Pardon my ignorance but I'd like this clarified. I've tried doing double taps two ways. First is squeezing the trigger as fast as possible to try to beat recoil. Personally, I don't feel comfortable doing this because it always feels like my second shot is a flyer. The other way is firing the first shot and letting the muzzle settle and firing the second. The sight picture isn't perfect on the second shot but it does the job well enough to hit a paper plate at 25 yards without a problem.

My question is which is more correct? It seems like waiting for a semi-okay sight picture for the second shot defeats the purpose of double-tapping but it feels much more controllable.

I'd also like to know what the proper method is for a pistol as well. The muzzle flip on a pistol is a lot worse than an AR and I feel more hesitant to squeeze off the second round if I'm not absolutely sure of where it will end up.

Thanks.

Quoted: My question is which is more correct? It seems like waiting for a semi-okay sight picture for the second shot defeats the purpose of double-tapping but it feels much more controllable. .

for a carbine both are valid.

The first is reffered to as a hammer, and is only done are really close range.  The second sounds more like a controlled pair.

Which you use depends on how close you are to the target (and how well you control the firearm).

I'd be interested to know proper technique for double-taps with pistols as well.

In competitive shooting there is no such thing as a "double tap", most don't like the term.  Its always 2 aimed shots.  With practice it can be done very quickly, like 12-15 hundredths of a second for a target at 10 yards.  Just about anybody can shoot two shot real fast but is takes work to see the sights twice and get two hits on the target.

Sight picture, break the shot, and as soon as the sights come back break the second.  The more you do it you can learn to "time the gun" meaning just after the first shot breaks and the gun starts to recoil you drive the gun back down for the second shot.  This is not a flinch where you push the gun down as you're breaking the shot, but actually driving the gun back down AFTER the shot break. Like most things its just practice, practice, practice.

If you want to see it check out this video, of the El Prezidente an action pistol drill. At the buzzer you turn and draw, shoot 2 shots each on 3 targets 10 yards away, reload the shoot 2 more shots each on 3 targets.  This guy does in 3.02 seconds

El Prez

Quoted: In competitive shooting there is no such thing as a "double tap", most don't like the term.  Its always 2 aimed shots.  With practice it can be done very quickly, like 12-15 hundredths of a second for a target at 10 yards.  Just about anybody can shoot two shot real fast but is takes work to see the sights twice and get two hits on the target. Sight picture, break the shot, and as soon as the sights come back break the second.  The more you do it you can learn to "time the gun" meaning just after the first shot breaks and the gun starts to recoil you drive the gun back down for the second shot.  This is not a flinch where you push the gun down as you're breaking the shot, but actually driving the gun back down AFTER the shot break. Like most things its just practice, practice, practice. If you want to see it check out this video, of the El Prezidente an action pistol drill. At the buzzer you turn and draw, shoot 2 shots each on 3 targets 10 yards away, reload the shoot 2 more shots each on 3 targets.  This guy does in 3.02 seconds El Prez

Good lord that is some fast shooting.

Forest said it.  The "hammer" is useful at extremely close range and the controlled pair, which can be done very quickly with practice, is for when time allows a second sight picture. Time, distance and situational factors will dictate which is proper.  This all applies to the handgun as well.  The controlled pair requires that you acquire a proper sight picture 3 times.  Sight picture, squeeze, recoil, recovery, sight picture, squeeze, recoil, recovery, sight picture.  Having a good grip and stance (technique) that controls muzzle flip and allows the weapon to return to its original position after recoil will make either technique work very well.  Practice slowly and deliberately to develop good habits and then push your speed.  

Quoted: Good lord that is some fast shooting.

Yes it is.  

Jake is a Grand Master class shooter, the top tier.  He's breaking shots in .12-13 second and the transition between targets is about the same.  If you watch closely he does his turn, draw and the first 6 shots in 1.57 seconds and he does see the sight and targets. Truly amazing

In my instructor classes in WA state, we've been taught, "hammers" and "controlled pairs"

A "hammer" shot is one sight picture, two rounds.  You get your sights lined up, firm grip and let loose two rounds quickly.  You will be surprised how close they are together with practice.

