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Posted: 6/5/2008 9:56:29 AM EDT

outshoot

Posted: 6/5/2008 9:57:04 AM EDT

[#1]

What rifle?

Posted: 6/5/2008 9:58:28 AM EDT

[#2]

height=8

Quoted:
What rifle?
Can you outshoot any of them? Tell your story.

Posted: 6/5/2008 9:59:11 AM EDT

[#3]

NO!

But I can outshoot my ammo.

ETA: after pg 3 I realized that the question is flawed. Nobody can out shoot their rifle. You can however out shoot your optics.

example: I have iron sights (buis). I can shoot all 30rnds on a 11X17 paper at 100 yards from a bench (bench = sitting on a stool with both elbows on the the table.

Now with a decent optic, I could easily 2moa (2" group) a three round test.

Thus you don't out shoot your rifle, you out shoot your optic.

Posted: 6/5/2008 9:59:59 AM EDT

[#4]

I can outshoot any of my AR-15s but not my AR-50.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:00:24 AM EDT

[#5]

height=8

Quoted:
NO!

But I can outshoot my ammo.

Let's assume that both the rifle and your selected ammo make up one complete weapon system.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:00:50 AM EDT

[#6]

Not a chance.

Then again, I can't outdrive my Audi S4 Avant either!

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:02:00 AM EDT

[#7]

nope..

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:02:47 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What rifle?

Can you outshoot any of them? Tell your story.

I'm a teenager who learned to shoot recently and doesn't own a rifle yet. My story's pretty boring.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:03:13 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
NO!

But I can ~~outshoot~~ outrun my ammo.

fixt

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:03:44 AM EDT

[#10]

I don't keep rifles that don't shoot straight. I know from experience what my shooting abilities are. With a 3-9X scope on a bolt action, I can shoot close to 1 MOA @ 100 yards from a good bench rest. If I can't get a rifle to shoot under 2 MOA, I sell it.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:03:55 AM EDT

[#11]

Yes.

Not hard to prove either. Shoot a group with rifle A, and then shoot a group with an accurate rifle B. If your accurate rifle B group is tighter, then you outshot the accuracy of rifle A, provided you didn't throw the test with some overt variable.

Keep in mind you will have to shoot several groups of 5-7 shots to make the results statistically significant.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:04:54 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Keep in mind you will have to shoot several groups of 5-7 shots to make the results statistically significant.

Actually, you should probably be shooting 3 groups of 10-shot groups. Is that absolutely outstanding thread by Molon about the importance of 3-shot groups still posted in the AR forum? If so, it's a great read.

ETA: Yup - still there: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:05:34 AM EDT

[#13]

No.

Except for my Mini 14 and M44, though.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:06:13 AM EDT

[#14]

I can out shoot any of my rifles with any of my other rifles.

If I get on a firing line with one of my rifles in a lane, and me with another rifle in another lane. I shoot pretty well, and the other rifle just sits there by itself on the bench like a lazy ass and never shoots. Finally I say "you forfeit!" and then replace it with another rifle, and it does the same damn thing!

All of my rifles are lazy and won't shoot without me. So yep. I always out shoot my rifles.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:07:40 AM EDT

[#15]

Two (of my three) of my ARs will shoot 1.5 MOA if I get in a benchrest supported position. I've got one that has shot 1MOA on a bipod with decent ammo. If I got serious, locked them down and ran better ammo they would probably all be a hair better. But, for the most part, most of the of the time I'm shooting WOLF and the drills I shoot I care about speed as much as accuracy and it would be fine if they were 4MOA guns.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:16:22 AM EDT

[#16]

I shoot better than one of my ARs.

I just bought a 10/22 that might leave room for improvement on my part.

Here's the best group of the day. 5 shots of CCI velocitor off sandbags at 35-40 yards. There was a 5-15 mph crosswind from the left. I did not have a stool, so I was crouching behind the bench.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:17:19 AM EDT

[#17]

what on earth does that mean? outshoot your rifle?

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:22:27 AM EDT

[#18]

Not my CG-63 in 6.5x55mm.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:23:07 AM EDT

[#19]

height=8

Quoted:
what on earth does that mean? outshoot your rifle?

It means, for an extreme example, that if you shoot a three foot grouping at 100 yards with an AR-50, you do not outshoot your rifle.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:24:27 AM EDT

[#20]

I have two precision rifles I can't nor can anyone out shoot the rifle in my opinion. You can shoot at a level where true precision is a factor. If you shoot a rifle from a locked down rest and no wind it may not have consistent patterns and several things can make that happen.

