hey all,

I know this is probably a weird question but does it really matter if the AR has a fixed carry handle or a removeable one??

I only ask because i am looking to buy my first AR and do not have experience with useing either the fixed or removeable handle, and plus alot of the rifles for sale especially from this forum all have a fixed handle. So i don't want to buy an AR with a fixed handle and realize i dont like it and should of gotten the removeable one. And also i ask because the fixed handle AR's seem to be alot cheaper then the ones with the removeable carry handle.

So i am curious to hear all of your opinions on the Pro's and con's of both the Removable and Fixed carry handle.


thanks to all in advance,

Eycee*                    

Return to zero is perfect when I take mine off and on. I have a Stag arms upper FT witha colt carry handle, and a BM xm-15 FT witha BM carry handle. Never had a second thought about it.

If you get seriously bit by the AR-15 bug, you may regret a fixed carry handle at some point, simply because it limits options down the road for optics you might want to mount on the rifle.  After all, with a removable carry handle, you pretty much have all the features of a fixed handle, PLUS flexibility.  

My FIRST AR had a fixed carry handle.  Every AR I have bought since then has had a flat-top and removable handle (All of them have some sort of optic.)  I still like the original - so it's not like I REGRET the fixed handle per se, but for a first rifle, I'd definitely get a removable handle, just to keep your options open.


Just my opinion.

Get the flat top. it gives you the best of both worlds.  A fixed gives you just one world. and eventually you may want optics. I got a fixed back in 94 cause the flatops were not yet the rage. I finally took the plunge two years ago and sent my upper back to Bushmaster and bought their flattop (Free Installation) now I could'nt be happier.

And if you never use Optics. simple, leave the carry handle on and shoot away with your Irons.

Getting a fixed carry handle just limits your option. and your resale will be better if you decide AR's are not for you
(yeah...like that's gonna happen...)

Fixed = old school
Removable = flattop = better mounting options = better rifle.

IMHO

If you even have the inkling that you might want to add an optic of any type, at ANY time, get the flattop.

If you plan on only shooting irons for awhile, while saving up for your next AR (which could be a flattop), get an A2.

My purchases have gone like this.
A2
A4
A2
A4

The first one, I didn't know any better. The second one was intended to be a 20" for irons, so I kept a detachable carry handle on it to keep my options open in the future. The third one was gonna be an M16A2 clone, but I put a carbine stock on the M16A2 upper instead. The Fourth one was planned, from a month or two after I got my second one, to be a flattop no matter what. I don't know what my next one will be, but my wallet is telling me that's gonna be 9 months+ before I can think about that again. I am leaning towards another M16A2-type clone, though.

WIZZO

Get both! But get the removable first.

Quoted: Get both! But get the removable first.

+1 on that...... thats exactly the oposite of what I did, but now I am making more fixed handle carbines.

The A2 is better if you want to shoot CMP, otherwise go for the removable.

I'd get the flattop first.  It gives you flexibility of configuration.  Later, if you decide to grow your collection, get an A2 (cary handle) version.  

Ya know guys....I can definantly understand the seemingly solid reasoning behind the...

OPTICS ='s A3/ NO OPTICS ='s A2

as being a perfectly logical recommendation....however....

One cool thing I found out about regarding the mounting of a Carry Handle Mounted Optic/ACOG on an A2 is this....according to the posted results of Bartholomew Roberts?.....

For a Carry Handle 20", 16" or 14.5" firing M855 Sight in per your manual at 100m. From a 20" you'll be within MOA of your BDC until 600 where you are 8" high. From a 16", you'll be almost dead on at all ranges. From a 14.5" you'll be within MOA.

and while I already know that at extreme close range it's gonna be a few inches low?...it's kinda cool knowing that an A2 Carry Handle Mounted ACOG is pretty much "spot on" from 100 out to 600meters off a 16"er....(not that I'd engage at those distances) but....it's still cool knowing you can get "spot on" calbration out of your 16" A2 Carry Handle Mounted ACOG at those distances.

And lord knows I'm looking forward to put that data to the test with mine!!!



and two things to note is this....

1. That ACOG base registers so snugly in my carry handle that I actually hafta perfectly lined up square and then...give it a few thumps with the palm of my hand to get it seated and...

2. I've already discovered that I WON'T be mounting it as it is in the pic above...I will be mounting it in the rear hole...to move the scope forward...and also...I will be ordering two "Thumb Screws" from trijicon and drilling the second hole "FORWARD" of the existing one in my carry handle...and then mounted in the forward position via two thumbscrews.