Then move up to the head of the target and do a "controlled pair" into the "T" zone.  So, two sight pictures, two rounds.  It'll sound like:   "boom,boom....boom....boom". into the head to finish the string.

Quoted: Quoted: In competitive shooting there is no such thing as a "double tap", most don't like the term.  Its always 2 aimed shots.  With practice it can be done very quickly, like 12-15 hundredths of a second for a target at 10 yards.  Just about anybody can shoot two shot real fast but is takes work to see the sights twice and get two hits on the target. Sight picture, break the shot, and as soon as the sights come back break the second.  The more you do it you can learn to "time the gun" meaning just after the first shot breaks and the gun starts to recoil you drive the gun back down for the second shot.  This is not a flinch where you push the gun down as you're breaking the shot, but actually driving the gun back down AFTER the shot break. Like most things its just practice, practice, practice. If you want to see it check out this video, of the El Prezidente an action pistol drill. At the buzzer you turn and draw, shoot 2 shots each on 3 targets 10 yards away, reload the shoot 2 more shots each on 3 targets.  This guy does in 3.02 seconds El Prez Good lord that is some fast shooting.

I was watching OLN the other night and on some shooting show they had a guy from Louissianna who broke the world record for the fastest 60 shots out of a double action revolver.  I think he did it in 19 seconds and he fired 6 shots in under 3.  

Quoted: I was watching OLN the other night and on some shooting show they had a guy from Louissianna who broke the world record for the fastest 60 shots out of a double action revolver.  I think he did it in 19 seconds and he fired 6 shots in under 3.

That was Jerry Miculek.  In the past with a S&W model 625 45acp double action revolver, he shot 6 shots, a reload and another 6 shots in 2.99 seconds.  With an 8-shot 627 double action revolver he shot 8 shots in less than 1 second.  Most folks can't do that with a semi-auto.

Quoted: In competitive shooting there is no such thing as a "double tap", most don't like the term.  Its always 2 aimed shots.  With practice it can be done very quickly, like 12-15 hundredths of a second for a target at 10 yards.  Just about anybody can shoot two shot real fast but is takes work to see the sights twice and get two hits on the target. Sight picture, break the shot, and as soon as the sights come back break the second.  The more you do it you can learn to "time the gun" meaning just after the first shot breaks and the gun starts to recoil you drive the gun back down for the second shot.  This is not a flinch where you push the gun down as you're breaking the shot, but actually driving the gun back down AFTER the shot break. Like most things its just practice, practice, practice. If you want to see it check out this video, of the El Prezidente an action pistol drill. At the buzzer you turn and draw, shoot 2 shots each on 3 targets 10 yards away, reload the shoot 2 more shots each on 3 targets.  This guy does in 3.02 seconds El Prez

I was even more impressed with his reload...that was incredible!

Sure he's fast, but some of his hits were shitty. 5 seconds with full score hits is better than 3 seconds with rounds off-center.

Quoted: Sure he's fast, but some of his hits were shitty. 5 seconds with full score hits is better than 3 seconds with rounds off-center.

+1

that last shot barely hit the target--middle target, far right lower, near the edge.....still very FAST

Quoted: Sure he's fast, but some of his hits were shitty. 5 seconds with full score hits is better than 3 seconds with rounds off-center.

Gotta learn to be quick, real slow.

Just don't hold the trigger as long as for 3

Try an Enidine hydraulic recoil buffer. With my AR pulled in tight to my shoulder (as it should ALWAYS be) it barely moves on recoil with the Enidine installed. Made more difference than I ever expected. I haven't done "double taps" but it should "hammer" two in pretty tight without acquiring a second sight picture. I prefer sighted fire though, so I don't practice "hammer" drills.

