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Posted: 6/14/2009 1:50:53 PM EDT
[#1]
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Quoted:
I'll just focus on this. Just because I can carry ^that, doesn't mean that I should carry it. I can carry more, comfortably, effectively. etc, so why not, when it increases my chances? I CAN carry a .22lr derringer. This: everyone needs to pick their own gun. It just irks me that someone will claim to 'just love'(so great, never jams, so sweet and smooth, etc...) shooting their 1911/.45 the most, but say that they don't carry it.
Quoted:
Understood. You know, I think that with modern JHP's, 9mm is the best handgun cartridge for self defense today. Yeah It isn't the diameter of a .45acp, doesn't travel as fast as a .357sig and it doesn't have as much energy as a .44mag, but I believe it to be the best compromise. [Disclaimer: Just my opinion, put down the torches.] You can carry 15 rounds in a compact gun that weighs a mere 30 ounces loaded. And those rounds travel at 1200fps, consistently penetrate over 12 inches on ballistic gelatin, expand close to .70in, and are fairly effective through intermediate barriers. I think if more people researched scientific testings and shootings they might come to a similar conclusion. Someone once said: "In all the shootings I've witnessed, the effects would have all been the same with 9mm or .45." I think quite a few men carry a .45 simply because of peer pressure. Not all, just some.
I'm not saying it is obsolete because it is old.... It is obsolete because 9mm Parabellum is a superior cartridge, that was designed two years earlier. My argument is actually in favor of an older cartridge. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying 45acp isn't effective and I'm not calling those who prefer it unintelligent or uneducated. I just think 9mm get a bad wrap from many guys simply because it's a smaller physical dimension. Many of these men adopted the .45 cartridge only because some peers told them it was the best and they would be a sissy/women for carrying a 9mm. You see it all the time on this board: "9mm is for women!" "9mm? America doesn't speak metric!" "9mm might expand, but .45 will never shrink!) Etc. .Mostly irrational arguments that are backed up by emotions. Again, not all that favor .45 do this, just some. Just my opinions, $0.02 and all that. But at the end of the day when all the petty arguments have ceased I'm just glad more and more good guys are carrying guns. Whether it be a .32 or a .500S&W. I do believe that certain weapon systems are built and adopted to a lowest common denominator. Right now, I have to carry an M9. I'd rather have my Para, but I rather not get shot because some 'lowest common denominator' couldn't hang onto my preferred weapon system while attempting to qualify, clear the weapon system, etc... Just my $.45 Everyone has different opinions on what is sufficient. You say that you can carry "more" than 15 rounds of 9mm. To me, 15 rounds of 9mm is very sufficient, and it's what I prefer. You don't feel this way and prefer "more". And there is nothing wrong with that at all. Since you're carrying an M9 I'm assuming you're in the Military and are carrying that pistol in either a belt holster, drop leg holster or mounted to a chest rig. In my above words that you quoted, I was implying the concealed carry (IWB) of a firearm by a civilian all day long in normal clothes. I should have clarified. With that stated, effective CC is very different than carrying an M9 on duty. And yes, you can carry a .22lr derringer with no burden at all. But I think you missed my point. Last time I checked they didn't have that impressive of a round count. Also a .22lr out of a snub nose is nowhere as effective as a 9mm in a 4in. barrel. And those are the reasons I why I don't feel that's an effective weapon system for me. I do agree with you that everyone needs to pick their own platform based on their own research and findings, and not just take the word of the first person that says so. Everyone has different specifications, needs and wants in a pistol. |
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Posted: 6/14/2009 2:36:06 PM EDT
[#2]
good stuff here
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Posted: 6/14/2009 4:04:23 PM EDT
[#3]
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Alternate rules for a gunfight: Rule 1: Have a gun. Everything else is negotiable. You didn't read it did you? In point of fact, I did. How the hell did this degrade into a 9mm vs 45 argument? |
