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Posted: 3/27/2014 4:36:28 PM EDT
[#1]
People have been making 5.45 pistols for years.
I can't help but laugh that a quick google search for 5.45 pistol took me to a youtube video of a guy with a 5.45 AR pistol who was using an arm brace as a stock on his pistol. He's going to accomplish great things for all of us 
The whole thing smells like BS to me, but we shall see. |
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Posted: 3/27/2014 5:03:46 PM EDT
[#2]
Im calling BS on this one.
Another fake panic to make prices and demand rise. |
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Posted: 3/27/2014 5:08:36 PM EDT
[#3]
That ATF letter doesn't look like all the other ATF letters that have come out.
Google image search "ATF Letter" and show me a blue type letter with funky font signature... Smells like BS. |
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Posted: 3/27/2014 5:10:35 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That ATF letter doesn't look like all the other ATF letters that have come out. Google image search "ATF Letter" and show me a blue type letter with funky font signature... Smells like BS. It's supposedly a response to an email, not a formal letter from the tech branch. |
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Posted: 3/27/2014 5:17:46 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's supposedly a response to an email, not a formal letter from the tech branch. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That ATF letter doesn't look like all the other ATF letters that have come out. Google image search "ATF Letter" and show me a blue type letter with funky font signature... Smells like BS. It's supposedly a response to an email, not a formal letter from the tech branch. <snip> This is a Technical Forum, not GD. dryflash3 |
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Posted: 3/27/2014 5:33:17 PM EDT
[#6]
Well considering the ban was for .22 caliber and above, 5.45 by law doesnt qualify as Armor Piercing
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Posted: 3/27/2014 5:35:17 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well considering the ban was for .22 caliber and above, 5.45 by law doesnt qualify as Armor Piercing The ATF has never really been concerned with what the law says. But I agree, this is probably just a way for ammo sellers to boost sales. |
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Posted: 3/27/2014 5:36:07 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The ATF has never really been concerned with what the law says. But I agree, this is probably just a way for ammo sellers to boost sales. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Well considering the ban was for .22 caliber and above, 5.45 by law doesnt qualify as Armor Piercing The ATF has never really been concerned with what the law says. But I agree, this is probably just a way for ammo sellers to boost sales. The letter has already been debunked. |
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Posted: 3/27/2014 6:08:53 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The letter has already been debunked. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Well considering the ban was for .22 caliber and above, 5.45 by law doesnt qualify as Armor Piercing The ATF has never really been concerned with what the law says. But I agree, this is probably just a way for ammo sellers to boost sales. The letter has already been debunked. Figures. Thanks for letting us know. |
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Posted: 3/27/2014 6:15:39 PM EDT
[#10]
Spikes 10" and 8" uppers on a pistol lower, yea 5.45 pistols have been around for a few years.
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Posted: 3/28/2014 6:54:32 AM EDT
[#11]
I wonder what the issue is, according to the ATF it is only calibers over .22 that incure the AP ban. That is why M855 can be imported.
Here is what the Fed Regs state: Things may or may not be clearer once you read how the Federal Government defines AP ammunition in 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17). Definition (17)(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm. (B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means- (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. (C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device. AHHHH, found this also: ATF AP Classified Rounds •All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo •Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core •German made 9mm Para. with steel core •MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet •BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition •7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP •PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet (not copper) •OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core •7.62×39 ammo with steel core bullets ATF Exempted Rounds •5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with steel penetrator tip. •.30-06 M2 AP ammo |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 7:12:11 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder what the issue is, according to the ATF it is only calibers over .22 that incure the AP ban. That is why M855 can be imported. Here is what the Fed Regs state: Things may or may not be clearer once you read how the Federal Government defines AP ammunition in 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17). Definition (17)(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm. (B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means- (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. (C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device. 1. You're ignoring the word "or" at the end of subparagraph (i). The definitions are alternative. If a cartridge fits either one it's "armor piercing" under the law. 2. 7.62X39 caliber cartridges with projectiles which have steel inserts cannot be imported. The determination that those projectiles are "armor piercing "was made on the basis of subparagraph (i). 3. There is no reason why BATFE can't determine that 5.45 cartridges fit the definition of subparagraph (i) IF some manufacturer announces that it will make a 5.45 caliber pistol (which is exactly what happened with 7.62 cartridges). 4. While some have argued that the lead filler in the bullet takes it out of the definition in subparagraph (i), BATFE ignored the lead filler in 7.62 bullets - and won. 
I have no idea whether such a determination has been made, but don't fool yourself that BATFE can't do it. If a pistol chambered in 5.45 becomes available commercially, it will do so. |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 8:11:20 AM EDT
[#13]
I think we are forgetting that the the BATFE can make up any ruling they want. And I am sure they are getting some pressure from domestic ammo producers on this one.
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Posted: 3/28/2014 11:20:44 AM EDT
[#14]
I'm not sure why no one else thought to do this...
