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Posted: 10/4/2007 3:37:48 AM EDT
[#1]
The military uses something similar called brevity codes or chattermarks. Not a bad idea, but getting family to use them without having to whip out the cheat sheet might be hard.
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Posted: 10/4/2007 4:33:27 AM EDT
[#2]
FCC §97.113 Prohibited transmissions.
(a) No amateur station shall transmit: (4) Music using a phone emission except as specifically provided elsewhere in this section; communications intended to facilitate a criminal act; messages in codes or ciphers intended to obscure the meaning thereof, except as otherwise provided herein; obscene or indecent words or language; or false or deceptive messages, signals or identification; |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 6:30:50 AM EDT
[#3]
What you are referring to is a "book code" and it is and has been the hardest code to crack for decades. That is unless you use something common like the Bible. Usually its a number sequence so it will purposely be confused with a number code. Page, paragraph, word, and if you can't find the word a fourth number designating a letter.
Believe it or not, if you have been reading this forum for a while, you have been learning a code. BOB, BOV, BOL, BOV, GHB, most people would have no idea what this means. Its basically using keywords for certain things. Inside information is another technique. For example, meet you at the Mustang can mean home since that where the Mustang is but to most people this is a movable object so they don't know. This is purposely being vague based on the answer being only information the other party would know. Using a combination of all these three techniques can be quite effective. Every time someone posts this question in context of SHTF, someone inevitably has to point out its illegal. This always reminds me of the movie "Die Hard" when he's trying to report a crime and is threatened with illegal use of a radio frequency. Paraphrasing to leave out the colorful language, "Fine, come on down here and get me." It would be nice if we could count on the FCC showing up at your door while the zombies are kicking it down but we can't. The FCC has very few agents and rarely catch anyone for not having a license let alone proper radio edicate. They certainly aren't chasing down a bunch of 10 year old children playing Army with GMRS radios that only broadcast a mile or so. Yes proper radio edicate is the right thing to do if there no emergency but I think I would rather face a fine then see my family dead in time of crisis. Heck, most of us would welcome government support in time of crisis but I wouldn't count on it. I don't recall any stories of the FCC scouring NOLA after Katrina hit. Tj |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 7:01:32 AM EDT
[#4]
I don't see any problem with this.
Well excuse the fuck out of me (I like colorful language).
You do make good point. Since there aren't a lot of agents actually out looking for people breaking the law you might as well. They'll never catch you anyway so fuck 'em. Here's the deal, "anything goes" only applies if there is a threat to life. If you're bleeding to death do whatever the hell it takes to get help. Just because the shtf doesn't give you carte blanch to break the law. Of course looters after Katrina might say otherwise I suppose. Besides, if your family is facing death, are you really going to take the time to tell someone over the radio: 12 45 32 24 65 54 15 75 21 64 12 54 81 24 13 and wait for the translation as opposed to just saying "I need help right now!" Not to mention putting the code together to send in the first place. If your life is on the line, I doubt you'll have time to do this. |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 7:13:17 AM EDT
[#5]
So what are you advocating bud?
If badguys are listening over a radio frequency then a radio is useless except to call the government for help? That there is no need to ever tell anyone where you are on a radio without the whole world knowing? Doing so is the same as looting? Give the guy a break already, he has 8 posts and worded his question correctly. Tj |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 7:14:28 AM EDT
[#6]
My fiance, my folks and myself all have codes for different things. And yes, some of them would be broadcast over the radio in a time of crisis, if we thought it needed to be done.
 We have codes we use in emails (usually the key to decrpyt a message), in text messages on the cell phones, and phrases to use if we're actually talking and need to relay something important. Old example:
What is really said:
Rusty was my dog, he died 3 years ago. So there was no chance of mixed signals. We've since modified it to provide more info. Paranoid? probably. Do I care? Not so much. |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 8:19:45 AM EDT
[#7]
On Granada, the students had the same printing of pocket dictionaries.