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Posted: 6/14/2009 4:16:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Alternate rules for a gunfight: Rule 1: Have a gun. Everything else is negotiable. You didn't read it did you? In point of fact, I did. How the hell did this degrade into a 9mm vs 45 argument? Yep |
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Posted: 6/14/2009 4:21:26 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Alternate rules for a gunfight: Rule 1: Have a gun. Everything else is negotiable. You didn't read it did you? In point of fact, I did. How the hell did this degrade into a 9mm vs 45 argument? One of the rules says never carry a pistol cartridge that doesn't start with 4 or greater as the caliber. That insulted those of us that actually understand terminal ballistics. |
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Posted: 6/14/2009 4:55:21 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: I tried to correlate the adoption of the 9MM cartridge and the weapon systems catching up to the cartridge's full potential, with the introduction of 9MM weapon systems that are designed to be what 95% of the world would feel comfortable safely shooting. Quoted: Everyone has different opinions on what is sufficient. You say that you can carry "more" than 15 rounds of 9mm. To me, 15 rounds of 9mm is very sufficient, and it's what I prefer. You don't feel this way and prefer "more". And there is nothing wrong with that at all.Quoted: I'll just focus on this. Just because I can carry ^that, doesn't mean that I should carry it. I can carry more, comfortably, effectively. etc, so why not, when it increases my chances? I CAN carry a .22lr derringer. This: everyone needs to pick their own gun. It just irks me that someone will claim to 'just love'(so great, never jams, so sweet and smooth, etc...) shooting their 1911/.45 the most, but say that they don't carry it.Quoted: Understood. You know, I think that with modern JHP's, 9mm is the best handgun cartridge for self defense today. Yeah It isn't the diameter of a .45acp, doesn't travel as fast as a .357sig and it doesn't have as much energy as a .44mag, but I believe it to be the best compromise. [Disclaimer: Just my opinion, put down the torches.] You can carry 15 rounds in a compact gun that weighs a mere 30 ounces loaded. And those rounds travel at 1200fps, consistently penetrate over 12 inches on ballistic gelatin, expand close to .70in, and are fairly effective through intermediate barriers. I think if more people researched scientific testings and shootings they might come to a similar conclusion. Someone once said: "In all the shootings I've witnessed, the effects would have all been the same with 9mm or .45." I think quite a few men carry a .45 simply because of peer pressure. Not all, just some.I'm not saying it is obsolete because it is old.... It is obsolete because 9mm Parabellum is a superior cartridge, that was designed two years earlier. My argument is actually in favor of an older cartridge. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying 45acp isn't effective and I'm not calling those who prefer it unintelligent or uneducated. I just think 9mm get a bad wrap from many guys simply because it's a smaller physical dimension. Many of these men adopted the .45 cartridge only because some peers told them it was the best and they would be a sissy/women for carrying a 9mm. You see it all the time on this board: "9mm is for women!" "9mm? America doesn't speak metric!" "9mm might expand, but .45 will never shrink!) Etc. .Mostly irrational arguments that are backed up by emotions. Again, not all that favor .45 do this, just some. Just my opinions, $0.02 and all that. But at the end of the day when all the petty arguments have ceased I'm just glad more and more good guys are carrying guns. Whether it be a .32 or a .500S&W. I do believe that certain weapon systems are built and adopted to a lowest common denominator. Right now, I have to carry an M9. I'd rather have my Para, but I rather not get shot because some 'lowest common denominator' couldn't hang onto my preferred weapon system while attempting to qualify, clear the weapon system, etc... Just my $.45 Since you're carrying an M9 I'm assuming you're in the Military and are carrying that pistol in either a belt holster, drop leg holster or mounted to a chest rig. In my above words that you quoted, I was implying the concealed carry (IWB) of a firearm by a civilian all day long in normal clothes. I should have clarified. With that stated, effective CC is very different than carrying an M9 on duty. And yes, you can carry a .22lr derringer with no burden at all. But I think you missed my point. Last time I checked they didn't have that impressive of a round count. Also a .22lr out of a snub nose is nowhere as effective