Unusual XM177 configurations

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Unusual XM177 configurations

Posted: 3/15/2011 3:57:34 AM EDT

Hi all,

I'm curious about some of the 'field modification' configurations of the XM carbines in service in Vietnam. I've seen a few partial, grainy and unclear photographs of XM177E1s and E2s with A1 birdcages, but I've never seen a really clear example, at least for the E1. Does anyone have a pic, or has anyone assembled an E1 clone with a birdcage? I'd also like to hear about how they functioned with the moderator swapped out for the A1 flash hider.

There are also several pics in the stickied threads showing carbines with A1 stocks or complete lowers. What sort of effect did the rifle buffer have on reliability?

I did find this pic on my travels around the 'net.
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh3/Biggus_album/16024184yj6.jpg

Sorry for all the questions. I don't like requesting pictures when I have very little to contribute, but I've enjoyed reading about the carbine variants in this forum so much.

Biggus

Posted: 3/15/2011 7:03:11 AM EDT

[#1]

Posted: 3/15/2011 3:09:52 PM EDT

[#2]

Sorry, unrelated to the question but does the rifle in OP's pic have a backwards swastika scratched onto the magwell?... maybe it was in use by the vietnamese? does the swastika have some kind of significance in their culture? I can't tell, it could be a box with a cross in it, but it looks kinda like a swastika. That is one damn cool looking rifle though, with the field modified forward grip and the A1 FH on it. Looks like it also has a cut in the magazine to see round count?? the magazine is missing its floor plate though so who knows

Posted: 3/15/2011 3:18:04 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Sorry, unrelated to the question but does the rifle in OP's pic have a backwards swastika scratched onto the magwell?... maybe it was in use by the vietnamese? does the swastika have some kind of significance in their culture?

The swastika (which is a Sanskrit word) has among its origins in South Asia, among Hindus and Buddhists and some smaller religions. It is a prominent symbol for them, when oriented in this fashion or reversed (right handed). The symbol also has ancient European origins, but regardless, the Nazis and their variant (notably canted 45 degrees), are far from the first iterations of this symbol.

Posted: 3/15/2011 3:35:32 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Sorry, unrelated to the question but does the rifle in OP's pic have a backwards swastika scratched onto the magwell?... maybe it was in use by the vietnamese? does the swastika have some kind of significance in their culture? I can't tell, it could be a box with a cross in it, but it looks kinda like a swastika. That is one damn cool looking rifle though, with the field modified forward grip and the A1 FH on it. Looks like it also has a cut in the magazine to see round count?? the magazine is missing its floor plate though so who knows

The weapon belonged to a SOG Operator. The mag took a hit in an operation across the border. Chu Van

Posted: 3/15/2011 3:36:26 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Sorry, unrelated to the question but does the rifle in OP's pic have a backwards swastika scratched onto the magwell?... maybe it was in use by the vietnamese? does the swastika have some kind of significance in their culture? I can't tell, it could be a box with a cross in it, but it looks kinda like a swastika. That is one damn cool looking rifle though, with the field modified forward grip and the A1 FH on it. Looks like it also has a cut in the magazine to see round count?? the magazine is missing its floor plate though so who knows

I'm NOT seing a cut in the mag for round cout reasons,I'm seing a bullit strike on the mag and that may have blown the base off.
Echo,ya beat me by seconds

Posted: 3/15/2011 3:43:52 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Sorry, unrelated to the question but does the rifle in OP's pic have a backwards swastika scratched onto the magwell?... maybe it was in use by the vietnamese? does the swastika have some kind of significance in their culture? I can't tell, it could be a box with a cross in it, but it looks kinda like a swastika. That is one damn cool looking rifle though, with the field modified forward grip and the A1 FH on it. Looks like it also has a cut in the magazine to see round count?? the magazine is missing its floor plate though so who knows

I'm NOT seing a cut in the mag for round cout reasons,I'm seing a bullit strike on the mag and that may have blown the base off.
Echo,ya beat me by seconds

Sorry, Bro.

(Not to hijack the thread. M1 did you ever find a vintage pic of the M21 set up you were looking for? I've looked through all my books and everywhere on the net I could think of. Found a pic of a new Springfield M1A with the leather pad but no 'Nam pics.)

Posted: 3/15/2011 4:04:52 PM EDT

[#7]

uxb, that's exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.

Posted: 3/15/2011 4:17:23 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Hi all,

I'm curious about some of the 'field modification' configurations of the XM carbines in service in Vietnam. I've seen a few partial, grainy and unclear photographs of XM177E1s and E2s with A1 birdcages, but I've never seen a really clear example, at least for the E1. Does anyone have a pic, or has anyone assembled an E1 clone with a birdcage? I'd also like to hear about how they functioned with the moderator swapped out for the A1 flash hider.

