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Posted: 9/7/2004 4:34:18 PM EDT
Alright, for you vietnam era buffs out there I got a couple questions. First, the only two variants of ar's or m16's however you want to call them, I've ever seen is the regular a1, 20" barrel with the ole tapered handguards and such, and the commando (car-15) 11.5 with the 5.5 suppressor thingy, with the telescoping buttstock. Are these the only two variants that saw action in vietnam?
Secondly, I only remember seeing the (car-15), whatever the proper name is for it, with 30 round mags. I don't believe I remember seeing a regular ole a1 with a 30 round mag. I could be wrong but that's how I remember it from pictures. Isn't that kind of odd? If anyone is wondering why I'm asking is I'm just interested. I would like to someday build a collection of these era guns. Plus, I think it's a bum wrap that people on the tv and other idiots in the world think that every guy that went over to vietnam is some kind of druggy wastoid that killed babies. It pisses me off. Another reason to not like Kerry. "Oh, I'm a hero but we did terrible things there?" Well which one is it shit for brains? Well anyways, thanks to any of you who served there and anywhere else for that matter. And just know just cuz the ying yangs on tv say it was a terrible war doesn't mean the rest of us give two craps about their "opinion" of the war. Plus I know ya'll kicked some real tail over there. We may not have won politically, but that wasn't the soldiers fault. |
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You are more-or-less correct, but there are a number (tens of thousands, if you're picky) of configuration variations of those basic models.
The AR-15 was used by Advisors and by ARVN early in the war, as well as a commercial purchase by the SEALs. The AR-15 was officially adopted by the Air Force as the M16. No forward assist, and it used a screw for a pivot pin. The XM-16E1 was an M16 with a bunch of modifications requested by the Army. The notible ones being a forward assist and a reinforced lower with a mag button fence and a captive push-pin pivot pin. Also, a trap door was eventually added to the butt stock for cleaning kit storage. There were many other smaller changes, and these rifles had a mish-mash of new features as changes were made. The M16A1 was the XM-16E1 in more-or-less final form. The carbine (incorrectly called a submachine gun by the Army for political reasons) version was the XM177. The first XM177s used what looked like a shortened fixed stock (like a modern "Entry" stock) that telescoped out to normal length, and a 10.5" barrel with cut-down triangle handguards. The XM177E1 had a vinyl-covered aluminum "CAR stock", 11.5" barrel, and the first round, top & bottom handguards. The XM177E2 added a 4.5" "sound-moderating" extended flash suppressor. This brought muzzle blast volume down to around the level of the 20" M16, but also lengthened the rifle considerably (they should have transitioned to the 14.5" barrel and standard FS at that time, but...). The 30-round mags first appeared for the XM177s in the mid-60s, but the early ones had problems, partially due to the poor follower design that is STILL in wide use today. Most front-line combat vets traded their 30s to REMFs for the "uncool" 20s, because they trusted the 20s a lot more. -Troy |
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Corrections. The barrel length and designation for the original CAR15 were 10" and XM607, NOT 10.5" and XM177. Hope this info helps.
Sammy |
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Noted. I was going from memory; my copy of The Black Rifle is in storage.
-Troy |
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Good info Troy and Selfishselfless. I have a couple stupid questions tho- Who made these XM deals- Bushy, Colt or both? Also, what I'd like to find out is did they have bayo lugs and if so were they for show or did the bayo fit over the moderator and lock in?
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Colt made all the XM177s. In fact, Bushmaster didn't even make an AR15/M16 at that time. Their contract came many years later, in the 1980s. General Motors and H&R made M16A1s, during the height of the Viet Nam fracas. They were the only other suppliers, besides Colt, at that time. The XM177 series did not have a bayo lug. I suppose that, at the height of production, someone might have grabbed some M16 sight bases with a lug off the production line, and put them on a batch of XM177s, but I've never seen one so equipped. Still, with Colt, anything is possible |
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There were very few XM177E1 (Army model with 10" bbl) made and I recall under 600 XM177E2s. No telling how may commercial models Colt's made, but this was it for the official or issue"CAR-15s."