Quoted: Quoted: In competitive shooting there is no such thing as a "double tap", most don't like the term.  Its always 2 aimed shots.  With practice it can be done very quickly, like 12-15 hundredths of a second for a target at 10 yards.  Just about anybody can shoot two shot real fast but is takes work to see the sights twice and get two hits on the target. Sight picture, break the shot, and as soon as the sights come back break the second.  The more you do it you can learn to "time the gun" meaning just after the first shot breaks and the gun starts to recoil you drive the gun back down for the second shot.  This is not a flinch where you push the gun down as you're breaking the shot, but actually driving the gun back down AFTER the shot break. Like most things its just practice, practice, practice. If you want to see it check out this video, of the El Prezidente an action pistol drill. At the buzzer you turn and draw, shoot 2 shots each on 3 targets 10 yards away, reload the shoot 2 more shots each on 3 targets.  This guy does in 3.02 seconds El Prez I was even more impressed with his reload...that was incredible!

+1

Quoted: That was Jerry Miculek.  In the past with a S&W model 625 45acp double action revolver, he shot 6 shots, a reload and another 6 shots in 2.99 seconds.  With an 8-shot 627 double action revolver he shot 8 shots in less than 1 second.  Most folks can't do that with a semi-auto.

The cycling factor with a semi-auto is "fixed", i.e. based on the physics of action/reaction of the cartridge ignition and resulting pressures, friction, etc. On a revolver, cycling is determined by how fast one can "flex" their finger and the mechanics of the revolver, not on the physics.

Anyone having watched "American Shooter" has seen Bob Munden fire five rounds out of a single action revolver soooo fast it sounded like one shot.

What some people are calling a hammer, others call a hammered pair.  Each shot that you fire that isn't a hammered pair or "double tap" should get two sight pictures. In the students that come through our center, lack of follow through is almost as bad as the flinch with regards to the most common error.

If you want better double taps, work out the bugs in your stance first. Then work on shot progression with small targets (3" dots at 7 yards.)  Double taps don't seem very prudent beyond 15 yards or so, where well aimed shots make all the difference. Who was it that said  gunfighting is taking your time in a hurry?

What the competition shooter forgets is that you'll likely need to be at a maximum rate of movement evasion while shooting. Ever watch videos of cop gunfights at traffic stops? Practice moving and shooting well at the same time and you'll be ahead of the curve.

If you want more details on the stance or anything else, IM me.

US Army Advanced Urban Combat Course teaches controlled pairs, no double taps. In training, our double taps were 6-8 inches apart depending on shooter and distance. We were taught;

Sight picture - Bang, Sight picture - Bang, third sight picture and verify if more shots are needed. With lots of practice, controlled pairs gets fast real quick and most rounds are just a couple inches apart at speed.

The linked video is fast! The reload time was incredibly short.

Thanks for the input guys. I'm currently at college and devoid of firepower at this moment but I will be going home in a few weeks and I'd like to start practicing again. I want to focus on the correct technique. I can't purchase pistols because I'm not of age so I don't feel the immediate need to work on pistol shooting stances... yet. In one more year, I'll be busy putting in the paperwork for a pistol purchase permit (fuck you, New Jersey) and my C&R app.

Quoted: The linked video is fast! The reload time was incredibly short. Thanks for the input guys. I'm currently at college and devoid of firepower at this moment but I will be going home in a few weeks and I'd like to start practicing again. I want to focus on the correct technique. I can't purchase pistols because I'm not of age so I don't feel the immediate need to work on pistol shooting stances... yet. In one more year, I'll be busy putting in the paperwork for a pistol purchase permit (fuck you, New Jersey) and my C&R app.

Stance applies to rifles and shotguns as well. Not just for pistols.

