-) Bulky and thick; extrudes more than comparable Russian VOMZ and Molot. Would be on a way for LHS folder (my last MOE stock on ACE hinge would not close on it, period). Proprietary lever with micro release button is too small for quick disconnect while gloved or having wet hands. I don't dig it at all. I must been spoiled by Russian OEM style levers. When released, dove tail is opening up surprisingly "too wide" and wobbles all over when you slide it onto the rail. Once locked it sits very tight. Other thing I don't care of, is that lever is not stable in its plane when loose, i.e. it rotates slightly (CW/CCW), causing added tension when starting to close it in off-plane position. I also wish its rings were moved further forward. Overall: it's a high-tech mount, which wouldn't be my first choice, knowing then what I know now. Most likely I'll sell it and look at RS or go back to Russian "T-34 styled" VOMZ or Molot. Scope. (+) Very good glass. Very low distortion ("fish eye") on 1x. Very nice reticle and scaling. Green dot and "upside down" horseshoe helps for close range (CQB target acquisition), but (IMO) as not as clear and well defined/focused as even lower priced alternatives. Resettable turrets are a big plus (if you use this feature). Scope is built very well (although its built in ...China). Hold zero; feels very sturdy. Battery life appears to be good: I left it on NV for 2 weeks (well, I know, night vision mode draws very little current) and it's just as good, as new. Knobs and zoom action are tight and fitted well, but clicks are a little too "mushy" for my taste. I might sound like a little spoiled brat, but I can't really say I am 3x happier with this scope/mount setup, as opposed to 3x cheaper Primary Arms 1-4X red dot and VOMZ I've got on sale from PA. Since I'm not in precision mid/long range shooting (then I'd be looking at Leupolds and like in different zoom range), I might go back to the combo I've had on last project. Most likely, scope will be for sale as well. My personal opinion. Hope that helps. Happy Shooting! |
|
Quoted:
SgtRaven, I must make a correction to one of your statements. We do not Melonite the rifles. We do a black dip etching process, followed by parkerizing. Afterword the rifles are re-heated and submerged in a oil treatment in an attempt to seal the oil in and "season" the rifle. We've done some corrosion testing, and the parts that were etched, parked, and treated far out performed parts that were just parkerized. Hope this post is informative to all. Thank you. Oh Lord, I'm getting myself into more and more troubles with every post! ALL: sorry about the "Melonite" comment. Didn't I mention I have no valuable Machining or Armorer's skills? Thank you for correction! |
|
Not a problem good sir. Now you must go shoot a group and post the pictures!!! |
|
Hey Raven. Thank you for the thorough response. I agree that having a larger throw lever is better than a smaller one. I am curious about the M.I. 1913 rail instead of the 30mm ring setup. One could then put some low rings on the rail and call it good, while also retaining the ability to put non 30mm tube optics on (aimpoint etc).
I really want a 1-4x with a 1moa center, much like the hi-lux. I am surprised you feel the primary arms 1-4x is a little better (and cheaper to boot). These are things I will keep in consideration. Thanks again for your response. I think your rifle is amazing! RM Quoted:
Quoted:
Hey Raven! Thanks for the write up and the explanation on your build. First, how do you like your M.I. Mount? Also, how do you like the illuminated Hi-Lux 1-4x? How do you feel the quality is with this optic is? Tough? Is point shooting on 1x efficient? Your rifle looks great, very well thought out and put together. RM Thanks, RM! I don't have a single line answer to both questions; let me share why (all my notes are based on my own and subjective opinion). Scope mount. (+) MI mount is a superior quality product. Top notch in fit and finish. Feels very sturdy and keeps zero well. Very aggressive, pushing the limits design; perfectly centered and has lowest mounting height. (-) Bulky and thick; extrudes more than comparable Russian VOMZ and Molot. Would be on a way for LHS folder (my last MOE stock on ACE hinge would not close on it, period). Proprietary lever with micro release button is too small for quick disconnect while gloved or having wet hands. I don't dig it at all. I must been spoiled by Russian OEM style levers. When released, dove tail is opening up surprisingly "too wide" and wobbles all over when you slide it onto the rail. Once locked it sits very tight. Other thing I don't care of, is that lever is not stable in its plane when loose, i.e. it rotates slightly (CW/CCW), causing added tension when starting to close it in off-plane position. I also wish its rings were moved further forward. Overall: it's a high-tech mount, which wouldn't be my first choice, knowing then what I know now. Most likely I'll sell it and look at RS or go back to Russian "T-34 styled" VOMZ or Molot. Scope. (+) Very good glass. Very low distortion ("fish eye") on 1x. Very nice reticle and scaling. Green dot and "upside down" horseshoe helps for close range (CQB target acquisition), but (IMO) as not as clear and well defined/focused as even lower priced alternatives. Resettable turrets are a big plus (if you use this feature). Scope is built very well (although its built in ...China). Hold zero; feels very sturdy. Battery life appears to be good: I left it on NV for 2 weeks (well, I know, night vision mode draws very little current) and it's just as good, as new. Knobs and zoom action are tight and fitted well, but clicks are a little too "mushy" for my taste. I might sound like a little spoiled brat, but I can't really say I am 3x happier with this scope/mount setup, as opposed to 3x cheaper Primary Arms 1-4X red dot and VOMZ I've got on sale from PA. Since I'm not in precision mid/long range shooting (then I'd be looking at Leupolds and like in different zoom range), I might go back to the combo I've had on last project. Most likely, scope will be for sale as well. My personal opinion. Hope that helps. Happy Shooting! |
|
RE:
I am surprised you feel the primary arms 1-4x is a little better (and cheaper to boot). These are things I will keep in consideration.