I just called the ATF import branch and spoke to an "import specialist" who confirmed that 5.45x39 steel core will no longer be approved on form 6. I asked for some kind of official documentation and she replied that it will be available on their website "soon". |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 11:25:04 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not sure why no one else thought to do this... I just called the ATF import branch and spoke to an "import specialist" who confirmed that 5.45x39 steel core will no longer be approved on form 6. I asked for some kind of official documentation and she replied that it will be available on their website "soon". Wow 
Im soooo glad i didnt get into 5.45 a few months ago when i thought about it. |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 11:34:53 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wow
Im soooo glad i didnt get into 5.45 a few months ago when i thought about it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm not sure why no one else thought to do this... I just called the ATF import branch and spoke to an "import specialist" who confirmed that 5.45x39 steel core will no longer be approved on form 6. I asked for some kind of official documentation and she replied that it will be available on their website "soon". Wow
Im soooo glad i didnt get into 5.45 a few months ago when i thought about it. Looks like i have some closet queens now |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 11:48:16 AM EDT
[#17]
I assumed new production 5.45 will still be allow?
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Posted: 3/28/2014 11:50:13 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I assumed new production 5.45 will still be allow? I'm guessing it will be like 7.62x39 where lead core is still allowed. There are plenty of foreign manufacturers making lead core 5.45x39, but the price will go up a little. |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 11:53:44 AM EDT
[#19]
I'm gonna scoop up so many cheap 5.45 rifles... ::greedily rubs hands::
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Posted: 3/28/2014 11:54:06 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not sure why no one else thought to do this... I just called the ATF import branch and spoke to an "import specialist" who confirmed that 5.45x39 steel core will no longer be approved on form 6. I asked for some kind of official documentation and she replied that it will be available on their website "soon". Either you're telling the truth and this is a very, very, very bad day, or you are lying, in which case you may deserve a ban. Either way, no good is coming from this. 
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Posted: 3/28/2014 11:55:10 AM EDT
[#21]
I guess this really going to kill the 5.45 platform in the US.
AK74 magazines is freaking expensive. Most good AK74 rifles is going $800-$1100. Without the cheap ammo I don’t really seen why anyone will buy a AK74. I will, but I’m a AK guy already. |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 11:56:01 AM EDT
[#22]
I assumed it was a AR pistol in 5.45?
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Posted: 3/28/2014 11:58:40 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Either you're telling the truth and this is a very, very, very bad day, or you are lying, in which case you may deserve a ban. Either way, no good is coming from this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm not sure why no one else thought to do this... I just called the ATF import branch and spoke to an "import specialist" who confirmed that 5.45x39 steel core will no longer be approved on form 6. I asked for some kind of official documentation and she replied that it will be available on their website "soon". Either you're telling the truth and this is a very, very, very bad day, or you are lying, in which case you may deserve a ban. Either way, no good is coming from this. I'm just relaying the conversation I had with the ATF. If you want to call them and post your results, it would help the credibility. Firearms & Explosives Imports Branch 244 Needy Road Martinsburg, West Virginia 24505 USA Voice: (304) 616-4550 |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 11:59:26 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess this really going to kill the 5.45 platform in the US. AK74 magazines is freaking expensive. Most good AK74 rifles is going $800-$1100. Without the cheap ammo I don’t really seen why anyone will buy a AK74. I will, but I’m a AK guy already. People buy stupid expensive AKs In 5.56  , this ain't gonna kill 5.45 it's just gonna make it cost about the same as steel case commercial 5.56 which is about $100 more a case. Big whoop.
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Posted: 3/28/2014 12:04:51 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
People buy stupid expensive AKs In 5.56 , this ain't gonna kill 5.45 it's just gonna make it cost about the same as steel case commercial 5.56 which is about $100 more a case. Big whoop.Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I guess this really going to kill the 5.45 platform in the US. AK74 magazines is freaking expensive. Most good AK74 rifles is going $800-$1100. Without the cheap ammo I don’t really seen why anyone will buy a AK74. I will, but I’m a AK guy already. People buy stupid expensive AKs In 5.56 , this ain't gonna kill 5.45 it's just gonna make it cost about the same as steel case commercial 5.56 which is about $100 more a case. Big whoop.Golden tiger sells by the 1000 for around 240 ish.. Shoots alot fucker cleaner than that 7N6 shit |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 12:07:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well considering the ban was for .22 caliber and above, 5.45 by law doesnt qualify as Armor Piercing |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 12:07:43 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Golden tiger sells by the 1000 for around 240 ish.. Shoots alot fucker cleaner than that 7N6 shit Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I guess this really going to kill the 5.45 platform in the US. AK74 magazines is freaking expensive. Most good AK74 rifles is going $800-$1100. Without the cheap ammo I don’t really seen why anyone will buy a AK74. I will, but I’m a AK guy already. People buy stupid expensive AKs In 5.56 , this ain't gonna kill 5.45 it's just gonna make it cost about the same as steel case commercial 5.56 which is about $100 more a case. Big whoop.Golden tiger sells by the 1000 for around 240 ish.. Shoots alot fucker cleaner than that 7N6 shit |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 12:08:48 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryGolden tiger sells by the 1000 for around 240 ish.. Shoots alot fucker cleaner than that 7N6 shit Not that hard to clean afterward |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 12:08:56 PM EDT
[#29]
Cope's Distributing just confirmed.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1607542_Yeager_posted_the_5_45_import_ban_letter_on_his_FB___.html&page=4#i46452288 Quoted:
Confirmed from the IMPORT BRANCH of the BATFE...Just got off the phone with them....Exact words No more Imports of 5.45x39 Ammo....... Don't hate me as we are OUT OF STOCK ALREADY..... Just delivering the message... |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 12:18:07 PM EDT
[#30]
SGammo has lowest price right now. Not many left. 17.8 cents per round after shipping for a whole crate...