There are also several pics in the stickied threads showing carbines with A1 stocks or complete lowers. What sort of effect did the rifle buffer have on reliability?

I did find this pic on my travels around the 'net.
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh3/Biggus_album/16024184yj6.jpg

Sorry for all the questions. I don't like requesting pictures when I have very little to contribute, but I've enjoyed reading about the carbine variants in this forum so much.

Biggus

I have only read books about LRRPs and Special Forces talking about the CAR 15. One I read talked specifically about taking off the moderator and using the FH. He had issues with function and switched back to the moderator. I also understand that you can open the gas port and it will function better.

UXB???? He probably knows best!

Posted: 3/15/2011 5:15:18 PM EDT

[#9]

The bird cage flash suppressor increases noise considerably, as well as flash when using XM193.

Recoil is sharper and had no issues on barrels with gas ports opened to 0.093" in diameter.

Main complaint is noise and concussion.

Posted: 3/15/2011 5:31:01 PM EDT

[#10]

There are quite a few pics out there with E1's using fixed A1 stocks. My read is, they had operating issues and the fixed stock allowed the heavier rifle buffer to be used, solving the problem, sicne it's approx. the same weight as a 9mm carbine buffer. I'm betting it was an early fix. BTW, if you haven't tried a fixed A1 stock on a carbine, you should. They are very comfy - I have one on the A2/M4 carbine I'm working on. It seems weird at first, but has become my favorite configuration.

ETA: Speaking of which, here's my favorite E1 pic (with fixed stock.

) I wish to God I knew what they were watching. I'm betting it was a Napalm dump by a fast mover...at least I like to think that.

Posted: 3/15/2011 6:17:49 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Sorry, unrelated to the question but does the rifle in OP's pic have a backwards swastika scratched onto the magwell?... maybe it was in use by the vietnamese? does the swastika have some kind of significance in their culture?

The swastika (which is a Sanskrit word) has among its origins in South Asia, among Hindus and Buddhists and some smaller religions. It is a prominent symbol for them, when oriented in this fashion or reversed (right handed). The symbol also has ancient European origins, but regardless, the Nazis and their variant (notably canted 45 degrees), are far from the first iterations of this symbol.

I am aware of this, yet I was not aware of the Vietnamese using the symbol, I thought it was limited to the hindus and bhudists (are the vietnamese bhudists???).. anyway, don't wanna take this off topic, thanks for the informative post.. carry on with OP's subject related posts lol more "custom" xm177 pics!

Posted: 3/15/2011 7:23:40 PM EDT

[#12]

Posted: 3/15/2011 8:07:00 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
I am aware of this, yet I was not aware of the Vietnamese using the symbol, I thought it was limited to the hindus and bhudists (are the vietnamese bhudists???).. anyway, don't wanna take this off topic, thanks for the informative post.. carry on with OP's subject related posts lol more "custom" xm177 pics!

The majority of the Vietnamese are Buddhists. The CIA World Factbook cites the 1999 Vietnamese Census that said 80.8% of the population were followers of no religion, but I'm going to take that with a grain of salt heh. Even so, of those who did report a religion, Buddhists were the majority.

Posted: 3/15/2011 8:10:19 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Sorry, unrelated to the question but does the rifle in OP's pic have a backwards swastika scratched onto the magwell?... maybe it was in use by the vietnamese? does the swastika have some kind of significance in their culture?

The swastika (which is a Sanskrit word) has among its origins in South Asia, among Hindus and Buddhists and some smaller religions. It is a prominent symbol for them, when oriented in this fashion or reversed (right handed). The symbol also has ancient European origins, but regardless, the Nazis and their variant (notably canted 45 degrees), are far from the first iterations of this symbol.

I am aware of this, yet I was not aware of the Vietnamese using the symbol, I thought it was limited to the hindus and bhudists (are the vietnamese bhudists???).. anyway, don't wanna take this off topic, thanks for the informative post.. carry on with OP's subject related posts lol more "custom" xm177 pics!

FWIW, Native Americans also used the symbol extensively - the Navajo wove it into rugs, most of them you see were made prior to WWII. It's too bad that the swastika will now always symbolism the Nazi party. It was not originally a symbol of evil.

The Hopi used the swastika also, and in a famous prediction of WWII carved into a rock. Some Hopi words are identical to, or mean the exact opposite of Tibetan words - it's very interesting that people in Tibet and Arizona would develop nearly identical languages and meanings, as well as similiar stories. Definitely a link there, no matter how cynical you might be. It's pretty wild if you look into traditional Hopi prophecies. Sorry if I got OT.

