Early USAF M16 build questions

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Early USAF M16 build questions

Posted: 2/13/2006 4:00:58 PM EDT

I have a surplus slick side/slab side upper I am getting ready to build up, I just had a few questions about what parts would be appropriate for it. I see that I can get a slab side carrier from total silence in chrome or from fulton armory with a parked finish. Were the original carriers chromed? Also, should it have a modern style charging handle or one of the early delta shape ones, as sold by total silence. Also, were the duck bill FS ever standard issue, or when the M16 was adopted by the USAF, was the tapered three prong already standard.

Thanks!

Posted: 2/15/2006 3:10:11 PM EDT

[#1]

What you need to use depends a bit on what era M16 you want to dup. Certainly, the first issue used chromed, slab side carriers, but second issue pieces were parked, and once the Army went to the M16A1 all carriers, whether Air Force or Army, were the standard notched type.

Re things like charging handles and flash suppressors, I suppose the very first few AF pieces may have had the first issue pieces, but I've never seen an issue piece, or picture of one, that had them. For my own clone, I've been more than OK with the standard three prong and second issue cocking piece. I do have an original chrome bolt/carrier assy in though

To me, the most important thing in creating an early clone is the lower, and if you want an original looking "short hump/no mag release guard" lower, you're going to have to build your own out of a current piece---which is what I did

Posted: 2/15/2006 3:33:14 PM EDT

[#2]

I have been looking at the Sarco 602 kits and today was looking at my Small Arms of the World at the various old iterations. The 602 still was roll marked Colt AR15 !! It was selective fire but was not an M16 yet. The 602 had the chrome, slick sided carrier. The 602 had the later style charging handle. It did have the duckbill style of FH.

The 601 was roll marked Colt Armalite AR15. Early style CH.

Both are marked CAL.223

rj

Posted: 2/15/2006 5:25:11 PM EDT

[#3]

Thanks for the replies, still trying to decide whether to go chrome or parked on the slab side carriers. The upper looks pretty new, it has the colt proof marks. I'm assuming it was rebarreled as it is marked FNMI chrome bore. As for the lowers I'm going with RRA A2 style. I live 20 minutes from Adco, so once they come in stock I'll pick up a couple for the builds I have going on now.

My concern with going with a chrome carrier is I'd still probably have a parked bolt and carrier key, I'm afraid they'd clash :)

Anyone have any idea why lowers are out of stock at so many places nowadays? Adco has been out of stock for a few weeks, fulton armory is out... I wonder what gives. Maybe one of the manufacturing facilities closed for retooling?

Posted: 2/16/2006 6:20:33 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
I have been looking at the Sarco 602 kits and today was looking at my Small Arms of the World at the various old iterations. The 602 still was roll marked Colt AR15 !! It was selective fire but was not an M16 yet. The 602 had the chrome, slick sided carrier. The 602 had the later style charging handle. It did have the duckbill style of FH.

The 601 was roll marked Colt Armalite AR15. Early style CH.

Both are marked CAL.223

rj

Colt rolled marked thier USGI rifles COLT AR-15 as late as 1970 and serial number 4,243,XXX.

SARCO does not have any Model 02 uppers. I called and talked to Michael as soon as he had them in to help him figure out what he had (OK, to see if I could get an old upper). SARCO uppers are M16 uppers, as in Colt Model 604.

The Model 02 used both charging handles, but most have the old triangle style.

Posted: 2/16/2006 6:23:02 AM EDT

[#5]

In regards to you project; considering it is a rebuild just about any USGI bolt group would be correct. Use what ever parts you want.

Posted: 2/16/2006 6:26:54 AM EDT

[#6]

Stag was behind for a few weeks due to anodizing vat being out of service. Of course, every other manufaturer that used it was also behind. Vat is up and running now, because I got my lowers.

I went with a Fulton Armory B/BC slab side for $149.95, Link Here, about a third of the way down the page. And it is CHROMED.

Posted: 2/16/2006 6:33:09 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
[SARCO does not have any Model 02 uppers. I called and talked to Michael as soon as he had them in to help him figure out what he had (OK, to see if I could get an old upper). SARCO uppers are M16 uppers, as in Colt Model 604..

This makes more sense. The 604 uppers used to show up on Ebay all the time until they went Kali on us.

rj

Posted: 2/16/2006 8:14:19 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
In regards to you project; considering it is a rebuild just about any USGI bolt group would be correct. Use what ever parts you want.

+1 on that. I was a USAF instructor and saw just about every combination of parts you can imagine. I saw guns with 4 and 5 digit serial numbers still in service. They usually tried to change out the FH and charging handle to the later style but even as late as the early '70s you'd still run across a gun with the early parts from time to time. Chrome or park bolt, again go with whatever you have or prefer the look of--saw many of both types. The MAIN thing that distingushed a USAF rifle was no forward assist, though I saw many, many with the notched (parked) carriers.