VO |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 12:19:19 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
SGammo has lowest price right now. Not many left. 17.8 cents per round after shipping for a whole crate... VO Stock is dropping fast. USAC and AIM sold out already. AIM had 540 cases when I first checked this morning. |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 12:21:16 PM EDT
[#32]
I think SG site crashed or at least their 5.45 page lol
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Posted: 3/28/2014 12:24:03 PM EDT
[#33]
Sad day
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Posted: 3/28/2014 12:25:16 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sad day Not as sad as when Mrs. Undefined hears about how much ammo I ordered today. |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 12:30:12 PM EDT
[#35]
Glad I transitioned all AK platforms to 7.62.
My four remaining tins will forever be sealed along with the TGI. It had a good 15k run from 2008 - 2013 |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 12:35:41 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Glad I transitioned all AK platforms to 7.62. My four remaining tins will forever be sealed along with the TGI. It had a good 15k run from 2008 - 2013 militaryshooters still has a supply left.I think they are not well known enough to get hit yet. |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 12:41:33 PM EDT
[#37]
Does anyone know if this is limited to 7n6 or all 5.45 including commercial production?
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Posted: 3/28/2014 12:42:16 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does anyone know if this is limited to 7n6 or all 5.45 including commercial production? So far just 7n6 (and any other steel CORE 5.45 ammo). The commercial stuff is not steel core. |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 12:44:06 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So far just 7n6 (and any other steel CORE 5.45 ammo). The commercial stuff is not steel core. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Does anyone know if this is limited to 7n6 or all 5.45 including commercial production? So far just 7n6 (and any other steel CORE 5.45 ammo). The commercial stuff is not steel core. I get that, but you never know when dealing with stupid. |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 12:49:06 PM EDT
[#40]
Great haha. Glad I got a crate of 7n6 last week. Now I have about 3k of 5.45, that'll last me easily a couple years. Hopefully the Russia/Ukraine shitshow gets sorted out soon so the commercial ammo doesn't disappear.
And I just efiled two form 1s for some 5.45 Krinks last week lol |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 12:59:18 PM EDT
[#41]
Palmetto State still has crates and tins, just ordered some.
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Posted: 3/28/2014 1:01:14 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Palmetto State still has crates and tins, just ordered some. So does J&G and several others. |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 1:02:01 PM EDT
[#43]
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Posted: 3/28/2014 1:03:29 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryCan't listen here... can you give a cliff notes version? |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 1:07:43 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can't listen here... can you give a cliff notes version? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can't listen here... can you give a cliff notes version? Basically says fuck you, eat crow joe citizen . And we know that it does not meet the definition of armor piercing |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 1:12:17 PM EDT
[#46]
I was surprised at how matter of fact the atf agent was about it.
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Posted: 3/28/2014 1:14:25 PM EDT
[#47]
I posted this in the GD thread too. I've got a $100 donation for any legitimate company that puts out a serious legal challenge on this. I would love to see Aim, Copes, PSA, and the rest band together their resources, and level a serious lawsuit at the ATF. |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 1:33:46 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hopefully the Russia/Ukraine shitshow gets sorted out soon so the commercial ammo doesn't disappear. I read somewhere that Red Army Standard and/or Hot Shot ammunition was made in Romania. You might look to see if either brand has 5.45. |
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Posted: 3/28/2014 1:54:16 PM EDT
[#49]
Well, this sucks.
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Posted: 3/28/2014 1:58:01 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I read somewhere that Red Army Standard and/or Hot Shot ammunition was made in Romania. You might look to see if either brand has 5.45. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Hopefully the Russia/Ukraine shitshow gets sorted out soon so the commercial ammo doesn't disappear. I read somewhere that Red Army Standard and/or Hot Shot ammunition was made in Romania. You might look to see if either brand has 5.45. Red Army Standard does indeed come in 5.45. |
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