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Posted: 4/13/2016 9:10:59 PM EDT
[#1]
I can't say it's worth it or not, but I would be happy with either.
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Posted: 4/13/2016 9:16:47 PM EDT
[#2]
I am familiar with John Holliger from white oak and I've read a lot about his work, it seems top notch, but I am not too familiar with Compass Lake or Douglas barrels for that matter. I guess it comes down to Douglas vs. Shilen and Holliger vs. Compass Lake.
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Posted: 4/14/2016 11:12:07 AM EDT
[#3]
Any opinions?
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Posted: 4/14/2016 11:16:13 AM EDT
[#4]
I have a Wilson in mine and it is capable of shooting much better than I can shoot. I am not a bad shot by any means either. Of the two you honestly will not walk away disappointed with either I would go for the cheaper of the two because both are great barrels. If you want the best of the best call up Krieger otherwise flip a coin.
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Posted: 4/14/2016 11:18:29 AM EDT
[#5]
Satern has a 20" cut rifled service barrel available right now for $380. I'd take that over most anything else.
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Posted: 4/14/2016 11:34:55 AM EDT
[#6]
I like the satern barrels but it is a little more than I would like to spend. I looked on their website and a AR-15 service match barrel costs $410, the $380 is not contoured for service rifle completions. Either way, I wanted to spend less than $350, with $359 even stretching by limits. Any ideas besides the WOA or CLE cause they look like the best option so far.
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Posted: 4/14/2016 11:54:03 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I like the satern barrels but it is a little more than I would like to spend. I looked on their website and a AR-15 service match barrel costs $410, the $380 is not contoured for service rifle completions. Either way, I wanted to spend less than $350, with $359 even stretching by limits. Any ideas besides the WOA or CLE cause they look like the best option so far. Looks contoured to me; but I hear ya about the price. What about Criterion? Fulton Armory probably has those. http://saternmachining.com/satern__cut_rifled_on_hand1 20" .223 WYLDE Preban Service Rifle Barrel- $380 for barrel only, $460 for combo SATERN® Cut Rifled Barrel HBAR .750 gas block diameter Available in 1-7, 1-8 or 1-7.7 twist Front sight cuts SS Bolt sold separately |
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Posted: 4/14/2016 12:04:14 PM EDT
[#8]
Rock River and White Oak are popular in NRA and CMP matches for a reason. I'd start there.
White Oak has some excellence barrel options for under your maximum budget. http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/home.php?cat=311 |
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Posted: 4/14/2016 12:34:45 PM EDT
[#9]
Definitely go with the cheaper barrel it will be just as accurate or more so.
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Posted: 4/14/2016 1:14:08 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am familiar with John Holliger from white oak and I've read a lot about his work, it seems top notch, but I am not too familiar with Compass Lake or Douglas barrels for that matter. I guess it comes down to Douglas vs. Shilen and Holliger vs. Compass Lake. John Holliger (White Oak Precision) and Frank White (Compass Lake Engineering) are business associates, buying a barrel from one source is basically the same as buying it from the other. Douglas barrels are button rifled and air gauged. The select the best barrels (as gauged) and separate them by consistency of interior dimensions. Their XXX barrels are their best, having .0001" or less variation in bore dimensions. I think their XX barrels are with .0003" variation. They are no better or worse than many other button rifled barrels from companies like Wilson, Criterion, Pac-Nor etc. I always promote WOA simply because you can buy a superb barrel for a low price. When ordering have them blast the barrel to a matte finish, you'll like it much more than shiny. Simply buying WOA's complete service rifle upper (the flat top version) will make you competitive at any tournament when shooting match ammo. The new NRA/CMP rules pretty much make iron sights obsolete. Traditionalist will still shoot irons at matches, but they will be seriously handicapped from this year forward. White Oak Armament sells a DMR profile barrel that will save you a lot of weight and still shoot lights out. It maintains the service rifle match diameter under the hand guards, but has a dozen or so deep flutes that cut significant weight. |
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Posted: 4/14/2016 1:51:50 PM EDT
[#11]
Supposedly the Rock River BBL is actually a Wilson. It's a fairly common build, and you can win LEG matches with a Wilson all day. Only item of note is supposedly some of the higher end BBL's will last longer, and so won't need to be replaced as often.