The extra 1-1/2" was so the then-XM203 grenade launcher would fit. That's an XM177E1 in the photo to the left. If you look closely you can see the proper 20 round magazine. These were issued to us with very exotic looking 30 rounders which proved unreliable. I had the follower in one hang up after part of a burst with mine and it filled the receiver with loose cartridges. Last time I ever used one of the old 30s. The REMFs loved them and they made great swapping. These were submachineguns. Said so right on the magazine well. Just as it says "Rifle" on the magazine well of the M16-series, not "Assault Rifle." Political reasons? Just calling it like it is (or was). The Army doesn't make mistakes. The sound/flash supressor was about 4" long. Trapdoor in the M16 butt is really a late or post RVN war item and appeared on the M16A1. Few M16A1s ever made it to the field, there were a couple million XM16E1s out there which were used until they were unserviceable. We replaced the chrome bolt carriers in the field and added the bird cage flash supressors in late 1968. The 14.5" bbl exists only because Abu Dhabi wanted a CAR-15 with a standard bayonet. Nothing scientific about it, simply Colt's marketing and some hacksaw engineering. -- Chuck |
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Oh, yeah, as we used to tell the reporters: "It's a terrible war. But it's the best one we've got right now!"
-- Chuck |
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Correct. Bushmaster or other NON-CONTRACTED manufacturers were unable to produce M16/AR15's until after 1977 when Stoner's patent expired. To my knowledge, all of the SMG's (per se) were manufactured by Colt, while the rifles (as previously mentioned) were manufactured by Colt, GM, and H&R.
On another note. Today (to my knowledge), the contracted M4's are being produced by FN and Bushmaster while the rifles are being produced by Colt. Hope this info helps. Sammy |
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Well that's why the M4 came about, but A1-profile 14.5" barrels had been around since the mid-70s. They were first purchased by the Air Force, and later by SpecOps as commercial purchase upgrades. Abu Dhabi asked for a carbine version of the M16A2 in the mid-80s, retaining all of the features of the rifle, including mounting the M203 and the bayonet. That became the M4. -Troy |
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Correct.
Incorrect, and kind of backwards. Colt owns the technical data package for the M4 Carbine, and has exclusive rights to produce it. During Desert Shield, Colt wasn't able to provide enough of the requested M4s, and the TDP was given to Bushmaster to help fill the order. BM supplied approx 3500 M4s in a one-time purchase. This did not please Colt, but they didn't do much about it at the time due to the war. Later, DoD tried to award the M4 contract to FN, and Colt sued and won sole-source rights to the M4 through, I believe, 2005. FN is the primary contractor for the M16 (A2, A3, and A4 varients), but Colt gets contracts for them from time to time as well. Of the commerical AR companies, only Colt and Bushmaster have ever supplied AR15-based fighting rifles to the military. Other AR companies have sold rifles commercially to the marksmanship teams, and Armalite and Knights Armament have sold .308 ARs, but that's it. -Troy |
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did any of the xm177 variants ever don a grenade launcher in vietnam?
btw, colt is sueing bm because of the m4, I believe. Says so right on their sight but I don't remember the exact words. |
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Troy, I believe the M16E1 only had the partial reciever fense that held the front push pin detent. If Im not mistaken, the full magazine fense didnt arive until the M16A1 was finalized.
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You're mixing Colt's commercial prodution 600 series shortys in with the "real" XM177 series.
I don't doubt there were 2000+ civilian Colt's 639's produced. Only about 600 of 'em were bought by the Army as XM177E2s. -- Chuck |
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did hydromatic put a picture of a transmission on theirs? ha ha h ah aha ha ha
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I got an answer to my own question about the grenade launcher. In case anyone is interested. In sof mag about 2 months ago there we're a bunch of pictures of green berets. It was promoting some book that is a pictorial of the missions from 64'-72' that some of the green beret's did into cambodia or "across the fence". Something like that. 2 of the car-15's pictured clearly had a grenade launcher on them. One was noted that it is a 40 mm like the ones currently in use. I thought it was 20mm but either I'm wrong or that was a typo.
