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Posted: 3/1/2018 7:05:03 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I could be wrong, but I doubt the 224V pushes those weight bullets a whole lot faster than the 5.56. I believe there is only a couple grains difference in capacity. I would imagine the 22 Nosler would be a better round for pushing the light bullets faster. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I think a fast twist would be great for the heavier bullets but I personally would also like a 1/9 twist so I can shoot the 55 grain bullets as fast as possible and occasionally shoot 77 grains or so. I would of course get both .  |
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Posted: 3/1/2018 7:49:45 PM EDT
[#2]
I don't blame anyone for waiting, even though from what I'm seeing so far, performance is going to a little better velocity wise then most are expecting with the 90's regardless of barrel length someone might choose. The Sierra Matchking 90 grain might be a sweet spot for overall length versus powder charge and velocity..... The 90 grain SMK being .06 shorter on average then the Berger 90 grain VLD.
I've been holding off buying 95 grain SMK's, at least until I see somewhere that someone comes up with a magic recipe to make up for what I'm thinking will be a pretty big velocity loss compared to the 90 grain SMK. I doubt the increase in BC will make up for loss in velocity when it all balances out in the end. I found a link where a few people took measurements from the 95's, no happy medium. Measurements jump around from 1.293-1.304 inches long. That's a pretty huge increase in length compared to the 90 grain SMK at 1.165 inches long. I test loaded a batch of 90 grain Berger VLD's(1.225 average projectile length) loaded to 2.280 COAL. They felt like they were slightly compressing the powder, the 95 grain SMK's being around another .07 longer then the Bergers are going to mean something has to give. ASC mags only have another .015 or so of reliable length you can squeeze out of the COAL. I was loading with PP2000MR off of their published data, just going a little longer for both the 90 grain SMK and Berger VLD loads. A link to the thread if anyone is interested in reading it. Accurateshooter thread If Federal did their homework, and the 90 grain SMK is the best all around performer at long range currently available, there might be no great need to switch from a 1/7 as it is well into the optimal stability range. Like I said, I don't blame anyone for waiting, I enjoy screwing around and experimenting. This is far from my only AR, any rifle that gets me out shooting is a good rifle. |
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Posted: 3/2/2018 5:07:42 PM EDT
[#3]
I’m really curious to know why the calculator look good with 1:7 twist but Sierra says 1:6.5. Anyone got an explanation from Sierra?
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Posted: 3/2/2018 8:00:09 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’m really curious to know why the calculator look good with 1:7 twist but Sierra says 1:6.5. Anyone got an explanation from Sierra? |
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Posted: 3/2/2018 9:06:42 PM EDT
[#5]
I ran them 20’ above sea level and at 45 and 85 degrees.
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Posted: 3/3/2018 12:41:43 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't blame anyone for waiting, even though from what I'm seeing so far, performance is going to a little better velocity wise then most are expecting with the 90's regardless of barrel length someone might choose. The Sierra Matchking 90 grain might be a sweet spot for overall length versus powder charge and velocity..... The 90 grain SMK being .06 shorter on average then the Berger 90 grain VLD. I've been holding off buying 95 grain SMK's, at least until I see somewhere that someone comes up with a magic recipe to make up for what I'm thinking will be a pretty big velocity loss compared to the 90 grain SMK. I doubt the increase in BC will make up for loss in velocity when it all balances out in the end. I found a link where a few people took measurements from the 95's, no happy medium. Measurements jump around from 1.293-1.304 inches long. That's a pretty huge increase in length compared to the 90 grain SMK at 1.165 inches long. I test loaded a batch of 90 grain Berger VLD's(1.225 average projectile length) loaded to 2.280 COAL. They felt like they were slightly compressing the powder, the 95 grain SMK's being around another .07 longer then the Bergers are going to mean something has to give. ASC mags only have another .015 or so of reliable length you can squeeze out of the COAL. I was loading with PP2000MR off of their published data, just going a little longer for both the 90 grain SMK and Berger VLD loads. A link to the thread if anyone is interested in reading it. Accurateshooter thread If Federal did their homework, and the 90 grain SMK is the best all around performer at long range currently available, there might be no great need to switch from a 1/7 as it is well into the optimal stability range. Like I said, I don't blame anyone for waiting, I enjoy screwing around and experimenting. This is far from my only AR, any rifle that gets me out shooting is a good rifle. |
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Posted: 3/3/2018 1:09:35 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good post, thanks. |
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Posted: 3/3/2018 1:26:26 PM EDT
[#8]
Can't wait for barrels to start shipping
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Posted: 3/3/2018 8:58:13 PM EDT
[#9]
Until there is a lot more data out there on 1000y performance from many shooters across many barrel lengths/manufacturers, it's likely that the jury will remain out on optimal twist.