The key is consistency.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:24:41 AM EDT

[#21]

I have a target rifle (TRG22) that I can consistently shoot very small groups with
I have a hunting rifle (remington 700) that I can shot reasonable groups with

So I must conclude that I can shoot better than the Remmy 700 will allow with its configuration, ammo and optics

I dont think I will get to the point where I can outshoot the TRG though

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:25:02 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
what on earth does that mean? outshoot your rifle?

If you topped the rifle with a 50X scope, mounted the rifle in a vise and shot it at 50 yards, what kind of group do you get? Let's say it's a 1" (~2MOA) group. Try another rifle, and let's say it shoots 4MOA from the vise. For this example, Rifle A = 2MOA and Rifle B = 4MOA.

Now you go out and shoot Rifle A from a 'regular' bench rest with a 'normal' 3-9X scope. Can you still shoot 2MOA with that rifle? The rifle is capable of shooting 2MOA, but you get 4MOA groups so the answer is 'No'. Chances are, you won't get sub-4MOA groups with Rifle B, either.

OTOH, let's say you can shoot 2MOA from a 'regular' bench rest with Rifle A. If this is the case, then you are obviously capable of outshooting Rifle B. You have the ability to shoot 2MOA, but Rifle B does not. You can outshoot Rifle B.

Does that help?

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:25:06 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
what on earth does that mean? outshoot your rifle?

It means, for an extreme example, that if you shoot a three foot grouping at 100 yards with an AR-50, you do not outshoot your rifle.

That's not what I asked. I said what does it mean to outshoot your rifle.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:25:31 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
I can out shoot any of my rifles with any of my other rifles.

If I get on a firing line with one of my rifles in a lane, and me with another rifle in another lane. I shoot pretty well, and the other rifle just sits there by itself on the bench like a lazy ass and never shoots. Finally I say "you forfeit!" and then replace it with another rifle, and it does the same damn thing!

All of my rifles are lazy and won't shoot without me. So yep. I always out shoot my rifles.

You're on a roll today!

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:26:31 AM EDT

[#25]

Depends upon the rifle.

My DCM Garand is within spec., and I can shoot much better than it can shoot. Not just from a bench, but prone with a sling and iron sights. The shooting I do with my AR proves it.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:26:48 AM EDT

[#26]

I spend a lot of money to make sure they all will out shoot me

Wow my first page 2 ownage!

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:29:33 AM EDT

[#27]

Hell, I can't even outshoot a shot-out M44 Mosin.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:32:01 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
what on earth does that mean? outshoot your rifle?

It is a misnomer. If you are a "good shot" with your rifle you will maximize it's potential and shoot the best possible group with it. The question should really be, if you were given an incredibly accurate rifle, would you be able to shoot a jagged hole with it over a decent distance.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:32:12 AM EDT

[#29]

Some of them, yes.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:33:09 AM EDT

[#30]

For those that answered yes, how much practice did it take? Would you have been better off buying a sub$300 rifle and spending the rest on ammo to get more practice until you got good enough to benefit from the purchase of a greater rifle? Or is that what you did?

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:33:16 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
what on earth does that mean? outshoot your rifle?

If you topped the rifle with a 50X scope, mounted the rifle in a vise and shot it at 50 yards, what kind of group do you get? Let's say it's a 1" (~2MOA) group. Try another rifle, and let's say it shoots 4MOA from the vise. For this example, Rifle A = 2MOA and Rifle B = 4MOA.

Now you go out and shoot Rifle A from a 'regular' bench rest with a 'normal' 3-9X scope. Can you still shoot 2MOA with that rifle? The rifle is capable of shooting 2MOA, but you get 4MOA groups so the answer is 'No'. Chances are, you won't get sub-4MOA groups with Rifle B, either.

OTOH, let's say you can shoot 2MOA from a 'regular' bench rest with Rifle A. If this is the case, then you are obviously capable of outshooting Rifle B. You have the ability to shoot 2MOA, but Rifle B does not. You can outshoot Rifle B.

Does that help?

I guess I always took it to mean, Rifle A is inherently capable of shooting 2 MOA. Can you take the rifle and "outshoot it", that is, shoot better than 2 MOA with it. I'm thinking, obviously you can't.

Frankly, I think the whole concept of "outshooting" your gun is idiotic. If you take a rifle that's mechanically, inherently capable of shooting 2 MOA and you shoot 2 MOA with it, you're a perfect shooter. You're not going to "outshoot" a less accurate rifle. You should get out of it exactly what it's capable of. Taking a 4 MOA rifle and shooting 4 MOA with it is the same accomplishment.

