User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
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Posted: 11/19/2008 6:57:08 PM EDT
[#1]
Chapter 11 for the Big 3 and reorganize without the UAW.
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Posted: 11/19/2008 6:57:12 PM EDT
[#2]
It takes a real winner to get paid to do nothing.
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Posted: 11/19/2008 6:58:27 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: Even if they get rid of the UAW, they still have a automobile line up that people don't want.Chapter 11 for the Big 3 and reorganize without the UAW. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:00:15 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Even if they get rid of the UAW, they still have a automobile line up that people don't want.
Chapter 11 for the Big 3 and reorganize without the UAW. True, but it is a start. You have to start somewhere. Get rid of the UAW and the current senior management and then immediately redesign the product line. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:01:13 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Even if they get rid of the UAW, they still have a automobile line up that people don't want.
Chapter 11 for the Big 3 and reorganize without the UAW. But that's because of an albatrose around their neck. Its no wonder the GM and Ford equivalents to the Accord and Corolla suck so much. THey have to make them $2000 cheaper so that they can pay the labor. There's a reason the cars feel cheaper. Its because the Honda/Toyotas have their value in the product, and a big piece of what the consumer is paying for with the domestic car is old dipshit and his buddies to play crossword puzzles. Fucking outrageous. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:04:21 PM EDT
[#6]
In before the first pro-union post.
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:11:28 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm Money quote: Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working –– on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.
"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat." Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and Delphi Corp. as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union. The jobs bank programs were the price the industry paid in the 1980s to win UAW support for controversial efforts to boost productivity through increased automation and more flexible manufacturing. That's what they were doing in 2005. Is there any question as to why the fuck the "big 3" are eating shit sandwiches? Is there really any particularly good reason why tax payers should have to take a bite? 12,000 people @ $31/hr = $372,000/Hour!!! Figure an 8 hour work day and that's just under $3,000,000 a fucking day!! Figure a 5 day work week and that's almost $15,000,000 a week for absolutely nothing!! And these UAW fucks cry and whine about the over paid CEO's draining the company. I know people who work for the big three in production and many of the UAW people who are actually "working" aren't working much harder than these "Job Bank" idiots. It's so frustrating! 
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:12:38 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Even if they get rid of the UAW, they still have a automobile line up that people don't want.
Chapter 11 for the Big 3 and reorganize without the UAW. Imagine how much cheaper they could sell the cars without all the disgusting waste. It would make them much more competitive. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:19:12 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
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Even if they get rid of the UAW, they still have a automobile line up that people don't want.
Chapter 11 for the Big 3 and reorganize without the UAW. Oh bullshit.....GM outsold Toyota last year....I see plenty of new domestics on the road. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:19:21 PM EDT
[#10]
If you couldn't already tell this really pisses me off!
Can you imagine any small business owner putting up with anything like this? I don't understand why a corporation would. I almost wonder if there have been "kick backs" or some incentive for management to allow this to continue for so long. How do people think they can milk their company this badly and ask for more and expect the company to survive? Frankly, I like the foreign cars that are built in the US more than domestic cars because by and large the workers in the "foreign" auto plants seem proud of their jobs and respect their employers. UAW people always seem to have so much spite for the big three. How are they going to do a decent job for a company they seem to hate so much? I know in my work history I've put in that little extra effort for the companies that I've liked to be with. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:24:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Even if they get rid of the UAW, they still have a automobile line up that people don't want.
Chapter 11 for the Big 3 and reorganize without the UAW. True, but it is a start. You have to start somewhere. Get rid of the UAW and the current senior management and then immediately redesign the product line. How long do think it will take to design new products that buyers want and get those projects into production? IIRC, it's an 18-36 month design cycle for most of the auto mfg's..... Brian |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:27:35 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Even if they get rid of the UAW, they still have a automobile line up that people don't want.
Chapter 11 for the Big 3 and reorganize without the UAW. But that's because of an albatrose around their neck. Its no wonder the GM and Ford equivalents to the Accord and Corolla suck so much. THey have to make them $2000 cheaper so that they can pay the labor. There's a reason the cars feel cheaper. Its because the Honda/Toyotas have their value in the product, and a big piece of what the consumer is paying for with the domestic car is old dipshit and his buddies to play crossword puzzles. Fucking outrageous. Yes, legacy costs are a big issue for the B3 - however, you're kidding yourself if you believe any car company doesn't use the least expensive component that meets the basic requirements - pennies on a pc/part price make or break contracts at those volumes. Brian |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:28:22 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Chapter 11 for the Big 3 and reorganize without the UAW. This. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:30:16 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Even if they get rid of the UAW, they still have a automobile line up that people don't want.