Unless the developers have been doing a LOT of homework on trying to introduce variation in rifling profiles and check long range stability with different lengths, a variety of pressures, and during all seasons at both low and high elevation, it's very possible that a slower twist that prints lovely groups at 200y with 90's will have an unacceptable rate of stability failure at the distances that this cartridge is being marketed for (800-1200y). Especially when many, many users will not want a 24" truck axle. Short is in, and I think the V developers turned a blind eye to that. Problem is, industry wants to provide speedy light bullet loadings too for marketing diversity, and the 6.5 twist or faster might shred a lot of varmint bullets. But why the hell shoot light bullets in the V, when .223 already has that handled? They developed a niche cartridge here, but if they don't stick with the program, the industry will have produced a lemon in the market's eyes after people have spent a couple of years fiddling with it. Things will be ripe for the 6mm replacement ;-) Classic case of marketing expectations meets reality, but that's none of my business /kermit |
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Posted: 3/3/2018 10:18:55 PM EDT
[#10]
I honestly think the 6.5 twist rate disclaimer is based on lower velocities. The calcs I ran on the ballistic calculator shows problems with lower velocities but over 2,400 FPS the 1:7 has no issues that I see. I’ll let someone with more experience confirm this.
Based on YouTube videos Guns America shot 1,000 yards then one mile with a 1:7 twist. CMMG did 1,000!yards also. Another shot 800 yards fine but there 1200 yard gong was covered in snow. |
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Posted: 3/3/2018 11:00:46 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is why you never jump in early on a new cartridge 
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Posted: 3/4/2018 6:20:54 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Dam,I just ordered up 2 larue barrels and bolts. Now you tell me this? Here I was planning on going big and converting a couple rifles. Now what will I do Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This is why you never jump in early on a new cartridge |
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Posted: 3/4/2018 8:44:00 PM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 3/4/2018 8:59:08 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you have to call Larue to order the barrel/bolt combo for the 224 V? I didn't see them on the website. I am also thinking about the Ultimate Upper in 224V if available. |
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Posted: 3/4/2018 9:37:45 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is what I want. I want to shoot a 55 grain bullet loaded at magazine length at 3500-3600 fps from a 20 inch barrel. Any ideas if this is possible with 224 V M193 +P Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What if you want to shoot light bullets smoking? I know as a kid with Lyman hammer dies, I loaded everything for speed. My 22 hornet had to flatten primers  M193 +P |
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Posted: 3/6/2018 6:06:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Interesting email quoted elsewhere from JP Enterprises talking about their first run of barrels not coming with typical accuracy guarantee when using the 90gr 224V rounds, and that they will be addressing that in next batch and giving those on preorder option to wait or take barrel from first batch.
Anyone receive this email directly? |
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Posted: 3/8/2018 9:49:14 AM EDT
[#17]
From Johnny's Reloading Bench where he's using a White Oak, 18" 1:7 with a rifle length gas system. He's discussing his reloading attempts using the Sierra 90gr SMK. It's a long video, almost an hour, but he's trying to work with the Sierras, which are listed at a 1/6.5 or faster. He starts shooting at around 41:40.
 224 Valkyrie Reloading - A rough start |
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Posted: 3/8/2018 10:03:45 AM EDT
[#18]
Have those 90 grain Sierra's been around for years?
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Posted: 3/8/2018 10:08:49 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have those 90 grain Sierra's been around for years? |
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Posted: 3/8/2018 10:12:18 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Since at least 2006. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Have those 90 grain Sierra's been around for years? |
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Posted: 3/8/2018 10:16:42 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hmmm, so they tooled up for and added a specialized bullet to their lineup that required a bastard twist their customer base likely didn't own. |
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Posted: 3/8/2018 10:19:42 AM EDT
[#22]
I have never been deep in the long range game but I am pretty sure that Sierra has been doing a 90 before 06 but am not sure since I don’t know anyone that uses them. Seems like high power and some occasional wildcat weirdos were the only people I ever saw talk about them online.
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Posted: 3/8/2018 10:27:18 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
I put my order in for a Criterion barrel a while back and had an expectation of a mid March delivery. Well I get a call yesterday saying the 1-7 RH twist won't shoot the higher grain ammo like expected. Apparently they went back to the drawing board and they are going to have to make a 1-6 or 1-6.5 twist. Has anyone else heard anything about this? |
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Posted: 3/8/2018 10:44:47 AM EDT
[#24]
The following copyrighted material is reprinted here with the permission of Sierra Bullets.
