Since the MOA Challenge entry thread is getting clogged up with questions and comments I thought we had better get an official discussion thread.

So feel free to post your nonofficial targets here along with any questions or comments.

Remember this is still a tech thread so no trolling, call outs or GD style behavior. Please play nice or you will be locked out of this forum.

   




Basic rules, targets and divisions.

Keep it simple 5 shot groups, 5 groups per target

1 MOA = 100 Yards = 1.047"
––––––––-50 Yards = 0.5235"
––––––––-25 Yards = 0.26175"


Top 25 for each division

Separate list of 1 MOA shooters and a separate list for .5 MOA shooters.

REMEMBER this, all 5 groups of 5 shots must AVERAGE 1 MOA to make the list and claim the title of being a 1 MOA shooter.

Doing one .99" group and four 1.5" groups does not equal a 1 MOA shooter, it means you got lucky once and you are a 1.398 MOA shooter (assuming a 100 yard target)

This is a challenge but don't be afraid to try it out and post, every possible rifle style has been listed with a category and a distance. It's all in good fun and to be honest about your abilities.

With that in mind here are the rules.

1. ONE sheet of paper, 8.5”x11” preferred and it MUST HAVE ALL 5 targets.

Meaning 1 sheet of paper with FIVE targets. NO INDIVIDUAL TARGETS. THEY WILL NOT COUNT.


2. On that 1 sheet of paper with 5 targets you shoot 5 groups of 5 shots each. (In one day)


3. Each group is measured OUTSIDE GREASE RING TO OUTSIDE GREASE RING with calipers (preferred) or tape rule in inches. Then subtract the diameter of one bullet IE if your shooting a .223 and your 5 shot group measures 1.13" you will subtract 0.224" to get a group of 0.906". If you are shooting a .22lr you will subtract 0.223", for a 308 you will subtract 0.308" (Remember- the more precise your measurement the better)

Some common measurements:
.172" - .17 HMR
.223" - .22 Short, Long, Long Rifle
.224" - .223 Remington, .22 WMR, .22 Hornet
.243" - .243 Winchester
.284" - 7mm-08 Remington, 7mm Mag
.308" - .308 Winchester, .30-06, .300 Mag
.311" - 7.62x39 Soviet, .303 British
.338" - .338 Mag


4. NO MECHANICAL REST/SLED, NO VICE OR SIMILAR DEVICE THAT SUPPORTS THE ENITRE RIFLE, NO SHOOTING JACKETS, NO STRAPPING THE GUN INTO ANYTHING, NO LARGE REAR SANDBAG ** OR REST. SHOOTER MUST HAVE POSITIVE CONTROL OF RIFLE.

THE POINT IS TO SEE HOW GOOD YOU SHOOT, NOT HOW WELL YOU CAN MOUNT IT IN A MACHINE.


5. OK TO USE sandbag, rest, ruck, bipod, rock with a hat, sling etc. on forearm of the rifle.

**Will be OK to use a small rear sandbag (ie: sand sock or squeeze bag) or bean bag that must require constant hand pressure to maintain hold on target.

IE. Can NOT sandbag gun in place. Shooter must maintain positive control of rifle. No formed or V-shaped rests/bags

Some approved bags


Triad Red Tac

Triad Wedgie

CrossTac Squeeze bag

Accuracy First shooting bag






6. Shooting position is up to you, sitting, standing, prone.


7. Posting:

1st picture of target set at the range you are shooting. If you are shooting more than one rifle at the same range using the same pic is okay.

2nd picture with 5 groups of 5 shots each, next to them write down group size.

3rd picture with calipers (or tape rule) left in place over BEST group.

4th picture of rifle and shooting setup (ie. Sandbag, prone and so on). Post all4 pics and also type in the post your 5 group sizes and what the average is. IE. .99”, 1.5”, 1.5”, 1.5”, 1.5” add them up, equals 6.99” and divide by five. So 6.99/5 = 1.398”

You can use the MOA formula, either way I will check the math and post the MOA on the result list.