Chapter 11 for the Big 3 and reorganize without the UAW. Baloney. I would be driving a Challenger right now if an R/T was coming in at or around $20-22k. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:30:19 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Even if they get rid of the UAW, they still have a automobile line up that people don't want.
Chapter 11 for the Big 3 and reorganize without the UAW. Baloney. I would be driving a Challenger right now if an R/T was coming in at or around $20-22k. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:45:52 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Even if they get rid of the UAW, they still have a automobile line up that people don't want.
Chapter 11 for the Big 3 and reorganize without the UAW. Baloney. I would be driving a Challenger right now if an R/T was coming in at or around $20-22k. Even if Mopar imported 5 y/o Indian slave labor to build the Challenger RT at $1/day per child the car wouldn't sell for $20-22K..... Stop kidding yourself. Brian |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 8:15:12 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Even if they get rid of the UAW, they still have a automobile line up that people don't want.
Chapter 11 for the Big 3 and reorganize without the UAW. Baloney. I would be driving a Challenger right now if an R/T was coming in at or around $20-22k. Even if Mopar imported 5 y/o Indian slave labor to build the Challenger RT at $1/day per child the car wouldn't sell for $20-22K..... Stop kidding yourself. Brian Sir, Assume there is no difference in the materials, fit finish, base options, etc. That means if the market prices entry level sedan at $20K, then Toyota et al make a better profit than GM/FORD. It means they can R&D better, their company can survive without taxpayer bail outs etc. But I still do not believe that the cars themselves are equivalent at the price point. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 9:12:50 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
you're kidding yourself if you believe any car company doesn't use the least expensive component that meets the basic requirements It all depends on how you define "basic requirements". Different car companies do indeed have VERY different "basic requirements" for the quality of the components that go into their products. Some companies' QC procedures are extremely stringent as well as the design and material specifications, all the way down to the handling and shipping of the products. Those particular companies are NOT any of the "big 3" domestic manufacturers. So yes, different car companies do pay 2-3 times the price for a component that is a uniformly higher quality part than what other car companies specify. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 5:39:55 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Even if they get rid of the UAW, they still have a automobile line up that people don't want.
Chapter 11 for the Big 3 and reorganize without the UAW. True, but it is a start. You have to start somewhere. Get rid of the UAW and the current senior management and then immediately redesign the product line. How long do think it will take to design new products that buyers want and get those projects into production? IIRC, it's an 18-36 month design cycle for most of the auto mfg's..... Brian You have to start before you can finish. The sooner they start the redesign, the sooner they will finish it. They can also ramp up production of the cars that are selling and kill off the ones that aren't.
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Posted: 11/20/2008 5:42:41 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Even if they get rid of the UAW, they still have a automobile line up that people don't want.Chapter 11 for the Big 3 and reorganize without the UAW. True, but it is a start. You have to start somewhere. Get rid of the UAW and the current senior management and then immediately redesign the product line. How long do think it will take to design new products that buyers want and get those projects into production? IIRC, it's an 18-36 month design cycle for most of the auto mfg's..... Brian You have to start before you can finish. The sooner they start the redesign, the sooner they will finish it. They can also ramp up production of the cars that are selling and kill off the ones that aren't.So at what, $8BIL a month, we'll only have to give them $288BIL in 36 Months before they hopefully start making something worth a damn? No thanks. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 5:44:21 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
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Quoted:
Quoted:
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Even if they get rid of the UAW, they still have a automobile line up that people don't want.