.224" Diameter 90 grain HPBT MatchKing In response to the increasing demands of Long Range shooters, Sierra is pleased to announce the introduction of the newest member of our MatchKing line; the 22 caliber 90 grain HPBT. With the recent successes of the AR-15/M16 rifles in Long Range competition, the need was felt to maximize the ballistic potential of these rifles. The new 90 grain MatchKing is the final product of a series of tests, covering both accuracy and exterior ballistics, to arrive at the best possible bullet for the Long Range competitor. Designed specifically for the .223 Remington/5.56x45mm cartridge, the new 90 MK is at equally at home in both Match and Service Rifles. Due to the inherent requirements for a bullet of this type, the 90 grain MK is intended for single loading, and is not intended to be fed from a magazine. Sierra recommends the use of a 1 x 6.5" or faster twist for optimum stability and performance. Available in the summer of 2005, these bullets will be available in boxes of 50 bullets (stock #1490) for $13.85 per box or in boxes of 500 bullets (stock #9290) for $111.80 per box. You may contact Sierra Bullets by e-mail at [email protected], call the toll free Sierra number at 800-223-8799, or visit our web page at www.sierrabullets.com!! Above 1750 fpm the BC is over .500 which makes the 223 excell as a 1000 yard caliber. |
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Posted: 3/8/2018 11:57:19 AM EDT
[#25]
And now we have a longer 95gr. from them to boot.
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Posted: 3/8/2018 12:39:32 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm over running my headlights here, but it could have been for the 22-250, some of the Ackley Improved, 22 Dasher, etc. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Hmmm, so they tooled up for and added a specialized bullet to their lineup that required a bastard twist their customer base likely didn't own. @Defender3  8 by Michael Stroup, on FlickrIt is for these guys. High power competition and service rifle competition shooting 5.56 NATO/.223 rem. I stopped before i ever got to try them. The rounds are generally single loaded. There have been several companies that have offered the 90gr smk in a loaded cartridge, some in mag length and some in non-mag length. |
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Posted: 3/8/2018 1:20:30 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@LaRue_Tactical @Defender3 https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4801/40650598222_5cc6a31e0a_z.jpg8 by Michael Stroup, on Flickr It is for these guys. High power competition and service rifle competition shooting 5.56 NATO/.223 rem. I stopped before i ever got to try them. The rounds are generally single loaded. There have been several companies that have offered the 90gr smk in a loaded cartridge, some in mag length and some in non-mag length. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Hmmm, so they tooled up for and added a specialized bullet to their lineup that required a bastard twist their customer base likely didn't own. @Defender3 https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4801/40650598222_5cc6a31e0a_z.jpg8 by Michael Stroup, on Flickr It is for these guys. High power competition and service rifle competition shooting 5.56 NATO/.223 rem. I stopped before i ever got to try them. The rounds are generally single loaded. There have been several companies that have offered the 90gr smk in a loaded cartridge, some in mag length and some in non-mag length. 
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Posted: 3/8/2018 1:21:12 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The following copyrighted material is reprinted here with the permission of Sierra Bullets. .224" Diameter 90 grain HPBT MatchKing In response to the increasing demands of Long Range shooters, Sierra is pleased to announce the introduction of the newest member of our MatchKing line; the 22 caliber 90 grain HPBT. With the recent successes of the AR-15/M16 rifles in Long Range competition, the need was felt to maximize the ballistic potential of these rifles. The new 90 grain MatchKing is the final product of a series of tests, covering both accuracy and exterior ballistics, to arrive at the best possible bullet for the Long Range competitor. Designed specifically for the .223 Remington/5.56x45mm cartridge, the new 90 MK is at equally at home in both Match and Service Rifles. Due to the inherent requirements for a bullet of this type, the 90 grain MK is intended for single loading, and is not intended to be fed from a magazine. Sierra recommends the use of a 1 x 6.5" or faster twist for optimum stability and performance. Available in the summer of 2005, these bullets will be available in boxes of 50 bullets (stock #1490) for $13.85 per box or in boxes of 500 bullets (stock #9290) for $111.80 per box. You may contact Sierra Bullets by e-mail at [email protected], call the toll free Sierra number at 800-223-8799, or visit our web page at www.sierrabullets.com!! Above 1750 fpm the BC is over .500 which makes the 223 excell as a 1000 yard caliber.