And that ACOG fits the carry handle so snugly?...there's not a doubt in my mind that IT WILL retain and immediately resume zero when "Removed and Replaced".

Another thing I actually kinda prefer is the fact that the higher positioning of the A2 Carry Handle Mount as it dictates a slightly higher head postion....whereby I don't hafta "Scrunch Down Nose To The Charging Handle" which in turn gives me a better heads-up like view of things with both eyes open aiming thanks to the BAC system of the acog....which imho is very cool.

So...I know the stat quo automatic response of "Optics ='s A3/Irons ='s A2" is pretty much standard around these parts but...I must contend that the A2 Carry Handle Mount is NOT..all thorns...and imho is a very viable option for those who might prefer what I've described above...as to me?...it's the best of both worlds...and all out of a acog TA11 equipped lowly 16" A2.

L8R, Bill.

Quoted: Ya know guys....I can definantly understand the seemingly solid reasoning behind the... OPTICS ='s A3/ NO OPTICS ='s A2 as being a perfectly logical recommendation....however.... One cool thing I found out about regarding the mounting of a Carry Handle Mounted Optic/ACOG on an A2 is this....according to the posted results of Bartholomew Roberts?..... For a Carry Handle 20", 16" or 14.5" firing M855 Sight in per your manual at 100m. From a 20" you'll be within MOA of your BDC until 600 where you are 8" high. From a 16", you'll be almost dead on at all ranges. From a 14.5" you'll be within MOA. and while I already know that at extreme close range it's gonna be a few inches low?...it's kinda cool knowing that an A2 Carry Handle Mounted ACOG is pretty much "spot on" from 100 out to 600meters off a 16"er....(not that I'd engage at those distances) but....it's still cool knowing you can get "spot on" calbration out of your 16" A2 Carry Handle Mounted ACOG at those distances. And lord knows I'm looking forward to put that data to the test with mine!!! fz1gear.com/ACOG1.jpg and two things to note is this.... 1. That ACOG base registers so snugly in my carry handle that I actually hafta perfectly lined up square and then...give it a few thumps with the palm of my hand to get it seated and... 2. I've already discovered that I WON'T be mounting it as it is in the pic above...I will be mounting it in the rear hole...to move the scope forward...and also...I will be ordering two "Thumb Screws" from trijicon and drilling the second hole "FORWARD" of the existing one in my carry handle...and then mounted in the forward position via two thumbscrews. And that ACOG fits the carry handle so snugly?...there's not a doubt in my mind that IT WILL retain and immediately resume zero when "Removed and Replaced". Another thing I actually kinda prefer is the fact that the higher positioning of the A2 Carry Handle Mount as it dictates a slightly higher head postion....whereby I don't hafta "Scrunch Down Nose To The Charging Handle" which in turn gives me a better heads-up like view of things with both eyes open aiming thanks to the BAC system of the acog....which imho is very cool. So...I know the stat quo automatic response of "Optics ='s A3/Irons ='s A2" is pretty much standard around these parts but...I must contend that the A2 Carry Handle Mount is NOT..all thorns...and imho is a very viable option for those who might prefer what I've described above...as to me?...it's the best of both worlds...and all out of a acog TA11 equipped lowly 16" A2. L8R, Bill.

8" high at 600, is this correct?

Seydou

Biggest drawback to the detach handle is that there's not enough room to get your hand in it.

Quoted: Biggest drawback to the detach handle is that there's not enough room to get your hand in it.

You mean you actually use it as a handle?




Digital

another plus for the removable carry handle is that the sights are 1/2 moa adjustment where the std at is 1 moa adjustment.

You really, really, really want to get a flattop AR

Quoted: If you get seriously bit by the AR-15 bug, you may regret a fixed carry handle at some point, simply because it limits options down the road for optics you might want to mount on the rifle.  After all, with a removable carry handle, you pretty much have all the features of a fixed handle, PLUS flexibility.

I purposely built my second AR with a fixed handle (A2) upper because I wanted at least one plain-jane, KISS AR. I thought that by using an A2 upper, It would keep me from getting the urge to install optics on it because I do not like the way most optics mount to A2 uppers. Guess what? The plan failed. Turns out I like the gun too much to not install an optic so now I'm probably going to buy an A3 receiver and switch them out.

This being your first AR, you really have no idea how you will decide to set it up in the end. You can bet on the fact that you will change it around a few times until you find the setup that works best for you. Will that in mind, an A3 upper is the way to go as it gives you the most flexibility.