Chapter 11 for the Big 3 and reorganize without the UAW. True, but it is a start. You have to start somewhere. Get rid of the UAW and the current senior management and then immediately redesign the product line. How long do think it will take to design new products that buyers want and get those projects into production? IIRC, it's an 18-36 month design cycle for most of the auto mfg's..... Brian You have to start before you can finish. The sooner they start the redesign, the sooner they will finish it. They can also ramp up production of the cars that are selling and kill off the ones that aren't.So at what, $8BIL a month, we'll only have to give them $288BIL in 36 Months before they hopefully start making something worth a damn? No thanks. No, we don't give them squat. That is where the Chapter 11 comes in. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 5:47:40 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
It takes a real winner to get paid to do nothing. I've got a very good work ethic, but I could swallow it to work a job like that. If they're stupid enough to pay it, I'm corrupt enough to accept it. Course, knowing me, I'd make up work to do, or bring in work to do, etc. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 5:49:16 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
It takes a real winner to get paid to do nothing. I've got a very good work ethic, but I could swallow it to work a job like that. If they're stupid enough to pay it, I'm corrupt enough to accept it. Course, knowing me, I'd make up work to do, or bring in work to do, etc. so........what else are you willing to bend your morals on? 
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Posted: 11/20/2008 5:50:13 AM EDT
[#24]
two parties to an agreement
In this case the union and ohhhhhhh, wait for it, management The union's job is to get what it can for it's members The management's job is to give up as little as possible They gave up this (and many other things), because they thought they could make money blame management, not union |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 5:52:53 AM EDT
[#25]
What the corp's need is a few more years for the new negotiations\contracts to take effect from last year. They are getting rid of all the old brainless workers and replacing them with teenagers at half price with a salary cap of 60% of the current top out. They made the changes needed - just too late.
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Posted: 11/20/2008 5:55:59 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Is there any question as to why the fuck the "big 3" are eating shit sandwiches? Is there really any particularly good reason why tax payers should have to take a bite? Further, I can't see buying a product of which a large part of the purchase price, isn't for the quality or the workmanship, but rather... goes to pay $30/hr for thousands of employees to do crossword puzzles. Another chunk of the purchase price goes to private corporate jet fleets. Yeah... I'll pass. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 5:56:02 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
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It takes a real winner to get paid to do nothing. I've got a very good work ethic, but I could swallow it to work a job like that. If they're stupid enough to pay it, I'm corrupt enough to accept it. Course, knowing me, I'd make up work to do, or bring in work to do, etc. so........what else are you willing to bend your morals on? Women. 
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Posted: 11/20/2008 5:59:26 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
two parties to an agreement In this case the union and ohhhhhhh, wait for it, management The union's job is to get what it can for it's members The management's job is to give up as little as possible They gave up this (and many other things), because they thought they could make money blame management, not union What's management's alternative? ooohhhh, wait for it Striking workers, zero production and major loses across the board. ETA: Extortion isn't a very nice word, but that's exactly what unions practice. Yes, there's some blame to be shared by the management. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:02:58 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
12,000 people @ $31/hr = $372,000/Hour!!! Figure an 8 hour work day and that's just under $3,000,000 a fucking day!! Figure a 5 day work week and that's almost $15,000,000 a week for absolutely nothing!! And these UAW fucks cry and whine about the over paid CEO's draining the company. I know people who work for the big three in production and many of the UAW people who are actually "working" aren't working much harder than these "Job Bank" idiots. It's so frustrating! "Absolutely nothing"? Isn't that taking the anti-union hysteria just a touch too far? I'm no union fan but the workers DO produce parts and vehicles. Sometimes even QUALITY parts and vehicles.  Just don't say they do nothing though...
Edit: This is what I get for not reading TFA.... woops. They ARE literally being paid to do nothing.
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:03:20 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
two parties to an agreement In this case the union and ohhhhhhh, wait for it, management The union's job is to get what it can for it's members The management's job is to give up as little as possible They gave up this (and many other things), because they thought they could make money blame management, not union Management is not free to just fire them - you do understand the protections unions enjoy, right? |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:07:18 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: +1Quoted: two parties to an agreement In this case the union and ohhhhhhh, wait for it, management The union's job is to get what it can for it's members The management's job is to give up as little as possible They gave up this (and many other things), because they thought they could make money blame management, not union Management is not free to just fire them - you do understand the protections unions enjoy, right? Look into the "job bank/pool". It'll disgust you. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:10:35 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm Money quote: Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working –– on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.
