Well it might be North Korean,



Interesting the LACK of comment from Bejing or Pyongyang.

The Imperial Japanese Navy went out with the introduction of the Atomic bomb. They are now the more PC Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force.

I am well aware of that, but go over to [url]www.warships1.com[/url] and look up their current fleet and what their buliding. "Maritime Self Defense" doesnt require what they are building.

And the ships are still titled HIJMS.

Also Maritime Self Defense Force doesnt fit in the 80 chara title line.

Armed, your point, defined ???

Only that Japan is edging closer and closer to becoming a regional power.  The JMSDF was created by Japan and the US to protect shipping in Japanese waters.  Up until the 1980's they were equipped with mostly ASW frigates and destroyers.  Now they have AEGIS ships that are Tomahawk capable, even if they do not yet have rounds. They are now changing to a force whos job is to protect Taiwan and South Korea from a growing Peoples Liberation Army Navy.

There is nothing sinister about calling them the Imperaial Japanese Navy because they do still have a Emperor just like England has a Queen. They are being PC by still hiding behind the MSDF tag, but they are none the less the Imperial Japanese Navy.

Fully expect to be banished for life from the board for my unforgivable response to your post:  "I agree."

A very, very capable naval force could be forged by Japan, South Korea and Tiawan continuing to expand and enhance their navies.
That force when coupled with our own forces continually in the region (Ex. carrier groups) could make for a powerful deterrent and also kick "big ass" if ever required.
Each country with some over-all capability but Japan, South Korea and Taiwan would specialize in some area that would complement and augment the naval force as a whole.
I'm advocating a mini NATO combined forces fleet.An example might be Japan having some overall naval capability but specializing in anti-submarine warfare, maybe Taiwan specializes in missile defense for the fleet, etc.

One of the reasons the Brits had a little trouble with some prety old Argentine air assets was because Britain's NATO specialization was anti-submarine-warfare within a NATO fleet.  One of the responsibilities of the U.S. when working with a combined-forces NATO Fleet is to provide Combat Air Patrol.  Achieving air superiority over the battle ground/water is our job.

The Brits were fighting with what general naval assets they had available but unfortunately they didn't posses a fighter group capable of achieving total air superiority - the Harrier's just were not made for that job.
Had their been a combined NATO fleet in the Faulklands that war would have lasted about one day.

Not to mention, if the surrogate forces trade punches with the Chinese its less likely to lead to an all out war.  Look at the strain the P3 incident caused.  The USN would provide backup.  Its interesting that all these ships that the these countries are building fit very well into the USN.  Same systems and weapons.  

Redman,
Do you call blacks "niggers"?  If not, then don't call Japanese "Japs".  It is unbecoming.

I admit to having sympathies for Japan.  They ARE our strongest ally in asia.  Are they perfect?  No.  I have many "beefs" with them on trade policy.  But, the problems there are more indicative of our own government's stupidity than Japan being evil.

I do have concerns about this incedent.  For example.  We claim that our survaillence aircraft was outside the internationally recognized territorial waters of China.  Our government claimed that 12 miles is the limit, and our aircraft was outside that boundary.

But, I read an article (which I can't find now) about the recent incedent with Japan's actions which said that the suspect boat voilated Japan's 200 km territorial waters.  Does anyone see a contradiction here?

The Japanese Navy, under any name, is a sea-denial force, Aegis ships or not. Aegis is a defensive system and does not contribute directly to power projection. It pains me as a shipdriver to admit that.
Also just because a Tomahawk can fit in their magazines does not mean the ship is "Tomahawk capable." There is much more to the Tomahawk weapons system than just the missile and the launcher.

Correct !!
The mini-Nato force without the U.S. involved would be fighting under worse odds than as part of a mini-Nato force including a U.S. carrier battle group but as you say the correct mix of assets without the U.S. could fight a pretty fine delaying action.

Anyway one of our carrier groups would always be in proximity anyway now that ex. clinton is gone and the military chopping stopped.