I'm not saying Primary Arms' 1-4x is better, but I'm definitely not saying it's worse. It's an EXCELLENT budget alternative, which doesn't need any excuses. For my needs, PA is just right. I sure wish it had LW-style reticle and 1 Mil dot. Speaking of dot, I found PA's dot is more defined, even though it's bigger in size. My personal opinion; my specific needs, requirements and expectations. |
|
I've been immensely impressed with my Leatherwood CMR. From my FAL to my ARs, its always on, stays on, and can get me out to 800 accurately. For the $ you can't beat it IMO. Oh, and glass, extremely clear.
|
|
LRBHO in action, plus casual mag swap test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f20rk_yrBhE&feature=youtu.be [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f20rk_yrBhE&feature=youtu.be[/youtube] |
|
Nice target sir.
These rifles are proving to be far more accurate then some would claim. |
|
I find the 5.56 AKs to be noticeably more accurate than 7.62 AKs.
I shoot tighter groups with my SLR106 than my SGL21. |
|
Quoted:
Nice target sir. These rifles are proving to be far more accurate then some would claim. Now, put them into right hands and take them to Camp Perry. And speaking of accuracy of 5.56 vs 7.62x39: fully agree. 5.56' ballistics are superior to 7.62x39; however, in CQB & SHTF situations nothing clears "haram" better than "crude and rude" 7.62x39. |
|
Video v.002:
[youtube]http://youtu.be/tjL8QUAzdGU[/youtube] [youtube]http://youtu.be/tjL8QUAzdGU[/youtube] |
|
Quoted:
http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/SgtRaven/DSC_0371s_zps33d68535.jpg Still kicking strong and flawless! Awesome. i just did the same set up on my Vepr .308. I want one of those Definitive Arms builds. Will they work on the Vepr 223's too? |
|
Quoted:
Awesome. i just did the same set up on my Vepr .308. I want one of those Definitive Arms builds. Will they work on the Vepr 223's too? You need to contact them directly. I've seen positive discussions about the prospects of Vepr conversions. I understand they're swamped with .223 Saiga builds, since majority of demand is in these. Check DA's original threads (links below) and contact them directly. Nice Vepr and good looking setup! Happy Shooting! http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_531/225527_DEFINITIVE_ARMS_is_taking_Pre_Order__No_Money_Down_No_Obligation__Details_Inside_.html http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_531/224725_Definitive_Arms_AK_conversions__Last_Round_Bolt_Hold_Open_using_AR15_Magazines.html P.S. I've got scared for a moment after seeing your picture, so I ran into my "armory" to see if my scope and mount are still there P.S. More enhancements are on their way (and neither one is coming from "online pharmacy" in the form of "blue pill"). |
|
Have you seen M.A.C.'s latest video?
(Credits to Military Arms Channel): [youtube]http://youtu.be/PAjidZr5D7o[/youtube] http://youtu.be/PAjidZr5D7o |
|
Just like in Mother Russia! Siberia-tough, Babushka-friendly; takes single-digit IQ to operate. Got to love AK! |
|
Yeah, just saw the vid. Great product, good review and lots of happy customers judging by every ones comments. You guys are onto a winner. I only wish you could do the same for my .308Win Vepr! |
|
Quoted:
Yeah, just saw the vid. Great product, good review and lots of happy customers judging by every ones comments. You guys are onto a winner. I only wish you could do the same for my .308Win Vepr! Oh we can... However, as stated before, all other calibers are on hold. .223 saiga work makes up 95%+ of all our orders. We are trying to produce and move a bunch of them in increasingly larger batches. This helps us meet the most demand in the shortest amount of time. Our apologies to all of those patiently awaiting other calibers and models (VEPR, Norinco, etc) We greatly appreciate everyones patience and support. Thank you for the compliments. |
|
Definitive Arms' great-looking website is up and running!
http://www.definitivearms.com// (But check here for upcoming upgrades to my rifle in a few days). Happy Shooting! |
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.