Quoted: What some people are calling a hammer, others call a hammered pair.  Each shot that you fire that isn't a hammered pair or "double tap" should get two sight pictures. In the students that come through our center, lack of follow through is almost as bad as the flinch with regards to the most common error. If you want better double taps, work out the bugs in your stance first. Then work on shot progression with small targets (3" dots at 7 yards.)  Double taps don't seem very prudent beyond 15 yards or so, where well aimed shots make all the difference. Who was it that said  gunfighting is taking your time in a hurry? What the competition shooter forgets is that you'll likely need to be at a maximum rate of movement evasion while shooting. Ever watch videos of cop gunfights at traffic stops? Practice moving and shooting well at the same time and you'll be ahead of the curve. If you want more details on the stance or anything else, IM me.

A little off topic, but excellent point on shooting on the move. Those nice tight groups that the target guys get go to shit as soon as they try to do it on the move for the first time. I know mine did.

Roger,. I think only a part was OT. Just trying to help out where I can.

Plates and competition like that is all about rythem drills. He is seeing the sights, but there is no target discrimination or threat evaluation. Throw in a bit of shoot/no shoot and it slows way down.

I was talking to some of the top shooters in the country down at SHOT this year. They aren't that much faster than everyone else, they just do it consistantly. Clearing leather and putting six rounds on the e-type is one thing. Do it on a 12 inch square at the same speed and it's an achievement.

Did anyone catch Jarrett's demo of the concealed draw and shoot in under a second? If you practice for 20 minutes a day for 7 days you can do it too.

Double taps are, strictly speaking, a product of stance and grip. Locking out fully, knowing the muzzle flip of your gun, and trigger manipulation.  For instance, try the flip and press trigger squeeze for a while and then you can start working on sear reset. That seems to help a lot of folks speed up their follow up shots.  If it's worth shooting once...

Quoted: Roger,. I think only a part was OT. Just trying to help out where I can. Plates and competition like that is all about rythem drills. He is seeing the sights, but there is no target discrimination or threat evaluation. Throw in a bit of shoot/no shoot and it slows way down. I was talking to some of the top shooters in the country down at SHOT this year. They aren't that much faster than everyone else, they just do it consistantly. Clearing leather and putting six rounds on the e-type is one thing. Do it on a 12 inch square at the same speed and it's an achievement. Did anyone catch Jarrett's demo of the concealed draw and shoot in under a second? If you practice for 20 minutes a day for 7 days you can do it too. Double taps are, strictly speaking, a product of stance and grip. Locking out fully, knowing the muzzle flip of your gun, and trigger manipulation.  For instance, try the flip and press trigger squeeze for a while and then you can start working on sear reset. That seems to help a lot of folks speed up their follow up shots.  If it's worth shooting once...

Please don't think I was razzing you for posting that. I thought it was an excellent point and wasn't just forum policing like some here love to do.  I, for one, appreciate the helpful stuff people like you post regardless of where it is posted as long as I get to see it.

Now, tell me what the flip and press drill is, please.

Flip and press.

On target, squeeze, follow through. Most people fail to follow through with the shot.

Instead of yanking off another round, actually flip your finger off the trigger to the front of the trigger guard. Then , re-engage the trigger and squeeze (slow steady pressure to the rear). This will give you enough time to reacquire those sights and make a great shot. Good shots don't count.

When you've gotten better at the sight intercept drill,  you can notice a definite improvement in your secondary shots.  This is taught at a lot of reactive shooting schools, which is what we're talking about with double taps and controlled pairs.  Understand though that with double taps you get two sight pictures for two rounds, as opposed to two sight pictures for each round.

I normally teach students this; After each round (not double taps) you need to ask yourself 3 things.

Did I hit the target?
Did the round get the desired effect?
If I have too, can I shoot again.

A fella named Dunn taught me that and it works for almost all deadly force situations.

Hammer down, pucker up, etc... try doing this.  Hold on tight, compress every muscle in your body pressing the stock hard into our shoulder and then just press-press, then relax and move.