Hmm, no word from Bejing. Maybe this one was from Pyongyang, they just dont talk about things like this. Their commandos land in South Korea, get wacked, they dont say nothing so its consistant that they would be quiet when one of their AGI's screw up and gets wacked.

I think The Republic of Korea would disagree with you.

You Sir are correct!

Either way this isn't a BAD thing....nothing like giving our Chinese 'friends' one more thing to think about.....


"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"


Bulldog OUT

If it is Chinese then I would be a little worried, if it is Korean then I wouldn't be worried. However, silence indicates neither. But I would worry more if it is chinese and they are saying nothing. It could lead to war if it is Chinese. They have been flexing their muscles for the last 5 years quite regularly lately.  And seem hell bent on starting a war, especially with the Taiwanese.  If someone sank one of there ships they could call it an unjust act and start escalating things to dangerous levels.

Benjamin

My dad doesn's use the "N" word to describe blacks, but he calls Japanese "Japs". I guess that little camping trip he took at Iwo Jima in 1945 kinda makes him biased.

Never forget what the Japanese did to Allied PoWs! NEVER FORGET!

I realize full well that the "Japs" were our enemies in World War II - however we have a lot more to gain from them now by being allies.......just like the Germans......I have a lot of respect for the intelligence and innovativeness of both countries. On the same note, I disapprove of cutting back the US military........We may have allies but that is no reason to shortchange ourselves - esp. in a world where China or North Korea could make a move any time....

Post from 1feral1 -

You got that right! I will never forget!

Problem is, the Japanese don't seem to remember anything from that period in their history.

Reading a Japanese history textbook on the subject (I have heard) would never give you a clue that they even started the war in the Pacific!

Eric The('Inscrutible'MyAss!)Hun[>]:)]

Very well said, gentlemen. mattja, please give your father my regards and thanks. And 1feral1, from what I understand, one of the reasons that America is so well thought of in Australia is because we kept the Nips at bay and out of your house ~1942 while your lads were fighting the Boche in North Africa.

Read your history, gents: Bataan, Makin Island, "comfort ladies," The Rape of Nanking, Shanghai, etc. The Nips were every bit as ruthless and brutal as the Nazis in WWII, but since they didn't have any kind of racial extermination goal, they seem to have gotten some kind of free pass by late 20th century history.

In the spirit of the rapidly approaching, but not yet arrived holiday season may I issue my heart-felt "PHUCK YOU" to the 1930's to August 1945 Empire of Japan.

Dunno about that, I thought the Japanese treated Americans brutally and the Chinese and Koreans especially horribly because they had the same kind of "master race" stuff going on as the Germans.  The Germans were/are the most notorious because they were the only country that used industrial skills to set up factories for the essential purpose of killing people and disposing of their bodies.

Racist they certainly were, but they didn't have the official goal of wiping out other races and salting the earth behind them. They killed a bunch, tortured a bunch and raped a bunch more, but history has in large part given them a pass because they didn't set up ovens and camps to wipe out the Chinese, Koreans, etc.

Of course, of course!  But, actions of "the Japanese" of 60 years ago do not give us the justification to condemn the Japanese of today.  Japan is transformed and reformed in much the same way as Germany.  We don't run around calling Germans "crouts" or "Nazis" anymore.  So what's with the "Japs" and "Nips"?

I'm not excusing the acts of Imperial Japan anymore than I would seek to dismiss the atrocities of Nazi Germany.  But please.  Two or three generations of Japanese have grown up since then.

If you want to blame today's Japan for thier misdeeds of 60 years ago, then I think you'd be consistent in blaming today's white people for slavery.  Both assertions are ridiculous.



And I honor all that he fought and sacrificed for.  I wholly support the firebombings that were done in Tokyo and the A-bomb attacks on Nagasaki and Hiroshima.  Those were justified acts of war.  We were at war to win.  I don't have a problem with that.  But, it was a different world back then.