Posted: 3/15/2011 8:14:58 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I am aware of this, yet I was not aware of the Vietnamese using the symbol, I thought it was limited to the hindus and bhudists (are the vietnamese bhudists???).. anyway, don't wanna take this off topic, thanks for the informative post.. carry on with OP's subject related posts lol more "custom" xm177 pics!

The majority of the Vietnamese are Buddhists. The CIA World Factbook cites the 1999 Vietnamese Census that said 80.8% of the population were followers of no religion, but I'm going to take that with a grain of salt heh. Even so, of those who did report a religion, Buddhists were the majority.

If anyone is interested, the Pulitzer Prize winning 'Fire in the lake' is a fantastic book on Vietnam that reviews their Confucian - based beliefs, which coupled with animism and an inability to understand our pluralistic society, led to a lot of the problems we experienced in Vietnam. We were trying to sell them apples when what they wanted were oranges.

Posted: 3/16/2011 3:52:42 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
ETA: Speaking of which, here's my favorite E1 pic (with fixed stock.

) I wish to God I knew what they were watching. I'm betting it was a Napalm dump by a fast mover...at least I like to think that.

http://s1d6.turboimagehost.com/t/6428816_GaylerXM-1.jpg
Uploaded with TurboImageHost.com

The photo was shot by Robert Hodierne in August, 1969.

Capt. William H. Gaylor, commander of Bravo Co., 4th Battalion, 31st Infantry Regiment, Americal Division, (left)prepares to lead his men into the Hiep Duc Valley, 35 miles south of Danang. His company had already been into the valley that morning and lost one man killed (KIA) and 13 wounded (WIA). Temperatures were well over 100 degrees. On the right is radio operator Spec. 4 James Sebestyen, 22, of the Bronx, N.Y.

http://vietnamphotography.com/units.php?pageNum_Recordset1=0&totalRows_Recordset1=76&UID=146
http://www.hodierne.com/hiepduc2.htm

More on Hodierne here:

http://news.richmond.edu/features/article/as/1614/professor-gets-back-to-war-photography-roots-in-afghanistan.html
http://www.combatoutpost.blogspot.com/

Posted: 3/16/2011 3:46:25 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I am aware of this, yet I was not aware of the Vietnamese using the symbol, I thought it was limited to the hindus and bhudists (are the vietnamese bhudists???).. anyway, don't wanna take this off topic, thanks for the informative post.. carry on with OP's subject related posts lol more "custom" xm177 pics!

The majority of the Vietnamese are Buddhists. The CIA World Factbook cites the 1999 Vietnamese Census that said 80.8% of the population were followers of no religion, but I'm going to take that with a grain of salt heh. Even so, of those who did report a religion, Buddhists were the majority.

If anyone is interested, the Pulitzer Prize winning 'Fire in the lake' is a fantastic book on Vietnam that reviews their Confucian - based beliefs, which coupled with animism and an inability to understand out pluralistic society, led to a lot of the problems we experienced in Vietnam. We were trying to sell them apples when what they wanted were oranges.

Interesting piece of documentary about Vietnam and the involvement of U.S. Produced in 1971 by John Ford, but was never released to the public.

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
Part 7
Part 8

John Ford produced a pro-Vietnam [war] documentary on behalf of the US Government right before he died. The film was never released in the US, and very few people have seen it.

http://boingboing.net/2008/03/26/lost-john-ford-propa.html

Posted: 3/16/2011 6:30:16 PM EDT

[#18]

Here are a few more.

This one is from a previous post here in retroland. Notice the triggerguard taped back to the pistol grip.

Posted: 3/16/2011 6:59:05 PM EDT

[#19]

I can't imagine these soldiers shooting these short guns in combat with no supressors or hearing protection. If you ever run into any combat vet that is suffering from hearing loss please be understanding of their condition. I took my 11.5" barreled AR pistol out two days ago for the first time to see how it functioned and I learned one very important thing about AR's. All AR's that shoot 223/5.56 are loud. With a barrel shorter that 16" they are LOUD !!!! I usually shoot with muffs on but this time I forgot my muffs in my other truck so I was using foam earplugs. It was still loud with the earplugs but, I would imagine that without any kind of ear protection it could be painful.

Doc

Posted: 3/16/2011 7:24:28 PM EDT

[#20]

Can't help but wonder if this wasn't the point. Easiest way to break an ambush is if they think you're bigger than you are.

Posted: 3/16/2011 8:00:49 PM EDT

[#21]

That's been the general consensus about 'trumpet' flashhiders - aims noise away from you and magnifies it toward the enemy so it sounds like a belt-fed. Makes sense to me, but without a real world test I guess we'll never know.