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Posted: 3/8/2018 2:02:10 PM EDT
[#29]
I certainly support any individual's pursuit of a particular weight bullet to a given platform, but I thought the big plus and benefit of the .224V was heavier bullets at high velocity. We are talking in the AR15 platform here, and getting light bullets to haul buns in a 5.56 or Wylde chamber works pretty darned well. My 20" AR barrel can push 55g'ers at 3200-3300 fps. I'm not up on all the ultimate performance of the .224V, but is it really worth the pursuit for the super light bullets? Asking, not making a claim/statement.
I understand choosing specific twists for narrow application. I have a 1:10 carbine gas 16" 300BO just to shoot 110g bullets that I load supersonic...have a 9.5" pistol gas 1:7 twist barrel for 208g home loaded subs only. I'm just curious if the .224V is worth the effort over the 5.56/Wylde for light bullets. I see little doubt when it comes to the heavy bullets. |
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Posted: 3/8/2018 3:26:22 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I certainly support any individual's pursuit of a particular weight bullet to a given platform, but I thought the big plus and benefit of the .224V was heavier bullets at high velocity. We are talking in the AR15 platform here, and getting light bullets to haul buns in a 5.56 or Wylde chamber works pretty darned well. My 20" AR barrel can push 55g'ers at 3200-3300 fps. I'm not up on all the ultimate performance of the .224V, but is it really worth the pursuit for the super light bullets? Asking, not making a claim/statement. I understand choosing specific twists for narrow application. I have a 1:10 carbine gas 16" 300BO just to shoot 110g bullets that I load supersonic...have a 9.5" pistol gas 1:7 twist barrel for 208g home loaded subs only. I'm just curious if the .224V is worth the effort over the 5.56/Wylde for light bullets. I see little doubt when it comes to the heavy bullets. Lots of people on here didn’t understand the need for 22 Nosler yet it is selling with both heavy and light bullets. Be interesting so see what happens to the Nosler as this gains popularity. |
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Posted: 3/8/2018 4:28:31 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And now we have a longer 95gr. from them to boot. It's got me thinking about a .22 Satan in a large frame, though.
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Posted: 3/8/2018 6:27:27 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's the one they brought out for the Valkyrie. It's got me thinking about a .22 Satan in a large frame, though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And now we have a longer 95gr. from them to boot. It's got me thinking about a .22 Satan in a large frame, though. 
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Posted: 3/8/2018 7:50:33 PM EDT
[#33]
A couple pictures for the conversation. This is the only group I've shot with the factory loaded Federal 90 grain SMK's at 100 yards, so take it fwiw, less then 50 rounds through a brand new barrel at the point this group was shot. IMHO it's about what you can expect out of any Federal Gold Medal load, might not be sub 1/2 moa spectacular, but it should perform in the 1 moa range across a wide selection of different brand barrels. When it doesn't, you will probably have issues finding a factory load that does. This is my Craddock Precision 20 inch barrel, Criterion blank with a 1/7 twist as I mentioned in a previous post. Temps are sub 40 degrees all weekend long. If I work up the motivation, I'll break out a Larue 1 moa challenge target and take an unofficial test to see what the 5 shot, 5 group average is for the factory Federal 90 SMK load out of this rifle.
Just a pic of how Craddock engraved the logo on the barrel, I like it... Can't say enough good things about this barrel, very impressed first time customer. 
1.166 edge to edge, .942 center to center. With warmer weather and hand loads, I believe I'm going to able to shrink that fairly well. 
A 1/8 twist 5.56 barrel can stabilize 55 grain xm193 all day long, doesn't mean you'll shoot a single sub moa group with it. |
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Posted: 3/11/2018 8:55:25 AM EDT
[#34]
Green Mountain made some .223 Wylde with 1:6 and 1:5 twist 18" stainless steel barrels. I get great results with the one in 1:14 also. Still haven't been home long enough to try those faster barrels but hopefully I'll get one of those faster twist built this year. You may want to ask them about faster twist .224 V barrels.