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Great topic, some minor corrections, FWIW:
1. XM16E1 never had a trapdoor, this came with the M16A1, but not even on the early M16A1 (I think 1972). 2. The XM16E1 had the partial fence, just the upper horizontal part to allow the spring/detent. 3. The XM177E1 had a parkerized telestock, the vinyl coated one was first seen on the E2. My good friend Bill Ricca, who forgot more about this stuff than I will ever know (check out his web site), told me he once sold an original E1 telestock for $600. 4. The first 30 round mags were 1967 (this is right from THE BLACK RIFLE) 5. In THE BLACK RIFLE there is a pic of an XM177E2 with a grenade launcher. I do not know the date. 6. If you really want a challenge, tell me how the cleaning equiptment was carried for the early ones without the trapdoor (hint: there are 5 variations of cleaning rods over the history of the M16!!!) |
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The first 30rd magazines were produced in limited #'s in 1965 as part of the Colt 601/602 and CAR15 program. They were scheduled for mass production with the introduction of the XM177E2/M16A1 series in 1967, but weren't produced in quantity till 1972 because of design and production problems. They can be seen in Colt manual CAR-15 and CMG-1 SPECIFICATIONS May 1965 on pages 7, 11, and 17.
The Vinyl Acetate covered CAR stock has always been standard on the XM177 series.....if it was phosphate covered it was done by someone other than Colt..more than likely because the finish wore off and there was no replacement in stock. The Vinyl Acetate cover was a Mil Spec requirement that was part of the 1965 XM177E1 package. The XM177E1(NSN 1005-00-930-5595) was made for the military from 1965-1967. Colt produced some unit for Domestic LE and export till 1970. Only one company produced the Vinyl Acetate finish for the stock and it had to be applied and baked on at their production facility. The XM177E2 bbl was extended to provided more gas impluse over the XM177E1 series. The Collar/Washer(NSN 1005-087-9001/PART #XM7128) at the back of the moderator was designed to allow the XM148 grenade launcher to be attached to the carbine. The first XM177E2's that were shipped lacked the collar and had the non fully enclosed magazine fence of the earlier XM16E1's. Occasionally/very rarely....... H&R and GM M16A1 lowers were rebuilt into XM177E2's using kits purchased from Colt, but neither H&R or GM made any XM177E2's. |
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in 1989 my Combat Camera (USAF) unit tried to get some Gun, Submachine issued to us thru the supply system (from depot) but we kept getting the go around from supply telling us we were only authorized the Rifle, Cal. 223.
the Gun, Submachine was at that time called the GAU-5. what is that nomenclature all about? i wasnt into these enough then to be concerned with the exact NSN... i do remember getting 7 rifles in, going down to the vault in supply and function checking them with my buddy (he was the Mobility 'officer' as a TSgt and i was the Mobility 'nco' as a Sgt). he stood there enjoying the show while i played with them. He did a tour with the 173d ABN and then went in the AF and did a tour as a photographer. He said he knew id get a kick out of messing with them so he let me... a couple of those rifles were in the 5 digit serial number range (MINE. i assigned the rifles to the different mobilty billets) was 12 thousand and change. it had green furniture, 3 prong flash hider (MAYBE it was a duck billed?) and a little delta shaped charging handle handle on it. what was up with all THAT? any idea when it might have been built anyone and why wouldnt it have had the parts upgraded? it was in really really good condition... thanks david |
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According to biggerhammer.net, the Colt 649 was the model GAU5, while according to SAWLESALES, the Colt 630 was the model GAU5. The Colt 630 is listed to be the Air Force's version of the Colt XM177E2 without a forward assist, while the Colt 649 is listed to have a 14" barrel with not much more information.
Both 3-prong flash-suppressors and Colt 601 (delta shaped) charging handles are available through TS Inc. TS Inc. Hope this info helps. Sammy |
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GAU5 is strictly Air Force nomenclature. I think it is somthing like: Gun, Automatic, Unit nonexpendable, 5 (maybe model designator or somthing). I believe all Air Force firearms(even the miniguns!)use this designation system. Hey Colt-635, didn't you make some replicas of the XM177E2????? Can you post some photos?
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Very nice reproduction.
