User Panel
Posted: 2/12/2006 6:15:39 PM EDT
Say I built a lightweight carbine type AR15.
Say I used a complete Bushmaster lower, including the trigger group, 6 position stock and spring, a Bushmaster 16 inch lightweight barrel cut down to 14.5 with a Vortex permently attached, a XXXXXXXX complete bolt/carrier assembly, and a Les Baer flat top upper with no forward assist. Say that the first time I took it shooting after careful assembly (including headspacing) that I had all sorts of failure to extract problems. Say I replaced the extractor spring and blue insert with a longer spring, a new blue insert and an Oly X-ring and it still had failure to extract issues. Say I replaced the Oly EX-ring with a Defender D-ring and still had failure to extract issues. Say then I replaced the XXXXXXXXXX bolt/carrier with a known good one from another AR15, this B/C being a complete Bushmaster B/C assembly. Had no issues with the Busmaster B/C. Say I then swapped out the Bushmaster B/C with a complete Olympic Arms B/C from another AR15 and it too had no issues. Say I then placed the XXXXXXXXX B/C into both AR15's for troubleshooting and had the same failure to extract issues in those AR15's. Say I then contacted the manufacturer of the B/C and told them it was not working correctly in the AR15 I built for that particular B/C, and it did not work in two other AR15's that were made using various parts. Say the manufacturer told me that my problem was not with the bolt/carrier assembly but it was with the AR15's I had built using "non-milspec" parts and refused to do anything about it until I reminded them about the customer/vendor relationship and the amount of money I had spent with XXXXXXXX in the past year. Say the manufacturer agreed to take the B/C back and did a "test" using their "mule" guns and they said it workd just fine with no problems. Say they told me to send them my "broken" AR15 so they could fix it. Say I refused to send my AR15 to them and instead asked that they send me a new B/C assembly or refund my money. Say they sent me back the same B/C with a Defender D-ring installed in it. What would you do? I have the XXXXXXXXX B/C sitting in a tray in my garage and my spare Bushmaster B/C installed in the AR15 and it works perfect. Ran over 500 rounds through it this weekend without a problem. |
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Does the B/C in question pass a short stroke test (single round in the chamber, fired, and the bolt locks back on the empty mag), yet leaves the spent case in the chamber/drops the spent case before the end of stroke?
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Make sure the gas rings are not aligned.
Make sure the EJECTOR is operating correctly. Make sure the gas key is not bent, and is properly aligned. Make sure the gas key is tight to the carrier. |
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I did all that when it messed up the first time. Still no go. |
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I am not looking for a way to troubleshoot or fix this XXXXXXXXX B/C, I believe that the manufacturer should have not given me any shit to begin with and should have sent me a brand new B/C assembly. If a Clot, Oly, Bushmaster and LMT B/C work in this rifle I expect that the XXXXXXX had damn well better work too. They are not paying me to troubleshoot why it's not working, I paid them to send me a B/C assembly that works. |
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Chances are the key may just be a tad too wide/rough in the contact area sides, and may have a slight leak between the carrier key. Pulling the Key to lap it into the carrier, then polishing the key sides should solve the problem.
But Hey, Who am I to stop you from holding your breath, jumping up and down, and then "Really Pitching a Bitch" in the trouble shooting forum? |
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Just a hunch...check the condition of the cam pin. If too worn, or even cracked, the bolt will have a tough time rotating correctly.
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So you are saying if you bought a brand new car and it had problems you would fix it yourself instead of the manufacturer / dealer? That's a lot different response than what Tweak would have given..... Had I wanted to "holding your breath, jumping up and down, and then "Really Pitching a Bitch" in the trouble shooting forum" I would have named the manufacturer of the B/C. |
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No problems with the cam pin. |
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Not trying to be a dick, but if you want us to agree that you're the victim of company XXXXXXX, why post it in the troubleshooting forum?
If you want technical advice, you're getting it. If you want customer service advice, try the feedback forum. |
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I want the troubleshooting/technical advice. |
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Parts is parts. If the manufacturer tests it and can get it to work in their rifle, it works as designed.