For those of you who would like to use ontarget,   http://ontargetshooting.com/

Also type up specs of your rifle and ammo IE. Rem 700 with 168gr Federal SMK or Colt AR15 18" with Wolf 55gr FMJ or AK with 125gr Hand Loads PLEASE INCLUDE AMMO USED

*** Please include result at the end of your post in the final format:

Division you wish to be listed under with range, User_Name: Rifle Manufacturer and caliber - notable customizations- Scope- Ammo. Groups: 1"/2"/3"/4"/5" = avg. 3" = .287 MOA


If you do not post in this format or leave anything out your post will not be included.


8. In each division you can only have your name up once per gun. Meaning that if you shoot the Iron Sight 22lr with your 10/22 and average a 1.65” group and lets say place 4th. If you use that same gun and do worse, even if you would place better then someone else it will not count for your group. Best group counts.

Now if you then shoot Iron Sight 22lr with your M&P 15-22 and shoot better, say 1.25” average groups and place 2nd. Both that score and the 10/22 score will remain. Different guns will be allowed for different group rankings within a division. Best group counts.

This also goes for the 1 MOA list. Meaning only your best MOA will be ranked on the 1 MOA list BUT if you also shoot 1 MOA or less with a different rifle, that will also count and your name will be added to the list for each different rifle you shoot 1 MOA or less with.

9. Remember, this is NOT a Bullseye challenge, it's a Groups challenge.

10. Any and all ammo is fine I don't care if you use Factory loads or your super secret Hand Load that Moses gave you.

11. Ties in average will go to the shooter with the smallest group.

Service Division (AR/AK/FAL/M1A1 etc style weapons)
Iron sights at 50 yards

Non-Magnified Optic at 50 yards

SPR Division (AR/AK/FAL/M1A etc WITH magnified optics) **See rule 5
100 yards

Bolt Division with magnified optics (any precision gun) ** See rule 5
100 yards

And for cheapness a 22lr Division

Any 22lr rifle with iron sights at 25 yards

Any 22lr rifle with non-magnified optic at 50 yards

Any 22lr rifle with magnified optic at 50 yards

Any 22lr rifle with magnified optic at 100 yards

Misc Small Bore Division
Any .17HMR/.17HM2/.17Fireball/.22WMR/.22 Hornet etc etc etc with any sighting system (Irons/nonmagnified/magnified) at 100 yards **See Rule 5


Unlimited Division
Catch-all class for anyone wishing to use a lead-sled, large sandbag set-up, or other assisting device prohibited from the other classes. 50yd minimum for non magnified optic rifles and 100 yd minimum for magnified optics of all calibers. Does not qualify you for MOA shooter list, but will be recognized as an MOA rifle owner. Further more if you have shot the same setup and are listed in a class you will not be eligible for unlimited. Let's not turn this into a full blown bench rest shoot.




Click to download target
Downloadable target



Small BFL Target

Modified 1MOA All Day Target MUAD hosted

MOA BFL Grid target  LaRue hosted.



MOA formula

How many MOA equal 2 inches at 200 yards?
(inches / yards) x 100 = MOA
(2 inches / 200 yards) x 100 = 1 MOA






This is for those that want to put up an honest effort and show what they can do!


If you post a placeholder for a future attempt, be sure and notify me if you are not updated!

If entries start coming in and you post your results back on an earlier page, I might miss it if you don't point it out.

.....I don't get all the angst about a non-reward (other than bragging rights), supposedly friendly contest on an online bulletin board....This bag, that bag, the format wasn't followed, special treatment.....Damn.....

...Hey, I've got an entry I posted in October 2016 that should be listed as 33rd or so that never got added to the list but I'm not bitching...

.....Honestly, I'm proud of that .752" group but 33rd?.....Nothing I brag about, definitely....

...As for using the MOA Challenge to gauge what to use or buy, at the first GHTF Challenge I shot one of the uppers that MikeP was listed with (18" LaRue)....It was lights out better than my set up at the time, but I couldn't match Mike's submission....That doesn't mean he lied, it just means on that day, at that time, under those conditions he outshot me when he did it on the other side of the country at a different time...nothing more.....

..Conversely, others have shot my 20" Stealth and not averaged .75" with it....but they were there when I did, so they can attest to the fact that I did...but two more attempts that same day, with the same set up and same handloads and I couldn't improve on that...and wasn't close....