The only way I would build another AR with a Fixed A1 or A2 upper would be for a dedicated trunk\truck gun.

So as you can probably tell by now....it all comes down to personal preference. All of the comments thus far are great for helping you choose what is best for you.

I personally only have one AR at the moment and it happens to be an A2. I did this mainly because I was on a tight budget and I know I'll always want at least one KISS AR. However, I also know that my next will be a flat top. But I have had this plan all along, to buy an A2 first and then a flat top. My A2 is going to stay plain jane while my flat top is going to be accessorized......even though it will still be considered minimal accessorizing by many on this board.

Who knows, I may one day put an ACOG on my A2, I really like the way they look on there, but I don't have any regrets whatsoever.

It all boils down to your own preference and whether you want to spend the extra on a removable handle now or later. I say this because no matter which one you get, you will want another.

If your budget is dictating your purchase, get the cheaper A2 receiver now. Since your new to the AR rifle it will allow you time to get familiar with shooting iron sights.  And it gives you time to save up for a flattop upper and decide on optics.

But when you swap out upper receivers, keep that A2 receiver. Because you will want to go back to the basics at a later date, everyone does, I did it twice! I own one M4gery and two CARs, well actually one CAR, the other is my sons.

Mounting magnified optics on the carry handle elimintates your cheek weld and makes the weapon more succeptable to parallax issues, thus less accurate.

Quoted: Biggest drawback to the detach handle is that there's not enough room to get your hand in it.

What handle are you talking about? The only one I've seen that you can't actually use as a handle is the RRA IIRC.

Quoted: Quoted: Biggest drawback to the detach handle is that there's not enough room to get your hand in it. What handle are you talking about? The only one I've seen that you can't actually use as a handle is the RRA IIRC.

People with small hands might not have a problem with carrying a rifle with a detachable carry handle, but I sure do.

My second knuckle won't fit and I can't get a good grip on it.

WIZZO

Look at all the destruction in LA, MS, and Lower Al.  Your detachable carry handle or detachable optic might become well "detached".

Quoted: Look at all the destruction in LA, MS, and Lower Al.  Your detachable carry handle or detachable might become well "detached".

 Try to be like Mongo and think twice before posting...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Biggest drawback to the detach handle is that there's not enough room to get your hand in it. What handle are you talking about? The only one I've seen that you can't actually use as a handle is the RRA IIRC. People with small hands might not have a problem with carrying a rifle with a detachable carry handle, but I sure do. My second knuckle won't fit and I can't get a good grip on it. WIZZO

It's a rifle not a suitcase.  Either sling up or be at low ready - don't carry the rifle like a purse.

Quoted: Quoted: Ya know guys....I can definantly understand the seemingly solid reasoning behind the... OPTICS ='s A3/ NO OPTICS ='s A2 as being a perfectly logical recommendation....however.... One cool thing I found out about regarding the mounting of a Carry Handle Mounted Optic/ACOG on an A2 is this....according to the posted results of Bartholomew Roberts?..... For a Carry Handle 20", 16" or 14.5" firing M855 Sight in per your manual at 100m. From a 20" you'll be within MOA of your BDC until 600 where you are 8" high. From a 16", you'll be almost dead on at all ranges. From a 14.5" you'll be within MOA. and while I already know that at extreme close range it's gonna be a few inches low?...it's kinda cool knowing that an A2 Carry Handle Mounted ACOG is pretty much "spot on" from 100 out to 600meters off a 16"er....(not that I'd engage at those distances) but....it's still cool knowing you can get "spot on" calbration out of your 16" A2 Carry Handle Mounted ACOG at those distances. And lord knows I'm looking forward to put that data to the test with mine!!! fz1gear.com/ACOG1.jpg and two things to note is this.... 1. That ACOG base registers so snugly in my carry handle that I actually hafta perfectly lined up square and then...give it a few thumps with the palm of my hand to get it seated and... 2. I've already discovered that I WON'T be mounting it as it is in the pic above...I will be mounting it in the rear hole...to move the scope forward...and also...I will be ordering two "Thumb Screws" from trijicon and drilling the second hole "FORWARD" of the existing one in my carry handle...and then mounted in the forward position via two thumbscrews. And that ACOG fits the carry handle so snugly?...there's not a doubt in my mind that IT WILL retain and immediately resume zero when "Removed and Replaced". Another thing I actually kinda prefer is the fact that the higher positioning of the A2 Carry Handle Mount as it dictates a slightly higher head postion....whereby I don't hafta "Scrunch Down Nose To The Charging Handle" which in turn gives me a better heads-up like view of things with both eyes open aiming thanks to the BAC system of the acog....which imho is very cool. So...I know the stat quo automatic response of "Optics ='s A3/Irons ='s A2" is pretty much standard around these parts but...I must contend that the A2 Carry Handle Mount is NOT..all thorns...and imho is a very viable option for those who might prefer what I've described above...as to me?...it's the best of both worlds...and all out of a acog TA11 equipped lowly 16" A2. L8R, Bill. 8" high at 600, is this correct? Seydou