Personally, I'm kind of interested in a Melonite treated NM SS BBL, if such exists. I'd love to get a cost effective match BBL that I can run 5000+ rounds through. |
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Posted: 4/14/2016 2:08:57 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Supposedly the Rock River BBL is actually a Wilson. It's a fairly common build, and you can win LEG matches with a Wilson all day. Only item of note is supposedly some of the higher end BBL's will last longer, and so won't need to be replaced as often. Personally, I'm kind of interested in a Melonite treated NM SS BBL, if such exists. I'd love to get a cost effective match BBL that I can run 5000+ rounds through. Yes, I too have been told that RRA is using Wilson blanks, same as White Oak. My buddy has a RRA NM upper with 10K+ rounds that is still competitive out to 300 yards. At 600 he has noticed his groups have opened up, but it's still a shooter at 200 and 300. This guys is an exceptional shooter, High Master with NRA and Distinguished with CMP. His favorite barrels, however, are Krieger. |
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Posted: 4/14/2016 2:24:25 PM EDT
[#13]
RRA is a Wilson barrel that is who I got mine through as a complete URG.
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Posted: 4/14/2016 2:38:53 PM EDT
[#14]
I bought all my gear used from people that thought the barrels were past their prime. I legged out quickly with few Xs but lots of 10s.
Virtually any quality service rifle configured barrel can win with the right shooter. The rings are huge. |
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Posted: 4/14/2016 3:03:49 PM EDT
[#15]
Sorry, I was mistaken on the Satern barrels. It does load look contoured for $380. But based what people have been saying, I think I am going to go with the cheaper barrel seeing as how the Douglas is not much different from the Shilen. I think I might spend the extra $50 for a Shilen blank from WOA vs. a Wilson. All other brands and cost aside, what is the best barrel: Wilson, Shilen, Douglas, and Criterion. I like Satern but I would prefer a shorter waiting time. All the others I listed are in stock.
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Posted: 4/14/2016 3:08:53 PM EDT
[#16]
I don't think any of those barrels stand apart from the others statistically.
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Posted: 4/14/2016 3:50:19 PM EDT
[#17]
Another vote for RRA
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Posted: 4/14/2016 3:51:42 PM EDT
[#18]
Rock River looks good. Do you know what blanks they use? I want to build the upper so I am wondering what blanks they use for their barrels (not the ones on the assembled uppers).
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Posted: 4/14/2016 3:59:58 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Rock River looks good. Do you know what blanks they use? I want to build the upper so I am wondering what blanks they use for their barrels (not the ones on the assembled uppers). They use Wilson blanks for their service rifles. |
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Posted: 4/14/2016 4:08:42 PM EDT
[#20]
The RRA I found was $270 for a Wilson blank but for $270 I could a WOA Shilen blank. I also like the Criterion but I think I might just get the WOA. I like the Wilson blanks but from what I've read shilens are a little nicer and more on par with a Douglas. I know I asked before, but I'm still having this dilemma so I might mention it again. What would you get for a service rifle, pre ban or post ban?
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Posted: 4/14/2016 6:37:01 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I like Satern but I would prefer a shorter waiting time. All the others I listed are in stock. |
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Posted: 4/14/2016 7:35:03 PM EDT
[#22]
I've been running a CLE Douglas barrel for about 8 years, its still one of the best shooting barrels even after after the abuse I put it through. I don't necessarily think I'd say pay the extra money for a CLE, but they do very good work.
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Posted: 4/15/2016 6:59:32 AM EDT
[#23]
Apologies, I did not see that the Satern was on hand. From what I've heard, maybe the extra price isn't worth it, but the cut rifled barrels seem very nice. It's a lot more than I wanted to spend, but do you think the Satern is worth it above the Shilen or Douglas?
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Posted: 4/15/2016 8:58:58 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The RRA I found was $270 for a Wilson blank but for $270 I could a WOA Shilen blank. I also like the Criterion but I think I might just get the WOA. I like the Wilson blanks but from what I've read shilens are a little nicer and more on par with a Douglas. I know I asked before, but I'm still having this dilemma so I might mention it again. What would you get for a service rifle, pre ban or post ban? Mine always will have a flash hider. I lived through the Clinton ban, and neutered barrels will always look wrong and remind me of government meddling. Just s personal thing I guess |
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Posted: 4/15/2016 10:16:17 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Apologies, I did not see that the Satern was on hand. From what I've heard, maybe the extra price isn't worth it, but the cut rifled barrels seem very nice. It's a lot more than I wanted to spend, but do you think the Satern is worth it above the Shilen or Douglas? They supposedly last longer than button rifled; but I don't think they are going to be noticeably more accurate. I haven't shot out my satern AR10 so I cant say. I know a comparable barrel from shilen or douglas is going to probably cost you $100 more though. |
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Posted: 4/15/2016 10:22:55 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Satern has a 20" cut rifled service barrel available right now for $380. I'd take that over most anything else. Our USMC shooting team guys in Hawaii were using Saturn barrels |
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Posted: 4/15/2016 11:25:28 AM EDT
[#27]
I emailed John Holliger asking him about his opinion on the Shilen barrels or Douglas barrels and he did not really answer at all, he just said the Wilson blank is the one I want.