It's like saying if you can drive a Corvette 140 mph, you're "outdriving" a Honda.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:34:27 AM EDT

[#32]

My AK: Yes
My AR: No
My Bolt Actions: Hell No

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:35:46 AM EDT

[#33]

height=8

Quoted:
height=8

Quoted:
what on earth does that mean? outshoot your rifle?

If you topped the rifle with a 50X scope, mounted the rifle in a vise and shot it at 50 yards, what kind of group do you get? Let's say it's a 1" (~2MOA) group. Try another rifle, and let's say it shoots 4MOA from the vise. For this example, Rifle A = 2MOA and Rifle B = 4MOA.

Now you go out and shoot Rifle A from a 'regular' bench rest with a 'normal' 3-9X scope. Can you still shoot 2MOA with that rifle? The rifle is capable of shooting 2MOA, but you get 4MOA groups so the answer is 'No'. Chances are, you won't get sub-4MOA groups with Rifle B, either.

OTOH, let's say you can shoot 2MOA from a 'regular' bench rest with Rifle A. If this is the case, then you are obviously capable of outshooting Rifle B. You have the ability to shoot 2MOA, but Rifle B does not. You can outshoot Rifle B.

Does that help?

I guess I always took it to mean, Rifle A is inherently capable of shooting 2 MOA. Can you take the rifle and "outshoot it", that is, shoot better than 2 MOA with it. I'm thinking, obviously you can't.

Frankly, I think the whole concept of "outshooting" your gun is idiotic. If you take a rifle that's mechanically, inherently capable of shooting 2 MOA and you shoot 2 MOA with it, you're a perfect shooter. You're not going to "outshoot" a less accurate rifle. You should get out of it exactly what it's capable of. Taking a 4 MOA rifle and shooting 4 MOA with it is the same accomplishment.

It's like saying if you can drive a Corvette 140 mph, you're "outdriving" a Honda.

That's not an accurate statement. If you can shoot 2MOA with a 2MOA rifle, then it is fair to say that you can outshoot a 4MOA rifle.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:36:46 AM EDT

[#34]

I can't outshoot my Savage 110FCP.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:38:03 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
what on earth does that mean? outshoot your rifle?

If you topped the rifle with a 50X scope, mounted the rifle in a vise and shot it at 50 yards, what kind of group do you get? Let's say it's a 1" (~2MOA) group. Try another rifle, and let's say it shoots 4MOA from the vise. For this example, Rifle A = 2MOA and Rifle B = 4MOA.

Now you go out and shoot Rifle A from a 'regular' bench rest with a 'normal' 3-9X scope. Can you still shoot 2MOA with that rifle? The rifle is capable of shooting 2MOA, but you get 4MOA groups so the answer is 'No'. Chances are, you won't get sub-4MOA groups with Rifle B, either.

OTOH, let's say you can shoot 2MOA from a 'regular' bench rest with Rifle A. If this is the case, then you are obviously capable of outshooting Rifle B. You have the ability to shoot 2MOA, but Rifle B does not. You can outshoot Rifle B.

Does that help?

I guess I always took it to mean, Rifle A is inherently capable of shooting 2 MOA. Can you take the rifle and "outshoot it", that is, shoot better than 2 MOA with it. I'm thinking, obviously you can't.

Frankly, I think the whole concept of "outshooting" your gun is idiotic. If you take a rifle that's mechanically, inherently capable of shooting 2 MOA and you shoot 2 MOA with it, you're a perfect shooter. You're not going to "outshoot" a less accurate rifle. You should get out of it exactly what it's capable of. Taking a 4 MOA rifle and shooting 4 MOA with it is the same accomplishment.

It's like saying if you can drive a Corvette 140 mph, you're "outdriving" a Honda.

You'll never actually outshoot the rifle--because the rifle can only be what it is. You can, however, be capable of shooting better than the rifle will perform. In this case, you can outshoot your rifle.

If the man is capable of 1MOA and the rifle is only capable of 2MOA, the rifle becomes the limiting factor.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:39:30 AM EDT

[#36]

height=8

Quoted:
height=8

Quoted:
what on earth does that mean? outshoot your rifle?

If you topped the rifle with a 50X scope, mounted the rifle in a vise and shot it at 50 yards, what kind of group do you get? Let's say it's a 1" (~2MOA) group. Try another rifle, and let's say it shoots 4MOA from the vise. For this example, Rifle A = 2MOA and Rifle B = 4MOA.

Now you go out and shoot Rifle A from a 'regular' bench rest with a 'normal' 3-9X scope. Can you still shoot 2MOA with that rifle? The rifle is capable of shooting 2MOA, but you get 4MOA groups so the answer is 'No'. Chances are, you won't get sub-4MOA groups with Rifle B, either.