..I've shot better single groups (and I'm sure many have) but I'm still trying to do better each time I hit the range, or work up loads, or build a rifle....Better than *my* best, not everyone else's.....

I found it.  I must have thought it was a double post with your wife's entry.

....The bolt guns ate every gasser's lunch at last year's GHTF Challenge.....I can say my lil' old 20" Stealth still held the top gasser spot but was 5th (or 6th?) overall behind the bolts....

...Now, if some enterprising manufacturer that knows something about precision were to open the floodgates on a bolt gun *cough* Seite *cough* I'd love to give those bolt guys a run for the money......
..As it is, for now I'll just have to give it a try with my home built Howa ....It's showing promise (sub 1/2" groups) with factory loads and the Tranquilo but tuned handloads should make it shine......

This is a good point, there are some days when things are just right and on and others when I pack up after an hour as I'm wasting my time.

The only issue I’ve had, is that I’ve seen lots of entries be DQ’d for not meeting requirements, yet there are several entries that CLEARLY don’t meet the requirements, i.e, entries 1 and 2 in the SPR division.

If it’s for fun, and there’s nothing behind it, why couldn’t those be removed?

What about the guys that were DQ’d for a bag being too large, but seeing in this very thread that bags that were also too large have been used, and the “caretaker” acknowledged that they were too large, but still said the entries are ok? Think that sends a positive message?

I think we just need to get back to shooting...

Nope, about what’s right.

The feels, is your feelings and thinking your barrels really deserve to be in the top 3 spots, based on current entries.

I’m not necessarily in love with every equipment or entry decision made in the thread. However I’m also doing all the work Akethan has managing the thread. He has to have tons and tons of hours managing that thread, keeping up with all the scores, etc.. all for what? So some are f us can have a good time shooting the challenge and sharing our results. The hole point of the challenge was to do away with all the bs claims of accuracy that run rampant on the forum. Unfortunately conflicts from other parts of the forum have found their way into this thread and tend to taint when anyone calls others scores into question, especially if they do really well with a LaRue rifle.

Akethan has been a real asset to the precision rifle community on this board, simply by managing the challenge he has helped to promote members trying to become more accurate shooters. The challenge motivated my wife to become a much better shooter and I’m sure it has done the same for countless others. It’s also helped to at least cut down on the bs accuracy claims that used to be so common. I don’t believe he has at any point been dishonorable in his conduct and any implication that he has better be backed up with some proof. I would say, when it comes to the bennefit of the doubt, he has more than earned it in spades. Unless you can prove some sort of collusion or intentional misrepresentation of the facts, you are way out of line.

From the beginning of the challenge it was made clear that he would be the sole,judge as to equipment and entries. If you don’t like that start your own challenge.

By the way, I shot the challenge with both a LaRue and a Black Hole Weaponry barrel, I used Giessle triggers in both and Bobro mounts. I’m not a fan boy by any means, although I like what I like. I’m not friends with Athethan or Mark or any of the other posters that seem to draw so much ire. I am really sick of this CW vs LaRue crap getting drug into the contest and all over the board for that matter. Maybe you’re not one of thoose guys, but you sure come across as one.

I have no clue what CW is, so I don’t think I’m one of those guys.

As far as intentional misrepresentation, I can just go by what has been posted. Mike_P said that AKETHAN asked him to post a template of what a full submission should look like, but he had to use a separate target to get the caliper pic (pg 1 of the challenge). Thus, his entry wasn’t a complete entry. Dpmmn’s entry didn’t have the range pic, and was met with a lot of skepticism, by more ppl than me, and well before I knew about the submission.

Those were the entries I had questions about. Seems easy to resolve, right? They didn’t meet requirements. I do have some doubts regarding entry 3, but that’s just due to the ammo.

There’s also been the issue of which entries would be DQ’d due to bags, but it’s easy to see the bias there. Don’t take my word, you can look and see it. When bags the size of a buttstock are used, look into the details of the rifle. Be your own judge.

..... That's nice and all but that rear bag looks like it might not conform to the previously agreed upon size limitations....

... I'm afraid you'll just have to send that rifle to me so I can verify it's capabilities....