I know it is easy to paint the Japanese as a monolithic one-dimensional group, because of their different appearance, language, mannerisms, etc.  But they are not.  Try meeting some and talking with them someday.  You'll be suprised to see just how much they embrace nearly everything American.  They view us very favorably.  Just something to think about.

I'm tired, I should log-off and I should feed the dogs.
Obviously I'm not that smart.

The Japanese got a pass from history due to the Soviet Union in particular and communism in general.

Current wisdom says the Japanese surrendered due to our use of "Atomic Bombs."
Maybe, just maybe this is true but I don't believe it.

Even as we and our few Pacific allies drove the Japanese ever closer to their home islands they still gave us little respect.
Now the Soviet Union ?  The Japanese both feared and respected.
As I recall about two weeks before the Japanese surrender the Soviets broke their non-aggression pact with Japan and declared war.
That's why Japan surrendered and why they helped fight communism.
In my opinion.

Japan was in (Still is come to think of it.) the correct geographic location to provide bases and support as we moved to contain communist expansion.
We needed Japan.
Tens of thousands of our and the allies POW's were brutalized or killed.
Everything from submersion in freezing water to infection with deadly diseases to see how long a human (sub-human to Japan)could survive were inflected on our people.

Japan did, does and will continue to view America as a mongrel race.
We are and I'm proud of that fact.

After the war, we got the research material on how long it took our POW's to die.
Japan got a practically "free ride."

In my opinion.

Believe what you will of Gen Mc Arthur but the guy had a set of "steel balls."
In many, many ways he set the stage for a post-war partnership with Japan

Maybe his first trip into Toyko was the most important thing he ever did.
He headed in from the docks (?)to Toyko with nothing but his vehicle and a jeep or two in his "convoy."
Japanese Soldier's lined the road all the way in.
When they saw his tiny group these soldiers did an about-face as recognition of his bravery - they deemed themselves "Unworthy" to view his face.
Mc A hadem from then on.
As I remember.
In my opinion.

Post from soylentgreen -

It most certainly does if the Japanese of today will not admit what evil was done in their name 60 years ago!

If the Germans try to deny there were '6 million' Jews exterminated, we should come down on them like a ton of bricks, as well.

And if anyone still wishes to lament the demise of the 'peculiar institution' of slavery, shouldn't he have his head examined too?

Eric The(HistoryIsHistory)Hun[>]:)]

Starting?

[-!-]

By the by, 12 miles is the limit a la international maritime law.  The Japs sank a ship for fishing in their waters (which actually wasn't in their waters at all), while habitually violating our waters to illegally hunt whales and salmon.

The Japs are in no way reformed.  We didn't force them to view the atrocities they commited against others.  We didn't (and don't) make them teach in their schools how they murdered and raped millions of Chinese and Burmese and Vietnamese and Americans and British and Autralians.  We still force German schools to teach about the Holocaust.  German schools teach German children that Germany was horrible and did terrible things to innocent people and got EXACTLY what it deserved.  The Japs learn about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, how the Americans started the war and how we made them suffer so badly (which we didn't).

Japs still have the same racial superiority complex they had in the 1930's.  They would go on a slaughter rampage all over again if they had the strength to do so.

As far as somebody saying the Japs didn't build ovens and gas chambers, so what?  Is murder by gun and sword any less murderous than murder by poisin gas?  They murdered millions.  They also had death camps in Manchuria where they experimented on POWs with poisin gas and biological weapons.  They performed vivisections on living victims.

Japan searches for boat crew

A search is under way for the missing crew of a boat sunk by Japanese coastguards in the East China Sea on Saturday.

The bodies of at least two people were spotted by a Japanese patrol plane and one of them was recovered by a patrol boat early on Sunday, a spokesman said.

About 15 crewmen were seen in the water after the boat sank, but the Japanese coastguards said they had lost track of them in high seas.

The incident began on Friday, when the boat, suspected to be a North Korean spy or smugglers' ship, was first spotted inside an area where Japan has exclusive fishing rights to the south of the country.