Fast to use: Page – Column – Word It is on my list to buy 4-5 of these. |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 9:12:31 AM EDT
[#8]
Good idea. The FCC regs thing is kind of a red herring. In a SHTF scenario there probably won't be an FCC. Unless we are talking about some kind of revolt against an overly oppressive government. In that case the violation of FCC regs would hardly be a worry. |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 9:26:07 AM EDT
[#9]
Not choosing to indiscriminately break the law. Apparently you have no problem with that. Cowboy gave a perfect example of covertly obfuscating the message w/o using a "code". It's a regular conversation as far as anyone else is concerned.
Where the hell did I say that?
Great job putting words in my mouth again. I never said that either. The law says not to use codes. That's where the method you were describing would fall. To do so would be illegal...just like looting. Were the people looting because they desperately needed the items as a life or death situation? Maybe if they were going to die without a big screen TV and case of Heineken. Just because a major storm destroys your home doesn't mean you go to Wal-Mart and start stocking up on DVDs. Likewise, it doesn't mean you throw away the FCC rules. Again, if your life is in danger, do whatever it takes. Otherwise you're just another law breaker.
I believe I was addressing you, not the OP. And I'm somewhat surprised that your position is to ignore the law. Who needs them anyway? Anarchy rules! So to the OP on behalf TJ, use all the codes you want. The law will be too overwhelmed to worry about you. You have a radio therefore you are above the law. |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 9:29:08 AM EDT
[#10]
I like fish.
That's a pretty broad statement isn't it? Did the FCC dissolve during Katrina? I'm sure many would say that constitutes the shtf. |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 11:26:06 AM EDT
[#11]
Wow, I didn't know it was illegal. However, I do believe the Feds will have more to do if the SHTF than to concern themselves with a coded message regarding how much more firewood or water we need.
I'll go ahead and make a moral call that breaking the law by using a coded message in a time of emergency is a little different than stealing water, firewood or sciphoning gas. The reason I say this is your statement "ignore the law, who needs them anyway, anarchy rules!" I believe true anarchy would be crimes such as theft of resources, violence during those acts etc.. Not codeing messages to make it harder for REAL criminals to commit anarchy against me while trying to secure resources legally for my family, myself and others. |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 11:55:12 AM EDT
[#12]
You're probably right. Remember, laws keep the honest people honest. As Cowboy demonstrated, it's possible to obfuscate the message w/o using blatant codes. What if the bad guys hear you talking in code and decide you must be important. Now you become a high-value target and they work to triangulate your position. Would it raise any concern if you said "What did the vet say about Rusty?"? Probably not. "Absence or non-recognition of authority in any given sphere." The cops can't catch me so I'll break the law. That's part of anarchy. As you said, it's your choice to make. Apparently I'm in the minority about what obeying the law means. But for final clarification, I will use any means necessary to communicate if my or my family's life is in danger. I guess my tinfoil isn't tight enough that I don't see the need to do that to tell somebody I need firewood. ymmv. |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 12:12:14 PM EDT
[#13]
I guess I'm no Hank Hill when it comes to obeying the law to the letter. I see this code thing similar to pulling up to a traffic light in the middle of no-where at 4 in the morning, theres not another soul in sight, everything is safe and you go through.
As far a triangulating my position, well, I guess I'll just have to take my chances. I don't think the type of individual that knows how to do that is the looting thug type anyways, I may be wrong. |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 12:20:15 PM EDT
[#14]
No, they're the type that's going to ignore a flood and people dieing to come get you cause you dared use a number on a radio they didn't understand what it meant.  The man went off the deep end of the pool without a life jacket. 
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Posted: 10/4/2007 12:23:43 PM EDT
[#15]
Um, ok.