Here's what I look like shooting a classifier.  There are 6 targets, 2 at 10 yards, 2 at 11.5 and 2 at 12 yards arranged in a V.  I shot it in 6.03 seconds and I did see each sight picture with my G35.  Of the 12 shots I put 2 outside of the "A" zone.

Raw Deal

Best to "save target as" and open with Real Player

Old Time exhibition shooter Ed McGivern ("Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting"), with out-of-the-box S&W revolvers, did 5 shots in 2/5ths of a second. distance of 15ft, all 5 shots could be covered by a man's hand from the base of the thumb to fingertips. this was in the 1950's. He could do it with either hand, or both hands. all with off-the-shelf S&W revolvers. back then the smallest a timer could identify was 5ths of a second. all timing started from holstered weapon.!!

McGivern put on this exhibition many times. It's not the weapon, it's the skill of the operator.

Quoted: It's not the weapon, it's the skill of the operator.

BINGO!  we have a winner!

Quoted: Flip and press. On target, squeeze, follow through. Most people fail to follow through with the shot. Instead of yanking off another round, actually flip your finger off the trigger to the front of the trigger guard. Then , re-engage the trigger and squeeze (slow steady pressure to the rear). This will give you enough time to reacquire those sights and make a great shot. Good shots don't count. When you've gotten better at the sight intercept drill,  you can notice a definite improvement in your secondary shots.  This is taught at a lot of reactive shooting schools, which is what we're talking about with double taps and controlled pairs.  Understand though that with double taps you get two sight pictures for two rounds, as opposed to two sight pictures for each round. I normally teach students this; After each round (not double taps) you need to ask yourself 3 things. Did I hit the target? Did the round get the desired effect? If I have too, can I shoot again. A fella named Dunn taught me that and it works for almost all deadly force situations.

I see. Thanks for the explaination. I learned to be big on follow through when I learned to shoot a scoped rifle from a bench/bags. Saw a big improvement in my handgun skills when I carried follow through over from rifles to pistols. And actually you should see three sight pictures for two rounds on a double tap, right? A deliberate double tap for me would be sight picture... boom... 2nd sight picture... boom... follow through sight picture re-acquire. I always have one more sight picture acquired than I have shots fired. A single shot is two sight pictures.

The only time I'd mess with deliberate double taps would be on multiple threats. Two shots as fast as I can aim them at threat #1 followed by two fast shots to each subsequent threat then assess and put more rounds into biggest remaining threat and so on. In a one on one battle I'm trained to shoot until the threat is gone so it would be as many shots as I can aim in as little time as I can do it until the threat no longer exists.

As for assessment after each shot, I've been trained to assess as I shoot instead of shooting and assessing after each round, or any given number of rounds to eliminate reverting to that in a real life gunfight. Not saying that's what you are teaching. I think you are basically using a version of what we use. Basically shoot until the threat is gone assessing as you go. We just don't get trained to review the questions you are teaching. We simply ask ourself if the threat still exists.

We do drills where anytime one or both turning targets in each shooter's lanes are facing the shooter they are a threat. They may stay up long enough for a single fast shot or they may stay up long enough for the shooter to empty a mag and reload to continue before it turns away. Even when we are shooting steel poppers they set some up to go down with one shot and some won't fall without being hit quickly with several shots. Our Blackwater target system has pie plates and they fall on rubber bumpers. They can and do bounce back up, sometimes several times, and we have to continue to hit them until they stay down. Great training for shooting until the threat stops! Some complain about them bouncing back up. I love it. Means I get to waste more county ammo and I get drilled on shooting until the threat is gone. Good stuff.  

Where do you teach, by the way? You can IM me if you prefer...

Quoted: It's not the weapon, it's the skill of the operator.

Best quote I've seen all day...

Quoted: Quoted: I was watching OLN the other night and on some shooting show they had a guy from Louissianna who broke the world record for the fastest 60 shots out of a double action revolver.  I think he did it in 19 seconds and he fired 6 shots in under 3.   That was Jerry Miculek.  In the past with a S&W model 625 45acp double action revolver, he shot 6 shots, a reload and another 6 shots in 2.99 seconds.  With an 8-shot 627 double action revolver he shot 8 shots in less than 1 second.  Most folks can't do that with a semi-auto.