So I guess I'm back to square one, with Satern thrown in the mix. I'm not I want to spend an extra $100 on a barrel unless there are real benefits. The Douglas buttoned barrel is so close in price to the cut rifled satern I ruled that out. Now I'm down to the Wilson for $220, Shilen for $270, or Satern for $350. Is the Satern worth that much more in terms of accuracy and barrel life? |
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Posted: 4/15/2016 11:46:53 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I emailed John Holliger asking him about his opinion on the Shilen barrels or Douglas barrels and he did not really answer at all, he just said the Wilson blank is the one I want. So I guess I'm back to square one, with Satern thrown in the mix. I'm not I want to spend an extra $100 on a barrel unless there are real benefits. The Douglas buttoned barrel is so close in price to the cut rifled satern I ruled that out. Now I'm down to the Wilson for $220, Shilen for $270, or Satern for $350. Is the Satern worth that much more in terms of accuracy and barrel life? The real question you need to ask yourself is will YOU be able to tell the difference in terms of accuracy? Are you capable enough to see a difference with your shooting abilities. If you're a High Master or Distinguished shooter, maybe you can. If you're just starting out, I highly doubt it. Get the Wilson, and take the saved $ and get more ammo or put that towards the other long list of equipment you'll need. As for barrel life, I have a buddy with a Wilson blank RRA with north of 10K rounds that's still a competitive barrel on the short lines. If you're not shooting super pumped up loads, barrel life will surprise you. Those seeing "shot out" barrels at 4-5000K rounds are people that can notice a difference in performance at 600 yards. What they say is shot out, will likely still hold minute of ground hog for a LONG time for the average Joe shooter. Unless it's key holing...
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Posted: 4/15/2016 12:38:26 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The real question you need to ask yourself is will YOU be able to tell the difference in terms of accuracy? Are you capable enough to see a difference with your shooting abilities. If you're a High Master or Distinguished shooter, maybe you can. If you're just starting out, I highly doubt it. Get the Wilson, and take the saved $ and get more ammo or put that towards the other long list of equipment you'll need. As for barrel life, I have a buddy with a Wilson blank RRA with north of 10K rounds that's still a competitive barrel on the short lines. If you're not shooting super pumped up loads, barrel life will surprise you. Those seeing "shot out" barrels at 4-5000K rounds are people that can notice a difference in performance at 600 yards. What they say is shot out, will likely still hold minute of ground hog for a LONG time for the average Joe shooter. Unless it's key holing... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I emailed John Holliger asking him about his opinion on the Shilen barrels or Douglas barrels and he did not really answer at all, he just said the Wilson blank is the one I want. So I guess I'm back to square one, with Satern thrown in the mix. I'm not I want to spend an extra $100 on a barrel unless there are real benefits. The Douglas buttoned barrel is so close in price to the cut rifled satern I ruled that out. Now I'm down to the Wilson for $220, Shilen for $270, or Satern for $350. Is the Satern worth that much more in terms of accuracy and barrel life? The real question you need to ask yourself is will YOU be able to tell the difference in terms of accuracy? Are you capable enough to see a difference with your shooting abilities. If you're a High Master or Distinguished shooter, maybe you can. If you're just starting out, I highly doubt it. Get the Wilson, and take the saved $ and get more ammo or put that towards the other long list of equipment you'll need. As for barrel life, I have a buddy with a Wilson blank RRA with north of 10K rounds that's still a competitive barrel on the short lines. If you're not shooting super pumped up loads, barrel life will surprise you. Those seeing "shot out" barrels at 4-5000K rounds are people that can notice a difference in performance at 600 yards. What they say is shot out, will likely still hold minute of ground hog for a LONG time for the average Joe shooter. Unless it's key holing... Much truth. If you are new - get the Wilson. |
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Posted: 4/15/2016 12:47:48 PM EDT
[#30]
I am new to service rifle shooting, but I been shooting for years and have built AR-15's, so I am not new to shooting. I like the Wilson but I just wonder if the Shilen would be better. I would also just be shooting off the bench for accuracy when not practicing for or in competitons.