No, I wait. I'm sorry I responded. I never should have pointed out that it's illegal. Do what you must. If you're not already a licensed radio operator I wouldn't bother wasting time studying for the tests just because the FCC says you need one. They won't be around at 4am anyway. |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 12:29:32 PM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 10/4/2007 1:07:44 PM EDT
[#17]
CB radio, GMRS, and FRS, are NOT amature stations. While they are governed by the FCC "Uncle Charlie" and while GMRS does require a license fee to be paid, they are not regulated as closely as true amature radio, or HAM operators are, if at all.
Take it for what it's worth, but I hardly think that the FCC is going to bust down your door for using some sort of code or cipher. The second paragraph is just my opinion. I am not advocating breaking the law. |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 1:42:27 PM EDT
[#18]
One time codes are not real practical for live action radio messages.
However, using family/friend known descriptive phrases will leave those out of the loop in the dark. Things like "meet at 6 pt ridge" or "stay away from porcupine valley" wont mean anything to an outsider, but your friends will know what you mean. You wife telling you that "Eddie is coming over for dinner" would spell big trouble because Eddie has been dead for 3 years. My wife works in the Deans office at a fairly large campus.... she called a friend of mine who works for S&S and told him she needed to cancel their meeting cause she had a meeting that was running over. He was smart enough to know that since they didnt have a meeting schedualed that something was up so he showed up at her office. Maybe some preset words are good, but dont get carried away. And while the air wave patrol may not break down your door for a few minor violations you are still not using radios in the proper way. In true combat type emergencies you would do whatever you have to do to stay alive. Better to be tried by 12 then carried by 6! |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 2:35:53 PM EDT
[#19]
Jax, There is law, common sense and right versus wrong. Sometimes law incorporates all three and these are good laws. Often times they don't and these are bad laws. Saying one method of code (the obfuscated language) is fine and one method (the numbers) is not, is illogical. Saying that speaking on a device in code is the same as looting is technically correct as it breaks a law, however it is so lacking in common sense that I am embarrassed for you to have said it. The question is valid and some of the response have been enlightening, should a hypothetical situation require using code on a radio. Those rabid followers of the law regardless of common sense or right versus wrong are annoying at best and can contribute to destroying nations at worst. "I was just following orders" (presumably lawful ones regardless of their morality). We all must endeavour to keep right and wrong in focus rather than the law. |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 2:46:49 PM EDT
[#20]
Tagar,
Maybe you missed this part:
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Posted: 10/4/2007 2:59:06 PM EDT
[#21]
Nah Mate, I didn't miss it. I still stand by what I said. People constantly pointing out laws as sacred without regard for common sense annoys me.
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Posted: 10/4/2007 3:13:41 PM EDT
[#22]
AMEN!! |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 4:10:13 PM EDT
[#23]
Watermaker, This is probably the the thing you are looking for regarding most emergency communication. The book code would be good for sending detailed messages at leisure but are unsuited to real time emergencies. To make your own, list 10 or so emergency situations and then assign words that you want to represent the phrase. These will be personal to your own situation and would be better kept confidential. As MCR suggests you will probably need to attach a cheat sheet to the radio. For reference here is a link to the FM. |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 4:26:32 PM EDT
[#24]
If you say so. But since you don't seem to give a crap about what I'm saying I won't bother defending it.
Oh how swell of you. SNIP I don't need you to be embarrassed for me. That's strike one. Cross the line again and it will be a formal warning. Tj
Where did I say it wasn't? He asked a question and I gave an honest answer. It's against the law. The fact the the majority seem inclined to disregard that fact is another matter. I've already said the situation will dictate whether that law is firm or flexible but like it or not it's a law. I didn't make it up or state my opinion. I simply stated the truth. I'm sorry if you have a difficult time with that.
You really haven't read a damned thing I wrote have you? You're telling me I have no common sense and I'm wrapped up in legalism yet I've said several times (as you've admitted) that I will do whatever I have to if life is on the line. Getting firewood, in my humble (but apparently wrong) opinion, doesn't constitute an immediate threat to life or limb and therefore I will choose to obey the law. So if I've annoyed you, big fucking deal. |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 4:44:49 PM EDT
[#25]
I always thought that laws provided a standard, violation of which was to carry a sure and swift punishment. Nothing except free will keeps people honest. That same free will allows people to violate any law they wish. The laws establish the line not to be crossed without consequences. |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 4:56:44 PM EDT
[#26]
Relax a little and take a deep breath.