I've seen that, and it sounds like a FA burst, it's ubelievable how fast he can shoot.

A true double tap is 1 sight picture, 2 pulls of the trigger. A controlled pair is reaquiring the sight picture after each shot.

Quoted: ..I normally teach students this; After each round (not double taps) you need to ask yourself 3 things. Did I hit the target? Did the round get the desired effect? If I have too, can I shoot again. ...

I've been tought Ammo is cheap - life is priceless so if it's worth sending 1 round downrange it's worth it to send 2.

Repeat until target is no longer in your sight picture (i.e. it's dropped).

Especially if your using a handgun as they are underpowered weapons.

Defensive encounters are too close and happen way to fast to examine the results of each individual shot.

Originally posted by Forest; I've been tought Ammo is cheap - life is priceless so if it's worth sending 1 round downrange it's worth it to send 2.

Yes, using controlled pairs.

Repeat until target is no longer in your sight picture (i.e. it's dropped).

If your double tapping, your sight picture is moving off target as subsequent shots are fired. Just because the target is no longer in your sights ie. dropped, doesn't mean the fight is over. You have to evaluate the affect of your shooting at some point.

Defensive encounters are too close and happen way to fast to examine the results of each individual shot.

Double Tap vs Controlled Pairs is also determined by the attack range. If you run into the bad guy going around a corner, double tap is the appropriate response. If he is at the end of a hall from you, controlled pairs is more affective.

The reaquisition of the sight picture after each shot is extremely fast and accurate as all shots are aimed. In practice, my double taps were far enough apart sometimes to miss the target with the second shot.

The reaquisition of the sight picture aids in follow up and is essential if the target is moving. This is also part of verifying if your shots are having the required affect as you see the target through your sights.

Controlled pairs takes practice and is an exercise in controlled fear. Double taps can turn into "Spray and Pray" if not controlled and you don't want bullets missing the target and causing collateral damage.

Both techiques have their place. The situation dictates. Generally, controlled pairs are better at all but contact distances. This is based on my experience.

Quoted: If your double tapping, your sight picture is moving off target as subsequent shots are fired. Just because the target is no longer in your sights ie. dropped, doesn't mean the fight is over. You have to evaluate the affect of your shooting at some point.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear on this.

When the target has dropped IS the point you 'evaluate' - you don't do it while the target is on their feet.

Defensive encounters are too close and happen way to fast to examine the results of each individual shot. Double Tap vs Controlled Pairs is also determined by the attack range. If you run into the bad guy going around a corner, double tap is the appropriate response. If he is at the end of a hall from you, controlled pairs is more affective.

Agreed.

I just didn't agree with the other posting saying to fire 1 round, then survey your results.

I believe the term is 'Non-standard response'.

It's hard to visualize but the reaquisition of the sights after each shot in controlled pairs shooting is a fraction of a second, especially with an AR as there is little barrel movement after firing.

The way I stated it sounds like you do a dedicated target evaluation after each shot. In reality you are reaquiring your sight picture and evaluating the affects on the target simultaneously. If, in reaquiring your sight picture the target disappears because it dropped, you have just evaluated your shot affects.

It took me 500 rounds a day for 5 days to reach a level of proficiency at controlled pairs. We did do double taps but only at contact or near contact distances. Again based on the distance.

Controlled pairs were required in the Army Advanced Urban Combat Course as we were shooting at 3" targets at 10 meters or less and 6" targets at 10-25 meters. I can't keep 2 rounds in 6" at any distance with double taps but I can put 30 out of 30 rounds in a 6" circle out to 25 meters using controlled pairs, with just a little practice.

My recommendation to CK1 is too practice both techniques and use the one best suited for the situation. More tools in the tool box so to speak.