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Posted: 4/15/2016 1:49:58 PM EDT
[#31]
Off topic question. not a trick question.
Are people still using 52's for close to medium range shooting(Service Rifle)? |
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Posted: 4/15/2016 2:21:00 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Off topic question. not a trick question.
Are people still using 52's for close to medium range shooting(Service Rifle)? I don't, but know guys who play around with them. They are freakishly accurate, I think slightly cheaper, and the recoil is non-existent. To some minds, this makes for better off-hand accuracy, since the bullet is out the BBL before the gun has more time to move, and less recoil off-hand too, moving the gun. So in theory, more accurate for off-hand. And less recoil recovery during rapid fire stages. I don't think any of these factors really will make the difference between match winners most of the time, but that is one advantage. Personally, I suspect BBL wear is higher with lighter bullets and will result in a more quickly eroded BBL, since higher velocity and more gas volume (more powder), to gas-jet erode your rifle. But don't have any data on that - just a theory. As to how much real-world difference that theory makes, who knows. I once played around with some free 35 gr bullets I got. To be honest, they were remarkably accurate, and recoil was like shooting a .22. |
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Posted: 4/15/2016 2:28:56 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't, but know guys who play around with them. They are freakishly accurate, I think slightly cheaper, and the recoil is non-existent. To some minds, this makes for better off-hand accuracy, since the bullet is out the BBL before the gun has more time to move, and less recoil off-hand too, moving the gun. So in theory, more accurate for off-hand. And less recoil recovery during rapid fire stages. I don't think any of these factors really will make the difference between match winners most of the time, but that is one advantage. Personally, I suspect BBL wear is higher with lighter bullets and will result in a more quickly eroded BBL, since higher velocity and more gas volume (more powder), to gas-jet erode your rifle. But don't have any data on that - just a theory. As to how much real-world difference that theory makes, who knows. I once played around with some free 35 gr bullets I got. To be honest, they were remarkably accurate, and recoil was like shooting a .22. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Off topic question. not a trick question.
Are people still using 52's for close to medium range shooting(Service Rifle)? I don't, but know guys who play around with them. They are freakishly accurate, I think slightly cheaper, and the recoil is non-existent. To some minds, this makes for better off-hand accuracy, since the bullet is out the BBL before the gun has more time to move, and less recoil off-hand too, moving the gun. So in theory, more accurate for off-hand. And less recoil recovery during rapid fire stages. I don't think any of these factors really will make the difference between match winners most of the time, but that is one advantage. Personally, I suspect BBL wear is higher with lighter bullets and will result in a more quickly eroded BBL, since higher velocity and more gas volume (more powder), to gas-jet erode your rifle. But don't have any data on that - just a theory. As to how much real-world difference that theory makes, who knows. I once played around with some free 35 gr bullets I got. To be honest, they were remarkably accurate, and recoil was like shooting a .22. 35?  
Thank You!
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Posted: 4/15/2016 2:44:01 PM EDT
[#34]
I guess the more I look at it, I would rather get a good barrel for the least amount of money as possible. Would you recommend getting a $220 Wilson barrel over a $270 Shilen barrel? How much of an accuracy different is there.
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Posted: 4/15/2016 2:58:43 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess the more I look at it, I would rather get a good barrel for the least amount of money as possible. Would you recommend getting a $220 Wilson barrel over a $270 Shilen barrel? How much of an accuracy different is there. If you're new to service rifle shooting I would recommend the Wilson barrel. I'm not treading on your potential personal accuracy potential, but you will most likely not be able to out-shoot the Wilson. I've had my lunch money stolen by Junior shooters with RRA (Wilson) catalog guns. It's purely position shooting combined with your knowledge of your rifle and capabilities. Save some cash now. If you decide the service rifle game is for you, you're going to need every cent you have for other accessories: - spotting scope ($300-$1600) - scope stand ($200-$400) - jacket ($100-$400) - stool/ cart ($40-$500) - mat ($100-$150) - etc. ($$$) |
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Posted: 4/15/2016 3:00:35 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess the more I look at it, I would rather get a good barrel for the least amount of money as possible. Would you recommend getting a $220 Wilson barrel over a $270 Shilen barrel? How much of an accuracy different is there. think about it this way... If you get the Wilson you'll always wonder "What if" you wont with the Shilen 
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Posted: 4/15/2016 3:02:14 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
think about it this way... If you get the Wilson you'll always wonder "What if" you wont with the Shilen Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I guess the more I look at it, I would rather get a good barrel for the least amount of money as possible. Would you recommend getting a $220 Wilson barrel over a $270 Shilen barrel? How much of an accuracy different is there. think about it this way... If you get the Wilson you'll always wonder "What if" you wont with the Shilen In either case you won't have to wonder. It's position shooting. After learning your natural point of aim the rest is up to you. It's stock car racing with rifles. |
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Posted: 4/15/2016 3:02:56 PM EDT
[#38]
That's sort of what I was thinking. Do you think it would be worth $80 more than the Shilen for a cut rifled Satern or stick with the Shilen?