"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat." Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and Delphi Corp. as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union. The jobs bank programs were the price the industry paid in the 1980s to win UAW support for controversial efforts to boost productivity through increased automation and more flexible manufacturing. That's what they were doing in 2005. Is there any question as to why the fuck the "big 3" are eating shit sandwiches? Is there really any particularly good reason why tax payers should have to take a bite? 12,000 people @ $31/hr = $372,000/Hour!!! Figure an 8 hour work day and that's just under $3,000,000 a fucking day!! Figure a 5 day work week and that's almost $15,000,000 a week for absolutely nothing!! And these UAW fucks cry and whine about the over paid CEO's draining the company. I know people who work for the big three in production and many of the UAW people who are actually "working" aren't working much harder than these "Job Bank" idiots. It's so frustrating! Remember to add all the free health and such....you can make that 31 turn to 51+ really quick. Brian |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:14:43 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Quoted:
12,000 people @ $31/hr = $372,000/Hour!!! Figure an 8 hour work day and that's just under $3,000,000 a fucking day!! Figure a 5 day work week and that's almost $15,000,000 a week for absolutely nothing!! And these UAW fucks cry and whine about the over paid CEO's draining the company. I know people who work for the big three in production and many of the UAW people who are actually "working" aren't working much harder than these "Job Bank" idiots. It's so frustrating! "Absolutely nothing"? Isn't that taking the anti-union hysteria just a touch too far? I'm no union fan but the workers DO produce parts and vehicles. Sometimes even QUALITY parts and vehicles. Just don't say they do nothing though...Well according to that article they claim that these particular 12,000 do nothing. Well crosswords and such...I guess that's something. These 12,000 are not contributing to the production of vehicles. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:15:05 AM EDT
[#34]
So far, GM's stock price is down 28% today (to $2/share). Ford's is down 16.67% (to $1.05/share). It looks like the market is predicting bankruptcy in their futures.
edited to add: Holy crap, in the time it took me to type that, GM's shares fell to $1.88 (a drop of 32.62% so far today) edited again to add: Crap, there's no support at all for the shares: GEN MOTORS(NYSE: GM) NEW Real-time: 1.79 1.00 (35.84%) 10:18AM ET FORD MOTOR CO(NYSE: F) NEW Real-time: 1.02 0.24 (19.05%) 10:19AM ET |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:16:38 AM EDT
[#35]
I'm pretty sure chapter 7 is reorganization, not chapter 11.
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:20:53 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
I'm pretty sure chapter 7 is reorganization, not chapter 11. I will take your word on it. 
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:22:36 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
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I'm pretty sure chapter 7 is reorganization, not chapter 11. I will take your word on it. don't. You were right. Ch 7 = liquidation. Ch 11 = reorganization. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:24:06 AM EDT
[#38]
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I'm pretty sure chapter 7 is reorganization, not chapter 11. I will take your word on it. don't. You were right. Ch 7 = liquidation. Ch 11 = reorganization. Damn! Just when I get to trusting my fellow Arfcommers they lie to me.
I really am not that up on the bankruptcy laws.
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:25:18 AM EDT
[#39]
It seems a lot of people (including myself) were unaware that UAW workers were paid such a huge amount (roughly $71/hr incl benefits.) I think this leaves a real bad taste in people mouth and VERY little sympathy in their hearts.
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:25:57 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Well according to that article they claim that these particular 12,000 do nothing. Well crosswords and such...I guess that's something. These 12,000 are not contributing to the production of vehicles. Yeah... I finally read the article and um, yeah, i was wrong.  These people in particular are indeed being paid to do nothing.
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:28:08 AM EDT
[#41]
Oh yeah, job banks.
One of my favorite parts of the UAW shit sandwiches. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:29:39 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Even if they get rid of the UAW, they still have a automobile line up that people don't want.
Chapter 11 for the Big 3 and reorganize without the UAW. But that's because of an albatrose around their neck. Its no wonder the GM and Ford equivalents to the Accord and Corolla suck so much. THey have to make them $2000 cheaper so that they can pay the labor. There's a reason the cars feel cheaper. Its because the Honda/Toyotas have their value in the product, and a big piece of what the consumer is paying for with the domestic car is old dipshit and his buddies to play crossword puzzles. Fucking outrageous. This is 100% true. Get rid of the unions, some of the taxes and good bit of the regulations and the Big 3 will be kicking the world's ass in car manufacturing. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:30:21 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
two parties to an agreement In this case the union and ohhhhhhh, wait for it, management The union's job is to get what it can for it's members The management's job is to give up as little as possible They gave up this (and many other things), because they thought they could make money blame management, not union Blame both. There is plenty to go around. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:30:34 AM EDT
[#44]
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I'm pretty sure chapter 7 is reorganization, not chapter 11. I will take your word on it. don't. You were right. Ch 7 = liquidation. Ch 11 = reorganization. Eh. Shot in the dark.
