tag

Great information. Thanks for taking the time to do the tests and more importantly, taking the time to share the information and pics with us.

Update 04Mar06

A few things going on...

Hopefully a computer "load model" will be up here soon, showing the upper under stress.

Feedback from industry folks has been very good... there is some thinking going on.

The next step for me is some application of these ideas at the range, as soon as I get a chance.

The fellow shooters will have puzzled looks on their faces wondering why you have weights hanging off yer rifles

Quoted: The fellow shooters will have puzzled looks on their faces wondering why you have weights hanging off yer rifles

More like "what kind of BUIS is that?"

Intersting!

but:

More Theory -- I had fully expected to see the results that I had seen up to now... I suspect that the defining moment of this problem was actually the removal of the carry handle. The time frame for the apparent increase in some of the issues attributed to the "receiver flexing" does seem to fall in line with the increase in flat top uppers being available.

The time frame of the increae of "issues" also coincides with the first time US forces have been in sustained infantry combat (GWOT) since Vietnam, and the first time that accessories have been hung off the barrel/handguard.

Quoted: ...or aboot, if that helps?

tag for later reading

good info...thanks for sharing...

actually, Lee Mosher of ISSI has been experimenting with AR's for a number of years and his upper receiver design helps in those high stress areas....

www.insightshootingsystemsinc.com/

Still ongoing as far as work/testing goes. I will be traveling again here soon, but this should be a short trip.

Results of the test have been moved... can a mod please lock the thread?

Uhh, could we get a link to the new thread please?

Quoted: Uhh, could we get a link to the new thread please?

+1

Why did it get moved? Where?

Quoted: Why did it get moved? Where?

This is no longer on ARFCOM, it was moved to a different site at the request of those interested in the furtherance of the testing and possible steps to prevent the situation.

Blah, blah, blah... Don't mind me, I don't know what I'm talking about. Forget I said anything.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why did it get moved? Where? This is no longer on ARFCOM, it was moved to a different site at the request of those interested in the furtherance of the testing and possible steps to prevent the situation. It'd be nice to have an invite to that site so I could participate Ya bastard! What website would that be? Please advise. Best regards

Is it going to 10-8 forum or is there a new forum we aren't aware of?

lord

It appears the technical forum on AR-15.com is no longer considered technical enough to be worthy of this topic. Dropping the one topic that actually had something worthwhile to read is not going to make things better, though.

Quoted: It appears the technical forum on AR-15.com is no longer considered technical enough to be worthy of this topic. Dropping the one topic that actually had something worthwhile to read is not going to make things better, though.

+1

Quoted: It appears the technical forum on AR-15.com is no longer considered technical enough to be worthy of this topic. Dropping the one topic that actually had something worthwhile to read is not going to make things better, though.

Yup.

I agree,  but it's a bummer if it's true.

Well if there is another site, please let us know where it is so we can be enlightened! I would like to know more about this topic.

Quoted: It appears the technical forum on AR-15.com is no longer considered technical enough to be worthy of this topic.

"Technical forum"?   I thought this place was just one big infomercial for Industry Partners.

Quoted: Quoted: It appears the technical forum on AR-15.com is no longer considered technical enough to be worthy of this topic. "Technical forum"?   I thought this place was just one big infomercial for Industry Partners.

You can say that again.  I can't blame them for moving this thread out of here, guess I'm just a bit disappointed with what ARF.com has become of late.

I don't mind the dealer posts. At least there is some usefull information in most of them. What I dislike is the repeated newbie posts that are asked weekly.

I guess that's what ayou get as the most popular gun site on the web.



Edit to add: Wecome to page 4 of another ARF trainwreck.

Nevermind, my bad.

I guess I didn't think about it from a competitive industry stand point. Very good points bigbore.

Gunz, I apologize for my ranting. I thought this was due to a past posting, but now it makes sense. Keep up the good work.