The fact that you can't get it to work in a rifle you built means nothing other than you need to do the troubleshooting yourself. I'm sure you'll get it working rather quickly with help of others here in this forum. If it had been a new factory-built rifle you bought that included a warranty, then you would expect and should receive immediate action by the manufacturer to fix the problem by whatever means they needed - replace it, repair it, etc. |
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KA3B,
Do you what help in resolving why the B/C will not function correctly in the rifle you built? Or, Do you want help in having the supplier swap you new B/C's until you get one that will function in the rifle you built? |
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In true ARFcom fashion, I want both. I am pretty sure that I know what the problem is, everyone's advice has been great and I have checked it out. I am waiting for the manufacturer to respond to my emails and find out how they are going to resolve the issue. Then I'll take it to the AR15 forum and, good or bad, let everyone know what's the deal and how it was taken care of. |
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Don't pussyfoot around.
Tell us who XXXXX manufacturer is. Then follow the advice here and fix it yourself. The tacked threads at the top of this forum are your friend |
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How much did the bolt carrier cost?
Buy a new one from another company, chalk it up to experience and never do business with that company again. And of course feel free to name the company and bad mouth them here. |
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I agree, bend over and take it like a man. |
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For the entire bolt/carrier assembly it was $149...... I think that the bolt carrier itself is out of spec. It "scrapes" when inserted in ANY upper (Oly, Colt, Bushmaster X2, Fulton, Les Baer, Rock River) that I own. I went further into the troubleshooting and found that the XXXXXX bolt assembly works good when installed into a Bushmaster or Oly carrier. Gas key is tight, the gas tube flare is not cracked or bent. |
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If you want to fix it yourself, find out where it is rubbing and stone the wear points till it no longer rubs. This is standard proceedure for ill fitting parts.
A magic marker works well to find interference points. A caliper and micrometer and a known good carrier helps as well. |
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Better yet tell all of us who XXXXXXXXXXX is so we dont buy parts that dont work and then catch shit for not wanting to send them our rifles. |
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Good luck with that one. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least a handful of AR parts suppliers that their cheery customer service ends at the point that they take your order/ run your credit card. From that point on, everything seem be a battle just getting the products, much less dealing with a defect or questions. But don't fret, the sun does shine on a dog’s ass every now and then, and karma does seem to go full circle. Some are forced out of business (at least have to change there name to something else), while others seem to really push the envelope of bad form and get choked out at a gun show. Bottom line is you do find that the key does need to be pulled, you want to at least try to get a new set of key screws for free. |
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All your guns shoot fine...................When I shoot them! |
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I bought a slick side from Fulton Armory, chromed. It has a "D" stamped in the side. I have not fired it yet. I hope it works. |
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"D" stamped carrier is DPMS. At least the DPMS carriers I have bought have had a "D" as well. They are the only company that comes to mind offering a slickside carrier. That's what I suspected Fulton was selling, but I kept my mouth shut just in case I was wrong. Your mentioning the "D" proves (to me at least) that my assumption was correct. |
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Having had more problems with chromed keys (them being the standard size width, then built up with plating), I have gotten to the point that when ordering a chrome plated carrier, I will order it without the key, and install a stock parkerized key instead.