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Posted: 4/15/2016 3:08:30 PM EDT
[#39]
What Shilen blank is he using? At that price I doubt its the Select Match. I'd get the Wilson.
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Posted: 4/15/2016 3:11:32 PM EDT
[#40]
I guess I am learning that it is not really bench rest shooting. That is sort of making me want to spend less money on the barrel because you will not be shooting 1/2 inch groups either way.
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Posted: 4/15/2016 3:12:27 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What Shilen blank is he using? At that price I doubt its the Select Match. I'd get the Wilson. You are probably right. It does not really say. |
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Posted: 4/15/2016 3:13:05 PM EDT
[#42]
Edit: double post
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Posted: 4/15/2016 3:34:22 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
think about it this way... If you get the Wilson you'll always wonder "What if" you wont with the Shilen Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I guess the more I look at it, I would rather get a good barrel for the least amount of money as possible. Would you recommend getting a $220 Wilson barrel over a $270 Shilen barrel? How much of an accuracy different is there. think about it this way... If you get the Wilson you'll always wonder "What if" you wont with the Shilen With that attitude, anything less than a Krieger/Lilja/bench rest barrel would hold you back. Get the cheapest, quality barrel, OP. The rest of the gear will be pricey. Then, post some scores. After that, we can give you much better advice. Every barrel you mention will shoot cleans if the shooter can. |
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Posted: 4/15/2016 3:42:49 PM EDT
[#44]
It seems WOA is all out of their wilson barrels and the wait time could be 4-6 weeks. Any other sources of in stock barrels for $250 or a similar price?
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Posted: 4/15/2016 4:18:40 PM EDT
[#45]
Try Brownells?
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Posted: 4/15/2016 4:21:43 PM EDT
[#46]
I really like WOA so I guess I will just buy one from them and wait. Or for $50 more I could get it right now because they have the Shilen's in stock...
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Posted: 4/15/2016 5:56:09 PM EDT
[#47]
Do not forget or underestimate this Lothar Walther barrel- https://www.customar15.net/shop/ar-15-upper-receivers/barrels-ar-15-upper-receivers/lothar-walther-18in-223-wylde-match-grade-barrel-choose-profile/
Ok not exactly a service barrel but a great barrel if you want accuracy. |
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Posted: 4/15/2016 6:08:36 PM EDT
[#48]
I would like a 20 inch barrel because this upper will be just for service rifle matches, otherwise that LW barrel looks nice. I am just not sure if the extra $50 is worth the 4-6 weeks of time saved. I hate to spend $370 on the Douglas, but $290 for the Shilen is not too bad, since I would prefer not to wait a month. Would you recommend a pre ban or post ban?
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Posted: 4/15/2016 7:01:59 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would like a 20 inch barrel because this upper will be just for service rifle matches, otherwise that LW barrel looks nice. I am just not sure if the extra $50 is worth the 4-6 weeks of time saved. I hate to spend $370 on the Douglas, but $290 for the Shilen is not too bad, since I would prefer not to wait a month. Would you recommend a pre ban or post ban? This is exactly what I would recommend. I would also make sure to order a front sight base installed and M4 feedramps. I would also (eventually) get the front sight modified for windage. |
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Posted: 4/15/2016 7:07:33 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I would like a 20 inch barrel because this upper will be just for service rifle matches, otherwise that LW barrel looks nice. I am just not sure if the extra $50 is worth the 4-6 weeks of time saved. I hate to spend $370 on the Douglas, but $290 for the Shilen is not too bad, since I would prefer not to wait a month. Would you recommend a pre ban or post ban? This is exactly what I would recommend. Tweeter that's a real nice barrell. I think that is on my final list of two I am considering. That barrel has a 4-6 week wait time, or I could buy this: http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17947&cat=311&page=1, which is in stock and would ship immediately. What do you think? And I know your link did not have a threaded barrel, is that what you would recommend? |
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