All you have done is cross the line into posting in absolutes. Most of us have done it on the net. Often we end up defending a position that is not defenseable. There is simply more to law than the word of law. That's the intent of the law. Speeding is against the law but you certainly don't see tickets being written to people rushing an injured person to the hospital. Although firing a weapon in a city is against the law, those who have to use their weapons in defense of their life are not ticketed for doing so. If you do research, actually a lot since there technically aren't any cases of people being fined for using codes, I think you will find the law has its roots in a solid cause and not just because. Criminal use and espionage are two that jump to mind. It certainly wasn't to be able to fine someone because they used their radios for personal use that doesn't fit into either category. Anytime we back ourselves into the corner of absolutes, we can't really win. I find it best to simply modify my position to within reason and let it go. Tj |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 4:58:03 PM EDT
[#27]
Someone told me once, "Locks (substitute laws maybe?) are not for people that are bad imoral and dishonest and not for those who are good, moral and honest. They are for those who waver inbetween. If a locked car has a wallet sitting in plain view on the seat, a criminal will smash the window and grab it. If the car were unlocked an honest person would not take the wallet, maybe even open the car hide the wallet and lock the door. The lock is for the person who is neither evil and bad nor honest and pure as the driven snow, the one that will be tempted by the unlocked door." |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 5:04:35 PM EDT
[#28]
edit |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 5:25:52 PM EDT
[#29]
Kinda like the movie "The Firm" I believe. Justice system couldn't touch the law firm so they nailed them for every count of padding legal bills that went through the U.S. mail. Every one instantly became a federal crime once it was mailed. Had nothing to do with why they wanted to bust them. |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 5:30:27 PM EDT
[#30]
Just for the record: I personally know of two instances where genuine fed 'radio police' with a warrant came to private homes and seized radio equipment for technical violations. Neither had ANYTHING to do with word codes or SHTF, but suggest it is not ABSOLUTELY impossible!
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Posted: 10/4/2007 5:58:26 PM EDT
[#31]
the chair is against the wall
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Posted: 10/4/2007 6:28:34 PM EDT
[#32]
"Bob, this is Rob, you there" (call signs or whatever required)
"Yea, I'm here" (call signs or whatever required) "Here's the data from report X you needed: 132 17 6 67 9 21 etc." "Thanks Rob, over and out" (call sign or whatever required) "I'm out too" (call signs or whatever required) --- Now, is that "legal?" Is it any less "legal" than the "Rusty code stuff?" Of course, by the book, it's legal only if the transmission (text AND numbers) has no hidden meaning. But who would ever be able to know that? I tend to lean to common sense on this issue. If I'm not committing a crime (other than obscuring the message) then I'm not going to worry much. And I really don't care what anyone else thinks about it. That being said I've never done it. And I do have amateur radio license. I've heard plenty of HAM chat that was pretty obscure. Once, two professors were trying to locate a downed weather balloon and they were passing map coords and gps stuff and telemetry data that could easily have been hidden messages. I'm sure no one tracked them down and demanded any proof. |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 7:08:52 PM EDT
[#33]
interesting point about this thread:
If we were talking about how to make a semi auto into a full auto, this thread would have been immediately locked, and warnings issued to offendies. The information about how to do so is not illegal, but it's the site's policy to not discuss doing illegal actions. (I have no problem with this discussion, I fully believe in freedom of speech, and information on good codes to use on radio, or how to make full auto is fine by me!  )
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Posted: 10/4/2007 7:33:56 PM EDT