Note: If you are going to order a chrome-plated unit, confirm with the supplier that the parts are produced under size, and then brought back up the standard with the chrome plating. Also, make sure that all the bearing edges are smooth as a baby’s ass, since any rough surfaces will just eat away at the softer anodized aluminum. To drive this home, the one rifle that I do have that is running a full chromed B/C (with chromed semi rough bearing edged key) has no anodizing left on either side of the upper key track. Trust me, it took a lot of CLP until the semi-rough sided key chewed the track down far enough to allow it glide freely. |
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Bingo. That's all I wanted to hear from Fulton. |
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I re-read your first post and maybe I missed it, but did you tell us if it was chrome plated? |
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Had you stated from the start that you have a DPMS chrome plated B/C, this would have never gone to two pages. About a year ago, I did a write up on correcting the DPMS chrome plated B/C's (rough plated-oversize keys), and could have just referenced the post. Just when I was starting to like you, you had to go and, “Say", poke me with a the sharp stick and open up the old wound! |
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I read a post about DPMS chrome bolt carriers many, many months ago. The BC was so tight that it would not slide in the upper. If I remember correctly, he fixed the problem with 400 or 600 aluminum oxide rubbing compound by working the carrier back and forth in the upper. I had a similar problem with a DPMS upper and BC. I was new to the AR building then, and did not know better about not buying DPMS parts. I used valve grinding compound to fit my carrier into the upper. The key kept hitting the inside of the upper where the rear sight is drilled through....and neither was chromed. This added to an already existing short-stroking problem. EVENTUALLY, I fixed both...after DPMS tried to fix it. I had other problems with that upper, but finally got all of them fixed, MYSELF, and it ran and grouped fine after that. I am saddened that DPMS had such low quality control. I told myself that after that experience, I would never buy DPMS parts again, UNLESS I knew that DPMS bought the parts from another vendor, and just slapped "DPMS" on it.
Well, my chromed slab side in is my retro Air Force M16 AR build, and is complete. Link here. Like I said, I have not fired it yet. It has no interferance issues. I just hope it works without problems. If there is a next time for a need of a slab side carrier, I'll just use a USGI M16 carrier, and have it modified to AR specs, or just use a regular AR carrier and use brushed stainless steel GunKote for visual effect. |
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First off, I didn't want to name names when I first started this post. Second, the only slickside bolt carrier that I know of that Fulton "makes" is the chromed one, that is what I was told when I ordered my first one. Had I known that they offered a parkerized one I would have bought it. YOU could have always dropped me an IM and asked who was the vendor. I would like to read your write-up on the Fulton "made" B/C, perhaps you could tac it. |
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JFYI: The first Fulton B/C assembly I bought fits perfect (just like the Bushmaster/Colt/Oly B/C's I own). It also functions perfect in my Colt SP1, Oly lightweight, Bushmaster SEBR and lightweight. I bought the second one because of how well the first one works in my other AR15's. I am still wondering if the first Fulton B/C is in spec or out of spec. |
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Anyways.....
I took my trusty Dremel tool with a stiff wire wheel on it and attacked the gas key. "Polished" the crap out of it until it slide into the receiver with no problems. Made sure there was no buffer tube/ring clearance problems. Took it out to the range and fired 300 rounds through it with no problems. I might just swap it out for a "military" gas key though. |
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The problem is not with the carrier that I did the write up on, but the oversized key (DPMS unit) due to plating, and the fact that you could use the key as a rat tail file (read blasted with very course media to remove the parkerizing, and not polished before platting).
The low down on the write up on the older plated keys was to just use a lapping plate and lap the chrome plating off and the rough contact edges down until the key would glide in the upper track of the upper. Also, it was not just the side contact edges, but also the bottom of the key that required to be lapped into the carrier as well. The wire wheel will work, but I just prefered the edges to be true with each other and the reason for using the lapping plate. Note: I do not have one of Fulton’s carriers in hand, and it may be that his QC is more stringent that his suppliers, and he may have sent less than favorable units back if they were out of spec (his own standards which the parts/keys may have been too wide/rough for the uppers (track widths) that he carries). Due to upper track variances from brand to band, the best that a supplier can do it just confirm that it is within spec, and hope that the unit/rifle you are dropping the new part is as well. Having more than a few rifles wearing Fulton items, I will say that I have yet to receive a item from him that were a reject part, but will state that all these items where NM oversized for fitting to the specific rifle. |
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Added: Glad to hear that you got the unit up and running, even though some minor assembly was required.
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It's not quite 100%, the thermelt magazines won't feed with the Fulton carrier. But hey, they work just fine with the Bushmaster unit. The Fulton goes into the "didn't work" drawer. |
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