No...notice the "PERIOD" at the end of your "highlighted in blue" sentence?.....8"s high at 600m pertains to the 20"er...not the 16"er...as it is the 16"er which is "dead on at all ranges"...as I highlighted in red.

Sorry if my question was not clear.

If I sight in my 20" at 100m then at 600m it will be 8" high?

Seydou

Quoted: Sorry if my question was not clear. If I sight in my 20" at 100m then at 600m it will be 8" high? Seydou

yes.

Quoted: Quoted: Biggest drawback to the detach handle is that there's not enough room to get your hand in it. You mean you actually use it as a handle? Digital

During the rapid fire stages of CMP matches, most right-handed shooters reach through the carry handle to trip the bolt release since the left arm is in the sling.  The hole in the detachable carry handle is too small to allow this and you have to reach all the way over the top of rifle.  Not a big deal, more like a minor annoyance.

Quoted: hey all, I know this is probably a weird question but does it really matter if the AR has a fixed carry handle or a removeable one?? I only ask because i am looking to buy my first AR and do not have experience with useing either the fixed or removeable handle, and plus alot of the rifles for sale especially from this forum all have a fixed handle. So i don't want to buy an AR with a fixed handle and realize i dont like it and should of gotten the removeable one. And also i ask because the fixed handle AR's seem to be alot cheaper then the ones with the removeable carry handle. So i am curious to hear all of your opinions on the Pro's and con's of both the Removable and Fixed carry handle. thanks to all in advance, Eycee*

This is a simple answer. Removeable. Then you can do what you want the choice is yours.

I don't know if this is a big deal, but dont fixed CH sights have more elevation on teh rear?

Quoted: I don't know if this is a big deal, but dont fixed CH sights have more elevation on teh rear?

Yes, but unless you shoot long range matches with open sights, like in CMP (Boy, I sound like a broken record!), that should not be a problem.

Best of both worlds. - Oh yeah, removable.

an A1 detach.... where'd you find that, and who has 'em!

Just get what you want, if you want iron sights the you know what to do, if you want optics then you know what to do,As or me my first AR is going to be KISS.,but i already have plans for my 2nd.

In my personal opinion I think it doesnt really matter except for the look of the gun so its pretty much preference. Having a flattop or a carryhandle neither will affect your preformance if you know what your doing. Personaly I preffer the A2 I'm old fashioned. A2's can look rather weird with a mounted optic to some but it wont affect performance. I have a A2 m4gery with a compact acog on it and i love it. Its a pretty good all around rifle.

Quoted: Quoted: Sorry if my question was not clear. If I sight in my 20" at 100m then at 600m it will be 8" high? Seydou yes.

How is this possible?

Seydou

Decide whether you want fixed sights or if you want to mount optics later. If your answer is the former, get an A1 upper. If it is the latter, get an A4.

I WILL be getting an A1 upper someday. Simplicity has its place, and I'd like a nice light, short rifle to take hiking. In the mean time, A4 suits my mission requirements best.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Sorry if my question was not clear. If I sight in my 20" at 100m then at 600m it will be 8" high? Seydou yes. How is this possible? Seydou

The high CH mounted scope causes a steeper bullet trajectory when zeroed at 100m...then the bullet continues to rise a tad till it falls back into the scopes line of sight which happens at about 200m....and then the calibrated stadia lines take over to compensate for bullet drop accordingly...however....with the slight increased velocity of a 20"er you wind up about 8"s high at 600m but spot on with a 16"er....in other words...the increased trajectory angle (due to the greater distance between the barrels centerline and the scopes centerline actullay works to benefit the 16"er to near perfect calibration between 100m-600m....get it?...or did I just thorughly confuse ya?