[#34]
Oh geez, now saying code red on a walkie talkie is the same as teaching someone to build an illegal Class III weapon.  And this from the guy who gave us: and oh, I could name soooooo many laws that are unconstitutional..... By your standards, 4X4 BOVs crossing the medium would be locked, cross country BOBs (trespassing) would be locked, the site wouldn't have tactics forums or discussions, ...... I could go on and on. All based on a fear of the FCC and nobody can give just one example of where some individual got in any trouble even a harsh word for using a code. Attaching that ground wire to the old Tin Foil hat actually works. Tj |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 7:36:59 PM EDT
[#35]
Some folks read way too much into things taking the smallest detail and blowing it out of proportion. Gosh. All those nasty 10 codes in common usage must obviously be illegal. Especially if they are not the "standard" version and have been customized in any way so that everyone listening can't tell if the sender is stopping at 7-11 (another nefarious code) for donuts and coffee, or returning to base with passengers. What I've always wanted to know is what's this "six" stuff? If I check my six am I supposed to wait until 0600 then ask six for permission ? Nor sure if Household Six would appreciate that. |
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Posted: 10/4/2007 8:26:07 PM EDT
[#36]
TJ, such a great and profound fount of wisdom. Everyone is right here except me. I'm just an illogical law book thumper.
 I kid, I kid. Codes are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Hell, I like codes so much I'm going to start writing everything in code. John is a big douchebag. The turtle is slower than the hare. The fork ran away with the spoon. Axshooterjay sihay eavinglay histay hreadtay. |
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Posted: 10/5/2007 12:12:24 AM EDT
[#37]
Why does everyone assume that when we discuss radio comms that we mean
ham radio? Codes and encryption are perfectly legal for licensed businesses, and individuals can get a business license. Codes are really important, especially when the people monitoring are the same people trying to steal your preps, etc. |
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Posted: 10/5/2007 3:42:35 AM EDT
[#38]
Man, this went down the flusher pretty quick! The poor OP will never ask another question again! And his question wasnt all that bad......
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Posted: 10/5/2007 3:48:34 AM EDT
[#39]
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Posted: 10/5/2007 6:26:38 AM EDT
[#40]
 "Sorry guys, the game has been canceled. We got caught using a number code over our helmet mics." |
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Posted: 10/5/2007 6:31:46 AM EDT
[#41]
Not to mention the FCC fines! Not to mention the hurt feelings of the opposing team casue you are leaving them out of the conversation. |
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Posted: 10/5/2007 8:45:08 AM EDT
[#42]
Does that mean the PO-LICE are violating the law when they use those 10-codes?
Somebody should call the FCC and triangulate their location, then go do a citizen's arrest on them. 
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Posted: 10/5/2007 11:19:16 AM EDT
[#43]
Law enforcement agencies operate their radios under a commercial or business license. Therefore, they operate under different rules. In fact, my police radio is fully encrypted, so that people without the right radio cannot even hear our transmissions. |
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Posted: 10/5/2007 12:23:14 PM EDT
[#44]
While HAM and GMRS/FRS (and I seem to recall CB as well) prohibit coded transmissions, I am pretty sure they are legal on MURS and VHF/UHF business bands (assuming you have a license) and certain it's allowed with Part15 devices (ie consumer 49mhz and 900mhz radios - and of course 802.11 has WEP/WPA). |
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Posted: 10/5/2007 12:36:53 PM EDT
[#45]
we had frs alarms on our trails and driveways, if one of us set them off we would double clic the mic on our radio to let us know it was just me, anyone listening would not connect the alarm to our voice, also when checking on an alarm the point was the only one allowed to speak the other would acknowlage with a double mic click.