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:36:49 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
two parties to an agreement In this case the union and ohhhhhhh, wait for it, management The union's job is to get what it can for it's members The management's job is to give up as little as possible They gave up this (and many other things), because they thought they could make money blame management, not union Management is not free to just fire them - you do understand the protections unions enjoy, right? Sure they could They could say "we're not paying it, we're locking you out, we're hiring scabs", any of those really, what could the union do? strike? be more scabs than you could shake a stick at, esp in Michigan. They could offer less, or no job banks, or fewer benefits. Really, what other jobs that pay like that are there? (none that i see) and probably still do ok. They chose not to, why, because "labor peace" was cheaper or they felt they could still make money even with this deal on the table. I realize americans as a whole don't know how to negotiate, but certainly big corporations do, and so do unions. management decides which cars to build and in what volumes. management decides which R & D processes and projects to fund. Management decides where marketing dollars are spent. The union has zero say in any of that. The union does what management tells them to do. This isn't the unions fault. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:46:19 AM EDT
[#46]
As distasteful as the concept of paid to do nothing is, if someone wanted to pay me $30+ per hour to surf Arfcom all day...
That said, glaring example of the shit that is killing the industry. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:47:34 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
two parties to an agreement In this case the union and ohhhhhhh, wait for it, management The union's job is to get what it can for it's members The management's job is to give up as little as possible They gave up this (and many other things), because they thought they could make money blame management, not union Management is not free to just fire them - you do understand the protections unions enjoy, right? Sure they could They could say "we're not paying it, we're locking you out, we're hiring scabs", any of those really, what could the union do? strike? be more scabs than you could shake a stick at, esp in Michigan. They could offer less, or no job banks, or fewer benefits. Really, what other jobs that pay like that are there? (none that i see) and probably still do ok. They chose not to, why, because "labor peace" was cheaper or they felt they could still make money even with this deal on the table. I realize americans as a whole don't know how to negotiate, but certainly big corporations do, and so do unions. management decides which cars to build and in what volumes. management decides which R & D processes and projects to fund. Management decides where marketing dollars are spent. The union has zero say in any of that. The union does what management tells them to do. This isn't the unions fault. Denial, it's not just a river in Africa.
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:52:41 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
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two parties to an agreement In this case the union and ohhhhhhh, wait for it, management The union's job is to get what it can for it's members The management's job is to give up as little as possible They gave up this (and many other things), because they thought they could make money blame management, not union Management is not free to just fire them - you do understand the protections unions enjoy, right? Sure they could They could say "we're not paying it, we're locking you out, we're hiring scabs", any of those really, what could the union do? strike? be more scabs than you could shake a stick at, esp in Michigan. They could offer less, or no job banks, or fewer benefits. Really, what other jobs that pay like that are there? (none that i see) and probably still do ok. They chose not to, why, because "labor peace" was cheaper or they felt they could still make money even with this deal on the table. I realize americans as a whole don't know how to negotiate, but certainly big corporations do, and so do unions. management decides which cars to build and in what volumes. management decides which R & D processes and projects to fund. Management decides where marketing dollars are spent. The union has zero say in any of that. The union does what management tells them to do. This isn't the unions fault. OK - fine, let's say I agree with your premise. Regardless of fault it is now time for the UAW to go "bye-bye". On that we agree, correct? |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:53:13 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
two parties to an agreement In this case the union and ohhhhhhh, wait for it, management The union's job is to get what it can for it's members The management's job is to give up as little as possible They gave up this (and many other things), because they thought they could make money blame management, not union Management is not free to just fire them - you do understand the protections unions enjoy, right? Sure they could They could say "we're not paying it, we're locking you out, we're hiring scabs", any of those really, what could the union do? strike? I'm pretty sure that labor laws give a lot more protection to unions than that. Then again, I'm 0/1 in this thread. Might not be wise to listen to me. 
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:55:11 AM EDT
[#50]
Despite it all, I was considering a new Suburban. But now, I just cannot bring myself to buy an American car until this gets sorted out.
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