Posted: 2/16/2006 8:33:34 AM EDT

[#9]

Here is my USAF clone:

slabside upper, serrated carrier, A2 lower (until I get the nerve to convert it!), Newer style charging handle, A2 style FH..................................

Go with what you want....the Air Force did!

Posted: 2/16/2006 8:46:07 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
In regards to you project; considering it is a rebuild just about any USGI bolt group would be correct. Use what ever parts you want.

+1 on that. I was a USAF instructor and saw just about every combination of parts you can imagine. I saw guns with 4 and 5 digit serial numbers still in service. They usually tried to change out the FH and charging handle to the later style but even as late as the early '70s you'd still run across a gun with the early parts from time to time. Chrome or park bolt, again go with whatever you have or prefer the look of--saw many of both types. The MAIN thing that distingushed a USAF rifle was no forward assist, though I saw many, many with the notched (parked) carriers.

There is even a three digit serial number Model 01 in original condition in inventory. A member here is trying to get access to it to document all the parts and markings.

Posted: 2/16/2006 10:21:37 AM EDT

[#11]

One of the uppers I sold had the cast FSB, non-chrome-early Colt-verified proof bbl but had been arsenal refinished black somewhere along the way along with an A1 FH. Didn't read the M16 FAQ until it was already gone. Not really that important to me. Those bbls are supposed to be very inaccurate. I still have one 604 upper for my 'shooter' AR.

rj

Posted: 2/16/2006 10:54:13 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
One of the uppers I sold had the cast FSB, non-chrome-early Colt-verified proof bbl but had been arsenal refinished black somewhere along the way along with an A1 FH. Didn't read the M16 FAQ until it was already gone. Not really that important to me. Those bbls are supposed to be very inaccurate. I still have one 604 upper for my 'shooter' AR.

rj

Those cast front sight bases were used all the way into 1964. My Model 02 upper has one of those FSB, the one pictured in the parts guide. It shoots just fine.

The Model 01 barrel was 1/14, and the story is if you can get 4 MOA with M193 you are doing good. Have not shot mine yet, but don't have high hopes for accuracy. Going to try and shoot it next week, but it is supposed to be cold, so will probably key hole.

Posted: 2/16/2006 11:07:37 AM EDT

[#13]

Try some 45 gr WWB.

rj

Posted: 2/16/2006 11:16:25 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Try some 45 gr WWB.

That would be just about right for a 1/14 huh?

Main thing I want to do next week is test for function with M193, and try and zero at 25M. Will end up doing some handloads for it. Was thinking of trying 53 grain HDY flat bases, and a charge of IMR4895. That should shoot well and keep the port pressure down.

Now, just got to remember not to shoot it with the heavy firing pin!

Posted: 2/16/2006 11:22:11 AM EDT

[#15]

Somewhere I have some 30 yr old Hornady 45 gr .223 dia hornet bullets. You want them ? No cannelure of course.

rj

Posted: 2/16/2006 4:54:06 PM EDT

[#16]

I ordered a parked slabside from Fulton Armory today, mostly because they have online ordering, and total silence doesn't. :)

I like the looks of the model 01 on this web site.

http://www.cybershooters.org/dgca/m16a1.htm

I think I might get the old style charging handle and duck bill suppressor. The tapered three prong on the barreled upper I have seems really cheap and flimsy compared to the one on my early A1 upper.

What is the difference between the model 604 upper I have and the earlier variations?

Posted: 2/16/2006 5:07:59 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
I see that I can get a slab side carrier from total silence in chrome or from fulton armory with a parked finish. Were the original carriers chromed?

Fulton also has a chromed slickside carrier.

Read my post about it in the troubleshooting forum, if you have any questions ask away.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=268814

Posted: 2/16/2006 5:26:02 PM EDT

[#18]

Well, I hope I have better luck with the Fulton carrier than you did. I've always had really good luck and have been really pleased with the parts and service I've received from FA.

Unfortunately, they were out of the chrome carriers when I went to place an order. I think it might be too much bling for the rifle anyway.

I'll let you know if I experience issues similar to your's.

Thanks!

Posted: 2/17/2006 12:27:44 AM EDT

[#19]

Here is mine ......!!!!
http://www.hunt101.com/img/376729.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/img/376730.JPG
I am pretty happy with that

Posted: 2/17/2006 6:09:19 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Somewhere I have some 30 yr old Hornady 45 gr .223 dia hornet bullets. You want them ? No cannelure of course.

rj

Thanks for the offer, will stick with the 53 grain HDY in that I already had load data from shooting it on reduced courses.

Posted: 2/22/2006 2:43:58 PM EDT

[#21]

I just got the slick side carrier and bolt from Fulton today. The carrier is chromed, the bolt is not. The carrier does have a D stamped on the side. Hopefully I won't run into the same issues you experienced. The machining looks a bit rough, and the firing pin is unshrouded, but we'll see how it shoots.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Early USAF M16 build questions

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