CD |
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Posted: 3/11/2018 9:01:33 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Green Mountain made some .223 Wylde with 1:6 and 1:5 twist 18" stainless steel barrels. I get great results with the one in 1:14 also. Still haven't been home long enough to try those faster barrels but hopefully I'll get one of those faster twist built this year. You may want to ask them about faster twist .224 V barrels. CD |
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Posted: 3/12/2018 5:03:27 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hmmm, so they tooled up for and added a specialized bullet to their lineup that required a bastard twist their customer base likely didn't own. be loaded long, beyond magazine length, for the Slow Fire Prone stage at 600 yards where you have to single-load. It never really was super popular in my experience, due to needing a fast twist barrel. Plus, it's so heavy its difficult to really drive them fast enough from a .223 Rem or 5.56x45mm NATO to beat its lighter competition. I never made the switch and was happy shooting 80 grain Bergers at 600 yards. A good point has been made in this thread regarding whether the Valkyrie can actually drive the new 95 grain MatchKing fast enough to make use of its potential. It might not be able to unless you got to a 24 inch barrel. 90 grains may be the sweet spot... |
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Posted: 3/20/2018 2:07:14 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dam,I just ordered up 2 larue barrels and bolts. Now you tell me this? Here I was planning on going big and converting a couple rifles. Now what will I do I don't have a need to shoot anything too heavy |
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Posted: 3/24/2018 9:28:59 PM EDT
[#38]
hey all, i just installed a Bison 20" SS 1/7 .224 valk in a clone build and I will be shooting the 75gr TMJ to zero and benchmark and use for brass, and then load (hoping to be exclusive to these 2) Hornady ELD 75/80gr pills for 1000 all day load. going to start with varget. these ELD have a .460-.485BC and i do t wanna push 90's. i dont push 140's in our 6.5 CM. I push 130's. i knda favor right below the big pills to make it......simpler.
i just wanted to pop in and ill have data soon. i have a caldwell chrono and the app, RCBS dies coming this next week and 100 loaded Federal TMJ arriving any day now. I also have an adjustable GB on all my AR's so i can tune em |
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Posted: 3/25/2018 9:19:14 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wanna sell one? I don't have a need to shoot anything too heavy Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Dam,I just ordered up 2 larue barrels and bolts. Now you tell me this? Here I was planning on going big and converting a couple rifles. Now what will I do I don't have a need to shoot anything too heavy |
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Posted: 3/25/2018 9:33:32 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1-in-7" is fine for heavy ... there, I said it. |
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Posted: 3/25/2018 11:15:45 AM EDT
[#41]
I would surmise 1:7 was found to be suitable for the 90gr SMK at sea level.
Whether that will hold true for the 95gr, and presumably heavier bullets that might arrive later, will remain to be seen. There's also the idea that a bullet leaving the barrel with a higher rotational speed will do better at distance. Over on Snipers Hide there are a few threads discussing this in the ELR section. If this is true, I would want a 1:6 if pushing the long/heavy bullets to their extremes. I'm still holding out for more first hand data from non-manufacturers before jumping into the 224V. |
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Posted: 3/25/2018 1:55:49 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1-in-7" is fine for heavy ... there, I said it. |
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Posted: 3/26/2018 2:15:54 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would surmise 1:7 was found to be suitable for the 90gr SMK at sea level. Whether that will hold true for the 95gr, and presumably heavier bullets that might arrive later, will remain to be seen. There's also the idea that a bullet leaving the barrel with a higher rotational speed will do better at distance. Over on Snipers Hide there are a few threads discussing this in the ELR section. If this is true, I would want a 1:6 if pushing the long/heavy bullets to their extremes. I'm still holding out for more first hand data from non-manufacturers before jumping into the 224V. |
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Posted: 3/26/2018 8:11:07 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1-in-7" is fine for heavy ... there, I said it. Niche design, will get a lot of bad rap because of incorrect implementation. |
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Posted: 3/26/2018 8:42:49 PM EDT
[#45]
Here's an interesting thread.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/223-90-grain-sierra-match-king-bullet-match-report.3892402/ |
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Posted: 3/27/2018 11:13:06 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here's an interesting thread. http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/223-90-grain-sierra-match-king-bullet-match-report.3892402/ my loaded 75tmj will be here today to start the fun |
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Posted: 3/27/2018 12:27:49 PM EDT
[#47]
Im interested in trying a 50gr Zmax outta it just to see what kinda groups/velocities I can achieve with it.
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Posted: 3/27/2018 6:05:03 PM EDT
[#48]
     80gr ELD is easily mag loaded at 2.278 for me in 6.8 ar stoner mags. this is next to a .223 hnady 75gr otm match. on a test cartridge. i also took pics of the pulled TMJ 75gr federal round and powder and the dies in case anyone needs it. ill be doing initial groups and then loading 75/80 over varget on thurs-fri |
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Posted: 3/27/2018 8:02:38 PM EDT
[#49]
I just hope this doesn't turn into promises not made like the 22 nosler debacle
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Posted: 3/27/2018 8:21:57 PM EDT
[#50]
Sierra Load data... .224 Valkyrie...
https://sierrabullets.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/224-valkyrie1.pdf |
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