The search involved 12 patrol boats and 13 planes from the coastguard as well as two destroyers and a patrol plane from the Japanese Navy.

One coastguard official told a news conference that Korean hangul characters were written on the life jacket of the body that was recovered.

He said the coastguard failed to retrieve the other body because its life jacket had slipped off.

Unwelcome visitor

After spotting the vessel north-west of Amami Oshima Island early on Saturday, a flotilla of 20 Japanese ships had given chase, said coastguard spokeswoman Miki Sakamoto.

The vessel had been fired on after failing to heed warning shots and an order to stop.

A fire which broke out on board was apparently extinguished.

The vessel was said to look like a fishing boat and was fleeing in the direction of China.

Precedents

This was the first such incident since March 1999, when the Japanese coastguard was involved in a high-speed chase with what it described as North Korean spy vessels.

Correspondents say Japan has become sensitive about intrusions into its exclusive economic zone since the incident, when Japanese warplanes and destroyers opened fire for the first time since World War II on two suspected North Korean spy boats.

North Korea denied any involvement.

Last year, Japan and China were involved in a row after a series of incidents in which alleged Chinese spy vessels entered Japan's waters without notice.

Since then, the Japanese coastguard has deployed high-speed boats carrying 20mm machine guns and sophisticated search-and-surveillance technology, including night vision.

From [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_1725000/1725816.stm[/url]

If the Germans try to deny there were '6 million' Jews exterminated....
Eric The(HistoryIsHistory)Hun[>]:)][/quote]
HistoryIsHistory, were any Slavs, Gypsys, mentally ill and pyhsically handcapped (non Jews) exterminated ?

I've always wondered how at least one non-Jewish person didn't slip in.

Ahh Bejing breaks its silence (even though it seems to have not been their boat).

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_1726000/1726709.stm[/url]

Note the shock words "Japanese use of force" in the statement- deliberately trying to evoke images of World War II Japan amongst those who listen to the Chinese propaganda machine.

This is a picture of one of the Japanese patrol boats that engaged the NKPA AGI:
[img]http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1725000/images/_1726709_ship300ap.jpg[/img]

Close up of bridge damage:
[img]http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1725000/images/_1726709_bullets150ap.jpg[/img]

Readman, the reason the Japanese get a 'BY" as you claim on what they did during WWII has more than a little to do with what those "poor Koreans and Chinese" did to us before the dust had even settled...

It was a tiny little affair, buy you might remember it, its called the KOREAN WAR!!!

China and North Korea went COMMUNIST and proceeded to attempt to kick all "round eyes" out of Asia. Japan was helpful to us in that war, and ever since.

I won't even go in to how the Viet Minh stabbed us in the back.

I suppose you want us to kiss up to the PRC and the NKPA, and crucify the "unrepentant" Japanese eh now?

Of course a bigot like you probably cannot tell the difference...

Post from 5subslr5 -

Of course, my friend, there were non-Jews killed (mentally 'defective' and deformed German citizens were actually first) but nowhere close to the 6 million Jews. Right?

Have you ever hear anyone try to [b]deny[/b] that there were any 'Slavs, Gypsies, mentally ill or physically handicapped' people killed?

Have you ever heard of anyone disputing the fact that 6 million Jews were killed?

Of course you have!

Eric The(SoTheNazis'CrimesAgainstTheJewsWereTheirGreatestSin!)Hun[>]:)]

this sure has legs.....

OK, here's some low down from a close associate of a fairly prominent IJN history clique.  Their credentials include, for the record:
1) Consulting on the ID of Japanese CV wreckage near midway (a chunk of IJN Kaga) for Nauticos
2) Consultation with Robert Ballard for location of same wrecks
3) Publication in USNI "Proceedings"
4) A trip to the PI to consult on the location of 2 IJN BBs sunk at Surigao Str.

Anyhow..... back to the JMSDF.....

They ARE making a comeback, and they ARE our best Ally in Asia, superseded ONLY by the UK worldwide.

They are building LHD (Landing Ship, Helicopter Deck) type vessels, and the 1st is named Akagi.