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Posted: 10/5/2007 1:18:47 PM EDT
[#46]
I'm sure you are right and will add marine band. Still in an emergency a private individual wouldn't need to use 100% code. In fact, its cumbersome by being time consuming and most people not able to retain easily all the information. It would draw unwanted attention from all directions. Just like a military field communication the most likely information you would need to conceal is location, numbers, and descriptions of things. This is very easy to do and used all the time in private communications over public venue. Heck, my wife and I use it in stores even and I've used it on radios since 1960. Truck drivers have been using it long before I was born. An example would be I'll meet you at the barn or some obscure slang like the 76 for a certain truck stop. The FCC simply doesn't care where you are, what you have (not counting illegal radios), and what you are doing unless its criminal or you are using a frequency illegally for business nor should they. Tj |
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Posted: 10/5/2007 2:37:01 PM EDT
[#47]
Now you know the reason that I have not thrown away my 220mhz bricks. The local 220 repeater only has about 2 regular users (husband and wife). In my opinion, some comm security is better than none. Also consider that the bandplan in the amatuer 420 to 449.995 range doesn't "allow" FM use in the 420 to 430 range. I would not hesitate to operate low power in the 425-430 mhz Amatuer TV slot if needed. The local ATV repeater uses 1240 mhz for an imput. Not using it seems like a waste of 5 mhz of good radio spectrum to me. Especially spectrum that most scanner operators don't frequent due to the NTSC TV signals used there. As TJ put it, the best covert signals cover is "bring home a loaf of rye bread" or something sounding normal to everyone else, but has a different meaning to your group. Another way is to use D-Star or the APCO25 digital system for your radio signals. Both are legal for use on ham radio and will cut down the number of persons able to listen in. Cell phone security is good now that most of it is digital. To prevent HIPA violations, EMS/Rescue/Fire/LawEnf use cell phones for most of their "secure" comms.
RS |
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Posted: 10/5/2007 3:03:27 PM EDT
[#48]
In the Army, some things didn't need to be transmitted in code. The enemy's location could be transmitted in the clear, since they usually knew where they were, and it didn't matter if you gave their location in the clear.
If you were going to give a friendly location, you were supposed to transmit that information encoded.One type of code we used in the Army was called brevity codes, and they were used not just to conceal information, but also to compress information, since the shorter a transmission was, the better. That gave the enemy less time to locate our transmitter and to monitor our transmissions.  Instead of giving an 8-digit grid co-ordinate for a location, you could just say "Alpha", and as long as both parties knew where Alpha was, you saved quite a bit of transmission time on the radio(as well as battery power). |
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Posted: 10/5/2007 6:16:27 PM EDT
[#49]
Has anybody ever seen "The Ranger Digest" series by Ranger Rick? In Digest V on page 24 he gives the details of creating a coded matrix block to send messages. It is not nearly as robust or complicated as a one-time pad but it would certainly serve to encode a message well enough and quickly enough to fit the type of situation that is being discussed here.
Here is Ranger Rick's description: A a set of blocks containing pre-written words or messages you would commonly use on a military operation. The table can be as large as 14 x 12 blocks leaving 26 squares for each letter of the alphabet. And another 168 empty "blank blocks" for filling in whatever you need to write inside of them. So, a grid is drawn out on a card with each row and each column labeled with a letter of the alphabet. In each of the intersecting grid squares a number, letter, word or phrase is written. A message is then communicated by referring to the matrix grid for critical letters, numbers and phrases. It would be useful to create a laminated coded matrix grid for each member of the family. |
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Posted: 10/6/2007 7:53:07 AM EDT
[#50]
I don't fully agree with your above statment. Use post Katrina as an example. I stay behind and send family to friends 40 miles inland. I want to tell my wife something, anything, but don't want to give details over the radio on plain english. This is truely an SHTF event. I have plenty of time to use a book code to relay a message that "Mrs. Johnson next door is dead. The roof is gone. I'm ok but only have food for 5 days, after that I'm heading your way via the railroad bed south of the house" This is a true SHTF and no, I don't want Lemonjello down the road with his stolen scanner to know that I have food and that in 5 days I'm leaving via the railroad. At this point the FCC is non existant as far as I'm concerned! I do however agree that preset phrases are quicker in some cases but only for preplanned messges. |
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