Thank you. Sammy
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What kind of lower is that? |
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Thanks for the compliments. I've always liked the classic commando style. The lower is a Group Industries stainless steel registered receiver.
Dan |
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Yep when I was in the NC Nat Guard(HHC 2-120th INF) in 89 we had a couple Hydromatic and HR M16s
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Colt 653, is that barrel 16" total?? Looks a little short to me.
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I make the kits in NFA and non NFA lengths. The moderator is removable on the NFA model. The Non NFA model's bbl measures 16.1 with the permanently attached moderator.
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What are the prices?? Also, will the buttstocks have the original buffers?? Thanks.
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Some of the H&R, GM, and early Colt M16A1 lowers have been used to build new M16a2s by the Army as well. My unit at Bragg had a bunch.
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We know; and the best part is that the takeoff A1 pieces aren't bring scrapped any more. They're being sold off in usable condition, and us early M16 nuts are using 'em to build up M16 and M16A1 clones |
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Not to beat a dead horse, but I find the vinyl coated buttstock thing interesting. I checked THE BLACK RIFLE. On page 232 caption 228 says " the early telestock was not vinyl coated". If you look closly at the photos you can see all the E2s have a shiny vinyl coated stock. Most of the E1s you can fairly easily make out that the telestocks are NOT vinyl coated, so I think early parkerized stocks did exist. How many were issued I can't say. Also, photos in "SMALL ARMS REVIEW" M16 guide tend to back this up. The weapons in both sources all look pristine and unissued, so I don't think the stocks were refinished.
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Since The Black Rifle is mentioned, I have a question concerning the contents. It's very clear that The Black Rifle considers the Model 602 to be the XM16E1 with a forward assist. However, every other reference I can find, including The Black Rifle II and Edward C. Ezell's own Small Arms of the World lists the Model 603 as the XM16E1 and M16A1 and that the Model 602 was an AR-15 without a forward assist. So is this an error in The Black Rifle?
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In 1978 I was issued an XM177E2 when I was in C 2nd Bn (Ranger) 75th Inf. It had a 10 inch barrel and the sound moderator, vinyl covered aluminium collapsable stock, no bayonet lug. Made by Hydramatic Corp.(GM)
If memory serves me (and it just might not) it was serial number 908202. Prib We the Willing, Led by the Unknowing, Do what is Necessary, For the Ungrateful. |
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No one ever responded to the cleaning kit trivia question?
Before the M16 had a buttstock trapdoor, wasn't the issue cleaning kit carried in a pouch, that clipped onto the pistol belt/Alice setup? In my 1969 M16A1 Army "comic book" manual, they refer to the "new" cleaning rod having five shaft pieces, instead of four. The overall length is the same but having it unscrew into five sections allows it to take up less space when stored in the buttstock. I love that comic book; my girlfriend thinks I'm nuts but I read it practically every day! |
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There are 5 variations of the cleaning rod. The first two were three sections with one of the sections having a knurled end (the threads were different). They were carried in a slot in the bipod case. The third version of the cleaning rod had the familiar pivot handle we see today(for use with the chamber brush) but there are still three sections and it is carried in the second version of the bipod case. The "t" shaped piece won't fit into the slot in the closed "in line" position so had to be fitted into the case in the "t" or open position. The forth and fifth versions are the rods with the short sections to fit into the buttstock the only diffrence being the direction of the hole in the "t" handle.
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I'll leave the cleaning rod trivia to the experts.
The XM177E1s we had circa 1968-69 all had 10" bbls and that nylon coated aluminum stock. The coating was starting to peel off. These were a couple of years old when we got them and we updated the internals with the phosphated bolt carrier, etc. -- Chuck |
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Hey, could you give us a price quote on those, or a link to more info? I've got a thing for the XM177 type rifles. Always thought it was a neat looking rifle. Dan0341's rifle is damned cool looking as well. |
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Did the XM177E2 use the straight "slip ring" at the rear end of the handguards, or did it use the newer "delta ring?" I, too, am accumulating parts for an XM177E2 build and want to get it right. Thanks.
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The XM177E2 used the straight slip ring. The canted delta ring didn't appear until the M16A2 came along.
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