User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 4:30:09 PM EDT
[#1]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 4:30:13 PM EDT
[#2]
Agree 70-75g rd can only do so much. Somthing double that would be better all around. hm .308
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 4:30:26 PM EDT
[#3]
Brings back memories.........
 max |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 4:39:30 PM EDT
[#4]
I'm not trying to start any firestorms, either. I didn't know that thread existed.
I'm inclined to believe the guy, his aren't the only accounts I've read about the AR not performing well. Edit: At the very least I've given Michael Yon a BTT of sorts. People need to read his stuff. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 4:58:27 PM EDT
[#5]
All weapons systems can fail to stop with multiple hits. When an M-14 does it, it is called a fluke and when an M-4 does it, it is cited as proof of the inadequacy of the 5.56. Never mind there are far more examples of failures to stop from the 7.62x39 and the AK-47. This in a example of a phenomenom called 'selection bias'. You only seek and see data that confirms your predetermined notions. Like when the media dwells on friendly casualties and ignores victories. Most offical AAR's show the 5.56 is performing quite adequately. Initial reports are showing the MK 262 Mod 1 is performing spectacularly. Despite this, I think the 6.8 is worthy of study and very possibly adoption but lets not try to exagerate either positively or negatively the true performance of the 5.56 to make its case as this does nothing but risk our credibility. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 5:34:47 PM EDT
[#6]
 The problem we see is that all of our news is anecdotal, without context and without data for comparison and contrast. I personally would NOT want to face anyone with an M4 pointed at me, even if I had an antiaircraft gun. Body armor does a lot better against larger caliber projectiles too-7.62mm 123gr slugs from an AK can whack a person around pretty good, but standard body armor absorbs and deflects the energy so the bullet doesn't do significant damage. It all boils down to NOT believing that the entire Ordnance Corps is made up of idiots who want GIs to get killed because they're under armed. There is a LOT of science behind the 5.56mm round and the combination of round and rifle we field right now. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 5:43:40 PM EDT
[#7]
The funny thing is I really am a Scientist and I DID STAY IN A HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS LAST NIGHT! |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 5:57:55 PM EDT
[#8]
 Me scientist too-me computer scientist! (Which means it only takes about 18 months for me to be out of date...)Unfortunately it's hard to get the real scientific data that the Army collects every day-it's classified and for good reason. If everybody knew what they were learning about details and specifics, that would be A Bad Thing. I urge everyone to be Critical Thinkers and particularly Critical Readers of News Stories. THINK when you read, please! |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 6:12:17 PM EDT
[#9]
I doubt the performance data on the 5.56 is classified. However, it would be a bitch to FOIA it up as I suspect it is relatively well buried and esoteric enough the DoD employee who processes the FOIA would proabally not be tuned in enough to locate what you really are angling for. |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 6:24:24 PM EDT
[#10]
I doubt anyone's walked away from the business end of a M82, but I'm just being a wise-ass.
I don't have any bias. I don't like what I'm reading, and I am very fond of my AR. But I've seen the videos, and read numerous accounts. If this is all true, I feel terrible about it. I'm not AR-bashing here. I've got X,000 rounds of XM193 on-hand. I didn't buy it because I thought the AR or the 5.56 is crap.
I haven't heard this. I may only be privvy to the bad news...
I don't claim to have the solution. All I know is when our guys pull the trigger, I want the bad guys to drop. If we have to pay for everyone to carry Barrett 6.8's, then so be it. I had similiar feelings just as I was getting out and the military was moving from the .45 to 9mm. I don't want to argue, but this isn't some CNN hack talking about how the M4 will not kill stray dogs... With that being said, I think Michaels blog deserves the attention here. Dave |
||||
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 6:28:22 PM EDT
[#11]
And it has certainly got it. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 6:33:18 PM EDT
[#12]
Any fellow Marine I have ever talked to that has had the unfortunate opportunity to shoot another human has said that the 5.56mm will kill. I have been lucky not to ever have shot at another man, but if the chance ever comes my way, I will trust my weapon as I trust the Marines who have told me it works.
Semper Fi! |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 6:39:53 PM EDT
[#13]
One thing that has always baffled me is why our Military doesn't use the 12ga Brenneke Sabot Slug with the 870s they have over there, or with faster shotguns. I have seen one of those rounds penetrate in one car door and out the other. They have amazing and devasting penetrating ability. You could take out an engine block, steering gear, tires, hell even wheels with a semi-auto shotgun while shooting at a moving car, and a Streetsweeper or USAS wuold make swiss cheese of it with the Sabot slug. One squad member with a high cap semi-auto or FA shotgun with these could stand a decent chance of detonating a car bomber, in the absence of a 25mm Bushmaster cannon.
Shooting at a 2000+ lb moving vehicle made of steel, glass and rubber with a 5.56mm rifle is about as far from it's intended use as it could ever be, short of hunting Bull Elephants in India.  
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 6:45:00 PM EDT
[#14]
Damn, I gots to get me some of those slugs. How much do they cost?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 6:49:43 PM EDT
[#15]
They don't fit in an AR... 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 6:52:20 PM EDT
[#16]
Not that bad, about $2 ea, in packs of 5. What is odd, that with all the hoopla about armor piercing this and that, they have not been banned. They use the same principle as armor piercing 120mm SABOT MBT main gun rounds. Just not good for home defense, way too much penetration. Check out this link for the ballistic info. $12.77/5 at wholesale hunter.   |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 6:56:04 PM EDT
[#17]
Maybe they should just mount shotguns under M16's again and shoot these out of them. Once the car has stopped they can use the 5.56...........
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 7:14:36 PM EDT
[#18]
Screw the hague convention and start issuing hollow points.Some time ago I read about a former SEAL who was a contractor and he used a 5.56 round with what was called a blended metal bullet.Hit the guy in the ass cheek and it destroyed internally everything on the left hand side of his body including kidney and stomach damage.Keep 5.56 just make a better bullet and stop playing by the rules the rest of world wants to play by.Its war kill the enemy with the best technology we have...I hate when things like the hague strive to make war less brutal.Its war if you dont want brutality dont go to war....if you do go use every ounce of technology to kill the enemy as quickly as possible...and if it happens to be messy and brutal..well thats war.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 7:24:51 PM EDT
[#19]
Yeah I read about the blended metal stuff a while ago. The problem with it is it is very dependent on temperature to work properly. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2005 7:31:50 PM EDT
[#20]
I don't think they can be banned because the ATF can not reasonably twist these into their definition of a 'handgun' round. |
||
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
.jpg)