.....Two points: many, many years ago I managed/ran an online bulletin board that wasn't 1/100th the size of Arfcom.....it was only about the size of just the Precision Rifle section here with maybe 200-300 posters total......I did it in my spare time, I had rules, most followed those rules and some refused to regularly.....I never caught everything, but what I could and what was the most outrageous......
...... The point is, I can sympathize with the thankless work Akethan has put in and that not everything is caught or equally outrageous....

....Second point is: That one shooter's bag is 1.35" larger than the one listed as acceptable or someone didn't supply a photo of the range in their submission doesn't affect my life, liberty or happiness....and doesn't change me trying to improve my skills one iota...
...The fact is, there has to be a certain amount of trust involved since most submissions aren't from get togethers like the GHTF Challenge with witnesses.....Anyone could use any support they choose but submit photos of an approved rear bag.....or shoot at 75 yards but move the target to 100 for a photo op...

....In the end, no one but the shooter would know, hence my complete lack of concern for 'why is this bag approved but this one isn't and it's only one inch larger in this configuration' or a submission that may or may not follow all the form to the letter unless it's mine..... I'm not competing with anyone but myself and my sense of accomplishment or self worth isn't dependent on where my submission is on 'THE LIST'....

....I agree with D3... Let's get back to shooting......

....and the gauntlet has been firmly thrown.....

....I've got to quantify the difference next time I make it to the range...With and without a rear bag....just for my own curiosity....

Some of you may or may not know that there are exceptions to the written rules. Many of you with multiple entries already know.

If you have shot with the same rifle before you do not have to provide pics of the rifle again.

If you have shot at the same range before you do not have to post range pics again.

If you have shot with the same rifle and range before you can just post a target pic.

Entries using on target do not have to provide a caliper or ruler pic.

If you are shooting at a private range and the owner/corporation does not want pics of their range/test facility posted you can email me them to me.

If you specifically ask me what bags are approved I will point you to the ones on page one. That does not mean all other bags are not allowed.  If I see one in a pic that I think is too big or holds the rifle for you I will not allow the entry.

I will edit your entry so it fits on one line.

That said all entries that are on the books are staying.   You can shake your fists, stamp your feet and hold your breath until you turn blue.   They are staying.

If anyone wants their entries removed just let me know.

Shooting is fun

I don't disagree with anything aside from this snippit.  Why would you not include a ruler or caliper just because you are using on target.  On target works off of a reference point to zero out the program.  If you have a ruler in the picture or calipers anyone could easily confirm the results.  I haven't been following the challenge long but when I submitted there was an error with mine and I have seen several others submit with incorrectly used software.

Should have said on target with known outside reference. Grid etc.

It'd suggest that the entire thread be locked on Dec. 31. Start over Jan. 1 with a new thread laying out the rules, perhaps with minor adjustments (bag, no bag, I don't care). If you want first place get out on there New Years Day and see how long it lasts. Past years winners get bragging rights and need to repeat their performance if they want to stay on top of the new year's rankings.

Shoot more, bitch less. Don't go looking to see how poorly my one attempt at this went.

@LaRue_Tactical send me one of them there Valkyrie barrels to throw on my rig and lets get one in the top 5

I have a home made bag that is 8" x 5" x 2" the same size as an approved list Accuracy First bag,  Would that be acceptable?

Depends on his mood when he looks at it lol.

Yep

You're pretty funny.

The one I used was 8"x6"x2.5".  Kosher?

Sorry IGB

*** After much gnashing of the teeth we'll set the limit of size at the largest bag on the list which is 96 C.I. Try to stay at or below this.

But remember that there must be constant hand pressure to maintain hold on target.

IE. Can NOT sandbag gun in place. Shooter must maintain positive control of rifle. No formed or V-shaped rests/bags.

*If your entry has been added to list already it will remain.

Someday I may buy a squeeze bag.  In the meantime, I'll stick with the sock and beans.  Nobody ever wants to borrow it, or run off with it  But now I know... 96 CI is the limit!  Thanks.

There will be more entries coming in 2 months time

young man do you still own the rifle you bought from mike_p?

@gahunter95

@winddummy82

Yes. I still have it.  I am thinking about selling it, but I haven’t done anything yet.