When some left leaners in their Diet raised a stink, the Navy replied that the ships didn't have a 'flight deck' per se, but merely a horizontal ascension mechanism or some such neatly crafted bit of spin.

Their 'ban' on foreign ventures is null and void when it becomes neceesary to save national face, among other easily met criteria.

Oh yes, the IJN is most likely coming back.  And it's good for us, certainly in the short term.

My cohort recommends selling Japan our three Diesel CVs recently retired and letting them worry about Taiwan and China.  Japan gets the headache, we get the $$$, and Japan also gets an ego boost.

I don't worry about another Pearl Harbor - one, we don't rely on Pearl like that anymore,, two, we don't have a base of that sort except at Yokosuka in Japan, and three - they LEARNED, in no uncertain terms, that they CANNOT go toe to toe with the US, and most likely China, EVER.

And for pete's sake - quit b*tching about the word Jap - you should hear what they say about Koreans!

hmmm, regardless what is going on makes no sense whatsoever. What do the North Koreans have to gain by spying on the Japanese??? Nothing.  Why do the North Koreans spy on the Japanese????  I don't buy the spy boat story.  The north koreans have nothing to gain by that.


Benjamin

Anyone have any suggestions?

Why does the NKPA spy on the JSDF?

Well, for starters, if they invade South Korea they will fight the JSDF and the US.

JSDF uses mostly US, or copy's of US Equipment.

JSDF and US bases are co-located, if you spy on one you spy on the other.

What specifically can they learn?

Radio and radar frequencies to be filed away and used for building jammers, decoys, and radiation homing missile seakers.

Bulk message traffic to supply code breakers.

Look and listen for unusual radio traffic that would indicate a US military operation against North Korea.

This is just for starters...

They use things like AGIs because they are too poor to have satellites of their own.  Of course even with satellites we still have our EP-3's and EKC-135's

The KGB doesnt supply them with info anymore like during the cold war, they have to do more digging on their own.

Good point.  I wasn't thinking of the Koreans from that point of view.  I had forgotten that they are open antagonists to the South Koreans.  

Benjamin

The sins of the father is visited upon the children. All of the countries in the far east have committed terrorist acts against the U.S. at one time or another and must be made to pay dearly now. There must be a call for Congress to declare war upon the countries in that region and our nuclear resources be placed into full implementation. God Bless America.

Edited to say:

The Germans were the front line against the Soviets in the Cold War and we didn't give them a "by."  Ignoring the atrocities that the Japs commited was a political thing.  MacArthur didn't want to "dishonor" the Japs, so very few member of the Jap leadership were ever brought to trial.  We also refused to hand Jap leaders over to the Chinese for trial because they had gone Communist.

As for your comments regarding me being a bigot:  I hold people responsible for their actions.  The Japs murdered millions of innocent people and felt/feel absolutely no remorse.  What is even worse is that they completely deny that they did anything wrong.  They refuse to accept responsibility for starting the war with the United States.  They "know nothing" of the Bataan Death March, or of the death camps in Burma and the Philippines.


Japan our best ally in Asia?  Are you fucking kidding me?  The Japs hate us, consider themselves superior to us, and have been trying fervently for years to make us leave our bases on the Home Islands.  They will be of as much support during any future conflict as they were in the Korean War, ergo, no support at all.  Next to the Koreans, our most steadfast allies have been the Nationalist Chinese on Taiwan.

Interesting point.  I think it is highly plausible.

Some do, I'm sure of it.  But, attempting to paint all Japanese that way is ridiculous...just as it would be ridiculous to judge all American sensibilities by the acts of the KKK.

The TRUTH is that the Japanese people are NOT a bunch of short slant-eyed motherfuckers with buck teeth bent on destruction of America and our way of life.  If you live under these notions, then you are JUST PLAIN WRONG.  How many of you who call the Japanese "Japs" and the like actually know anyone from Japan?  If you don't, then what are your conculsions based on?  WWII propaganda posters?!?!?