as a 9mm in a 4in. barrel. And those are the reasons I why I don't feel that's an effective weapon system for me. I do agree with you that everyone needs to pick their own platform based on their own research and findings, and not just take the word of the first person that says so. Everyone has different specifications, needs and wants in a pistol. I know that most people don't carry a M9 for CC, I just used it to illustrate the above point. Besides, if I wanted to CC an M9, I could and would, and only slightly easier than a Desert Eagle. Take the entire group that the gun manufacturers cater to, and break it down to individual characteristics... You'll have people that cannot physically operate a 1911/.45 effectively. You'll have 'new' shooters. Why scare them away with a 1911/.45? etc... What percentage of the population will buy a 9MM, instead of a .45? Once one factors in the big group buyers like military/le, it's a no brainer. Of course, newer/improved/easier designs will make more of the 15 rounds of 9MM hit closer/faster/easier than the equivalent shooter using a .45ACP. For me, the difference is a LOT less, which is why I sacrifice that very small difference for what I think is the more effective round. And please, before we get into the 'Yeah, but 9mm can hold more rounds' debate, I carry a P14.45 with 15+1 of 230 grain JHP. I can empty it while moving onto a dinner plate sized target at about 15 yards. I'm trying to improve, but until ammo comes around, I only get out about once a month or so. If you really want to compare... it's all on a scale: Approximately(loosely)... 33 rounds of .22lr 22 rounds of .25ACP 18 rounds of .380ACP 18 rounds of 9mm 15 rounds of .40S&W 14 rounds of 10mm 14 rounds of .45ACP I feel comfortable farther down on that scale, but I'm not average. I don't feel the 9mm is AS an effective weapon system for me, just as you don't feel 5 rounds of .22lr is AS effective for you. "More"? I say it's like the 'pre-ban, post-ban' magazines: I choose to carry full power, you choose to carry 'less'. It's the same thing, but it sounds like an insult, right? Weird how that works. Just so you know, I plan on getting a Browning Hi-Power, a CZ75, a Sig P226, a Colt Python, a Para compact .45, a Springfield Operator, and on and on. As far as carrying? Probably will always be the 1911 style .45, unless I'm open carrying in the south(tx/nm/etc), in which case I'd opt for the Python. I hope that clears some of it up. Got a Gold Cup I can have?  |
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Posted: 6/14/2009 5:05:22 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: I vote for the 50BMG:Quoted: One of the rules says never carry a pistol cartridge that doesn't start with 4 or greater as the caliber. Quoted: In point of fact, I did. How the hell did this degrade into a 9mm vs 45 argument?Quoted: You didn't read it did you?Alternate rules for a gunfight: Rule 1: Have a gun. Everything else is negotiable. That insulted those of us that actually understand terminal ballistics.
I expect nothing less from my carry weapon! You know how the Phaser can vaporize enemies? Dude, when you shoot somebody with a 50BMG(big motherfuckin' gun), there's nothing left, not even the shoes, or anything! |
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Posted: 6/14/2009 5:19:34 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Rules of Gunfighting Drill Sergeant Joe B. Fricks Rules For A Gunfight 24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which starts with anything smaller than "4". (I disagree; .357 magnum will do nicely. Dad) FAIL. That would mean .40S&W and .45ACP are acceptable, while .357Sig and 9mm Parabellum are not. This shows some major fail at the understanding of terminal ballistics. "Energy dump" and hydrostatic shock don't matter when it comes to handguns. It effectively comes down to getting stabbed with a pencil or a piece of rebar... The rebar will make a bigger hole, but the pencil penetrates the same structures. 28. The only thing you EVER say afterwards is, "He said he was going to kill me. I believed him. I'm sorry, Officer, but I'm very upset now. I can't say anything more. Please speak with my attorney." Legal advice FAIL. "I feared for my life, I just wanted to make him stop. I'm too upset to say anything more, please speak with my attorney." It is going to turn out really well when a witness says he never said anything about killing you... Or even better, video. It does say a caliber of which starts with anything smaller than a 4 I believe 9 is greater than 4 . 9mm isn't a caliber.... A caliber is a measurement in inches. Total FAIL. |
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