L8R, Bill.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Sorry if my question was not clear. If I sight in my 20" at 100m then at 600m it will be 8" high? Seydou yes. How is this possible? Seydou The high CH mounted scope causes a steeper bullet trajectory when zeroed at 100m...then the bullet continues to rise a tad till it falls back into the scopes line of sight which happens at about 200m....and then the calibrated stadia lines take over to compensate for bullet drop accordingly...however....with the slight increased velocity of a 20"er you wind up about 8"s high at 600m but spot on with a 16"er....in other words...the increased trajectory angle (due to the greater distance between the barrels centerline and the scopes centerline actullay works to benefit the 16"er to near perfect calibration between 100m-600m....get it?...or did I just thorughly confuse ya? L8R, Bill.

Yeah, I am confused.

I have been punching the numbers into JBM  and even accounting for the increased HOB measurement with an optic mounted on the carrying handle, with a 100m zero I do not get a value anywhere near 8" high at 600m.

Do you have a link or a graphic that can show me what you are talking about.

Thanks.

Seydou

Eycee, sorry for hijacking the thread.

I will start a new one.

To get back on topic and FWIW, in retrospect I am very glad I got the flat top, but I also know I will have an A2 eventually.  Damn BRD.

Seydou

My very first AR was a flat top as I followed the advice of a dear friend, a Colt fanatic. I regret paying the extra money for the flat top as I never had the handle off once. I was told to buy the flat top because of the versatility, but I never needed it. By the time I was in the EBR hobby deep enough to want for optics, I had already had several AR's and now I want a bone stock A2 more than anything...go figure. Optics can be mounted readily on A2's and this has been and is still being done in our military. My friend just came back from "over there" and he actually sought an A2 over his issued A4. He had his A2 fitted with the KAC rail an he used a goose neck mount to attach his M68. He prefered this situation as he didn't have to depend on BUIS which he felt were an handicap. I would agree in all but a few instances... You will have a pretty substantial loss of zero reattaching your carry handle, which negates it as an option if your optic goes down. If your optic goes down while mounted on an A2, life won't be that complicated. A mini ACOG attached to the carry handle with a Delta cheek piece on the stock makes for one sweet weapon. If you don't have any intention to have a scope only gun, stick with an A2. Any combat optic you would want will attach just as well to an A2.

Quoted: I have been punching the numbers into JBM  and even accounting for the increased HOB measurement with an optic mounted on the carrying handle, with a 100m zero I do not get a value anywhere near 8" high at 600m. Do you have a link or a graphic that can show me what you are talking about. Thanks. Seydou

I don't think he means the 100M mark will be 8" high at 600M - it can't be.

However the 600m mark may be 8" high at 600m.

Quoted: Quoted: I have been punching the numbers into JBM  and even accounting for the increased HOB measurement with an optic mounted on the carrying handle, with a 100m zero I do not get a value anywhere near 8" high at 600m. Do you have a link or a graphic that can show me what you are talking about. Thanks. Seydou I don't think he means the 100M mark will be 8" high at 600M - it can't be. However the 600m mark may be 8" high at 600m.

I just figured this out.  Now it makes sense.

By the way, are you responsible for the Maryland site?  If so, great job!  Lots of good info and links.

Thanks.

Seydou

Quoted: My very first AR was a flat top as I followed the advice of a dear friend, a Colt fanatic. I regret paying the extra money for the flat top as I never had the handle off once. I was told to buy the flat top because of the versatility, but I never needed it. By the time I was in the EBR hobby deep enough to want for optics, I had already had several AR's and now I want a bone stock A2 more than anything...go figure. Optics can be mounted readily on A2's and this has been and is still being done in our military. My friend just came back from "over there" and he actually sought an A2 over his issued A4. He had his A2 fitted with the KAC rail an he used a goose neck mount to attach his M68. He prefered this situation as he didn't have to depend on BUIS which he felt were an handicap. I would agree in all but a few instances... You will have a pretty substantial loss of zero reattaching your carry handle, which negates it as an option if your optic goes down. If your optic goes down while mounted on an A2, life won't be that complicated. A mini ACOG attached to the carry handle with a Delta cheek piece on the stock makes for one sweet weapon. If you don't have any intention to have a scope only gun, stick with an A2. Any combat optic you would want will attach just as well to an A2.

yeh i'm looking for a rifle that i can use with the sights as well as mount a scope on it if needed......because i want to get good with a scope aswell so i can take it hunting for squirrels, rabbits. deer and etc. and have the upper hand on being just as good with a scope as i am with sights.
But i still don't know if i want the removable handle or not.....I know i can mount a scope on the fixed handle......but i dont know if i will like it on the fixed handle or the flatop better......thats why i'm asking for help and opinions because i am lost at the moment......and at the same time i am searching to purchase my first AR but first i need to realize what i want..........lol


Eycee*