I know and have worked with many Japanese.  I have formed great friendships with some of them.  Yes, they have their quirks, just like any of us may have.  But, overall, they are delightful companions.  

Some of us remember WWII (I am not old enough to actually remember, but I've learned about it in school, by reading, etc).  We should never forget...but don't you think it's time to get over it?

Japan and those in charge should have been called to task 55 years ago!  Failure to do so was not the responsiblity of the Japanese, but rather our weakness or political manuvering.  You decide which.  Blaming today's Japan is ridiculous.

Japan suffered.  Two young ladies I know never knew their grandfathers...becuase they died in the war.  Americans suffered in the same way, but we weren't the only ones.

Speaking of "Imperial Japan" and the fear of it by Americans is almost laughable.  We can debate the relative merits of empire all we want.  But, the TRUTH is that America is the biggest empire in the present day.

Right or wrong, we project our military power and economic interests around the world.  Since the end of WWII, how many wars have we fought?  Korea, Vietnam, The Gulf War, Panama, Grenada, etc, etc.  How many has Japan fought?  Justified or not, we participate in military action FAR more frequently than Japan does and at MUCH higher strengths.

When was the last time we fought a war on our own soil?  No, it's always in some far off land that Americans never heard of before the powers that be decided that it was important.

Please don't misunderstand.  I generally support our military intervention if it is truly necessary.  But, we should call it what it is...EMPIRE.

Thank you for the clarification.

Fine.  Then let's hold Japan responsible for voilating our waters.  I don't have a problem with that.

Now, the boat that was sunk was CLEARLY up to no good.  Why else would they feel the need to go on a six hour chase and open fire on the Japanese ships (as well as allegedly scuttling their own ship)?  Does not the US Navy and Coast Guard board ships outside of our 12 mile coastal limit?  Why shouldn't the Japanese have the same Right?

Sank their spy boat, huh?

"I fear we have awakened a sleepy little communist dwarf."

I cant beleve some of the posts here.  Guys who rant all about the ChiCom evil come here and spout the same WWII based anti-Japanese rhetoric that Bejing and Pyongyang spew forth. It appears that the American left arent the only ones capable of double think-

Anyway, take a look at this, IR images from a Coast Guard heilo of the AGI which Japan says show it firing a rocket at one of their patrol craft (top frame) The Kanji were added by the Japanese TV station that originally aired the film.

[img]http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20011224/mdf104554.jpg[/img]

And this is oficially the first action by the Japanese military since 1945, so that sort of makes it historic.

I personally don't believe for a minute that the Japanese aim to destroy the US. I don't think anyone has stated that here either. The Japanese view the US as a market; one it would like to dominate, but one it would like to have stay around for a while. However, I do believe that certain actions taken in the 80's, such as dumping steel and memory chips on the US market, were taken solely to destroy US businesses competing in those market sectors. This is ancient history today. It is regarded as fact. Now, is the destruction of US firms from those sectors not akin to an act of war? Sure, our own policies allowed it, but I do believe the Japanese took advantage of our market economy during that time.

As far as the Japanese people, I have met quite a few Japanese students (perhaps 30), as my mother-in-law is part of the foreign exchange student program at a local college. She's been hosting Japanese students in her home for years. By in large, the Japanese people I have met are well-mannered, respectful, and good social company. They are financially independent, insomuch as they tend to pay their own way to college here in the US. However, they are in complete and utter denial as to their actions before and during WWII. It's very difficult to get them to talk about that time at all. They know they did something wrong, but it's not something they talk about.

Most people in the US know slavery was wrong. This is a topic that has been addressed at every level in the US. We are not in denial in terms of our past (at least in that regard). The Japanese are in total denial in regards to their actions in Manchuria, Korea, the Philippines; you name it. Doesn't that tell you a little about the Japanese psyche?

Finally, if you feel the term "Jap" is a slight, consider for a moment the slang words they use to describe everyone who is non-Japanese. "Jap" is not so bad.