Nothing wrong with sock and beans.  It's what I use.  And if you get in a bind, you can eat your squeeze bag.

This is the best i've ever used...Goes with me every time. But its too big for MOA. weight is in ounces and it just works.

https://www.triadtactical.com/Str8Laced-Gun-Gear-Rear-Bag.html

@GAhunter95

...When/if you do, let me know....I don't think it's shot out yet and it just *might* give my 20" a run for the money...

...Seriously, that is one dead-nuts ringer with factory loads...I'd love to see what it would do with worked up handloads......

I’ve got 25rds of FGMM and a Razor AMG to throw on it if @GAhunter95 will let me run it!

@GAhunter95

what is the best 5 round MOA group you got out of it?

I'm not a precision shooter.  I am the host and range owner for the GA HTF MOA shoot.  A week before the first MOA shoot,  I realized that I may not have an AR15 rifle that would shoot sub MOA.  As the host, I felt I better have the hardware on hand to do the challenge successfully. LaRue Tactical had graciously offered to sponsor the shoot, and I probably should have asked for a loaner upper to be used during the shoot, but by the time I figured this all out, it was one week until show time.  There was no guarantee I could get a barrel or an upper in a week.   So off to the EE I went, and it was the only upper FS at that time that was proven to be sub MOA.  I wasn't looking for the #1 upper from the challenge, but there it was, and I was running out of time.

At MOA #1 there were 10 or 12 people who were unable to shoot sub MOA with their own gear but were able to with this upper using different types of ammo.

I have shot the upper at each MOA shoot and have been sub MOA.  I've shot for groups 4 times in 3 years.  My 5th time will be in 2 months.  It's nice having an upper that makes MOA stupid simple though

IIRC Mike-P also did some shooting for the Army.

...I can testify to the accuracy of that upper.....The first year my set up was subpar so I gave this one a go.....Using factory FGMM 77 gr. (I think it was) I managed to put up two groups that were under .5" MOA (around .4" IIRC)....Then I got fancy and decided I would hold under to account for the zero being slightly off (a sad attempt at showing not only tight groups but bulls as well)....This worked well for three rounds until I stopped to reset....and forgot to hold off for the fourth shot.....and the fifth.....
....In frustration at sabotaging myself, I ripped through the rest....and still shot sub MOA as a total....

....This upper is a ringer, no doubt....and easy to put up ragged holes even with factory ammo.....With tuned handloads it would be a dream.....

Is this the upper? The Hornady 75’s seem to be hit or miss in some barrels.

Draconis: Larue stealth upper 18", 1/8 twist, RRA lower Nightforce 5.5-22x NP-R1. Hornady Match HPBT 75 gr.,0.807", 1.069", 1.097", 0.727", 1.037" = 4.737" / 5 = 0.9474" = .905 MOA

What upper are we talking about?  Can someone refresh me please?

1.Mike_P: Larue Stealth upper .223 Rem 18"/13.2" - Predatobr Black gold trigger + Atlas Bipod + A2 stock - 12x SWFA SS in LT104, 77gr FGMM, Groups 0.597 / 0.345 / 0.249 / 0.248 / 0.265 = avg .340 MOA

The upper that mike_p used to post the #1 SPR entry with.

Thanks!

Super Match = all over for me.  
match = those were the best for me.

Idk what the difference is in those loads.

I need to look at my match stash and see what is left.  I don’t think there is any fgmm left.

...Yep, that's the upper.....I didn't have any FGMM with me so GAHunter was kind enough to have a couple of boxes of ammo for people to buy....The first aborted run was with the 77s (IIRC) and even with my idiocy still came in under 1.047"...I tried again with the 75s and that was the result....
...Since both were with the same rifle, I didn't post the first run...but I think I've still got the target somewhere...If I do, and can find it, I'll post it here just for shitsngiggles....

SuperMatch basically has a slower powder for greater velocity. Usually not good in gas guns unless you have an adj. gas block, CWS, etc. Dunno if they're even good in bolt guns.

I'd stick to Match.

all soldiers shoot whilst in the Army

I was curious what that reference meant.  Akin to saying someone had done some reading or math in school.