Quoted: Quoted: www.red-dawn.net/forums/style_emoticons/default/icon_smile_drama.gif If you don't ignore the stupidity that's dominant on the internet, you'll never be capable of using it. I don't mean it offensively and it's not directed specifically at you Gunz. I'm just sickened by some of the "professionals" that can take a hard core gun battle, but run away with their tail between their legs when a teenage troll talks shit. There are some of us here who wish to learn, and running away from a few words posted by a stranger seems a bit lame to me. It's the internet. Ignore ignorance and move on. Maybe I'm a minority in my ability to pay no attention to intentionally provoked drama. Moving this post away from public view was a necessary move.  Had he posted it on any other public forum, he would have done the same.  What 99% of the folks here dont understand, is that most folks in the manufacturing/industry are super nice, friendly folks.  There are also a few who are phucking insane loons, who its best to avoid. Had he kept posting here, eventually a maker of one of the tested products would throw a shit fit because he didnt believe his brand "x" was  tested  fairly as a competitors brand who did better.   Thats the sad truth. Gunz may offend many, and his tact is about on par with mine, but he is honestly out to impress no one, and as these tests are conducted, I'm sure if we pay attention we'll learn the results.

Excellent insight Steve. I never considered the industry reaction to such a thread either. Thanks for clearing that up. I am happy that I got to see the original post anyway.

Quoted: Quoted: www.red-dawn.net/forums/style_emoticons/default/icon_smile_drama.gif If you don't ignore the stupidity that's dominant on the internet, you'll never be capable of using it. I don't mean it offensively and it's not directed specifically at you Gunz. I'm just sickened by some of the "professionals" that can take a hard core gun battle, but run away with their tail between their legs when a teenage troll talks shit. There are some of us here who wish to learn, and running away from a few words posted by a stranger seems a bit lame to me. It's the internet. Ignore ignorance and move on. Maybe I'm a minority in my ability to pay no attention to intentionally provoked drama. Moving this post away from public view was a necessary move.  Had he posted it on any other public forum, he would have done the same.  What 99% of the folks here dont understand, is that most folks in the manufacturing/industry are super nice, friendly folks.  There are also a few who are phucking insane loons, who its best to avoid. Had he kept posting here, eventually a maker of one of the tested products would throw a shit fit because he didnt believe his brand "x" was  tested  fairly as a competitors brand who did better.   Thats the sad truth. Gunz may offend many, and his tact is about on par with mine, but he is honestly out to impress no one, and as these tests are conducted, I'm sure if we pay attention we'll learn the results.

For once we agree. Posting tech info of this caliber is bound to piss some industry folks off (again).

Quoted: Moving this post away from public view was a necessary move.  Had he posted it on any other public forum, he would have done the same.

So the topic is NOT on another "public" forum?

"Technical forum"? I thought this place was just one big infomercial for Industry Partners.

DING! We have a winner.

Zilla, can you point me the right way? Thanks!

I got an email that this thread will not die... I will try to address the questions that I can and this will be my final post.

The thread was moved at the request of some people that are interested in the testing and have sort of adopted the continuation of it, there is really only two reasons given... I will share them, even though some may not like to hear:

Someone already hit one on the head, technical information is burried by too many threads trying to sell stuff -- and the "as seen on ar15.com" tag frankly does little for credibility, so it is believed that there are better places for the testing.

The big reason, and the one that was the clencher, is that some proprietary designs are being tested to see how they reduce the flexing and still comply with the mil standards -- the people that are providing these do not want pictures and test results for them aired out in front of the whole world.

Let's see... most manufacturers have been very positive about the test results, most.

The results for the VIS where sort of posted, in that it did better than the fully supported flat top receiver; I felt it was not right to be specific as Vltor was good enough to provide a prototype for the testing and the final design would surely change -- but the readings were 0.011 handguard deflection and 0.004 chamber gauge deflection. Those numbers were given to Vltor and they have already redesigned the receiver section to make it even stiffer.

As for what handguard I used, I did test with LT and KAC RAS and there was no difference, it is about the basic design style, not who makes it... the DD picture made the thread only because I had the best images from that test (remember, I suck with a camera).

Thanks Mark L. for the offer, but I have LT handguards... in fact, that is how I found the pins -- quite the surprise to hit them when you are bifurcating one on a bandsaw I tell you!

I was asked to actually take over running another black rifle forum, but declined... I have no interest in that. The post is not on 10-8, I could not get membership there. I can not get anyone on the site that has the info now, that is above my paygrade.

Tests at higher temperatures do show an increase in flexing, range testing is still in progress. I am about to take off again and have turned most of over to a couple of other people.

peace,
Gunz
Out.

Gunz, good enough brother.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled 'buy this and pimp your rifle thread'

What it is!

Locked per authors request.