OTOH, let's say you can shoot 2MOA from a 'regular' bench rest with Rifle A. If this is the case, then you are obviously capable of outshooting Rifle B. You have the ability to shoot 2MOA, but Rifle B does not. You can outshoot Rifle B.

Does that help?

I guess I always took it to mean, Rifle A is inherently capable of shooting 2 MOA. Can you take the rifle and "outshoot it", that is, shoot better than 2 MOA with it. I'm thinking, obviously you can't.

Frankly, I think the whole concept of "outshooting" your gun is idiotic. If you take a rifle that's mechanically, inherently capable of shooting 2 MOA and you shoot 2 MOA with it, you're a perfect shooter. You're not going to "outshoot" a less accurate rifle. You should get out of it exactly what it's capable of. Taking a 4 MOA rifle and shooting 4 MOA with it is the same accomplishment.

It's like saying if you can drive a Corvette 140 mph, you're "outdriving" a Honda.

hootcapable of shooting better than the rifle will perform. In this case, you can outshoot your rifle.

If the man is capable of 1MOA and the rifle is only capable of 2MOA, the rifle becomes the limiting factor.

You basically said you cannot outshoot a rifle but you can outshoot a rifle. All you did was choose different wording and pretend it was a contradiction.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:40:46 AM EDT

[#37]

hahaha - don't think so. I have a TRG-42 in .338 and it is far more accurate than I am. I'm guessing there are many members who could outshoot me with this rifle.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:44:36 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
what on earth does that mean? outshoot your rifle?

If you topped the rifle with a 50X scope, mounted the rifle in a vise and shot it at 50 yards, what kind of group do you get? Let's say it's a 1" (~2MOA) group. Try another rifle, and let's say it shoots 4MOA from the vise. For this example, Rifle A = 2MOA and Rifle B = 4MOA.

Now you go out and shoot Rifle A from a 'regular' bench rest with a 'normal' 3-9X scope. Can you still shoot 2MOA with that rifle? The rifle is capable of shooting 2MOA, but you get 4MOA groups so the answer is 'No'. Chances are, you won't get sub-4MOA groups with Rifle B, either.

OTOH, let's say you can shoot 2MOA from a 'regular' bench rest with Rifle A. If this is the case, then you are obviously capable of outshooting Rifle B. You have the ability to shoot 2MOA, but Rifle B does not. You can outshoot Rifle B.

Does that help?

I guess I always took it to mean, Rifle A is inherently capable of shooting 2 MOA. Can you take the rifle and "outshoot it", that is, shoot better than 2 MOA with it. I'm thinking, obviously you can't.

Frankly, I think the whole concept of "outshooting" your gun is idiotic. If you take a rifle that's mechanically, inherently capable of shooting 2 MOA and you shoot 2 MOA with it, you're a perfect shooter. You're not going to "outshoot" a less accurate rifle. You should get out of it exactly what it's capable of. Taking a 4 MOA rifle and shooting 4 MOA with it is the same accomplishment.

It's like saying if you can drive a Corvette 140 mph, you're "outdriving" a Honda.

That's not an accurate statement. If you can shoot 2MOA with a 2MOA rifle, then it is fair to say that you can outshoot a 4MOA rifle.

"Outshoot" it how?? It's like saying if you can drive 140 mph in a Corvette, you can outdrive a Honda that can only go 100 mph.

What if you had just never shot a 2 MOA rifle? If you then shot a 4 MOA rifle and got 4 MOA groups? Are you still capable of outshooting it?

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:45:33 AM EDT

[#39]

I have a Ruger M77 MkII All Weather(Staineless Bbl and Zyrtel Stock) in .270 that has a Leupold 3x9x50 on top. I shoot handloads when I take it out for target shooting. I cannot outshoot it and never will be able to. For some reason, those guns are phenominally accurate for a production rifle. My best friend bought one in .280 Rem. It is the same way, even with a Burris Scope.
There is something about a highly tuned bolt gun with great glass and a full power round that makes you feel like you are holding a tool, not just a firearm. I once took that Ruger and cut a big ole doe's spine in two with it one day deer hunting. Needed to drop the deer in its tracks and damn if it didn't. The gun is better than I ever will be.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:45:49 AM EDT

[#40]

Don't get hung up on the strange verbiage.

Being able to outshoot a rifle generally means that a person can shoot a tighter group with a perfect rifle than he can with a random rifle. In other words, the limiting factor with regards to accuracy is NOT the shooter, it is the gun.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:45:49 AM EDT

[#41]

Depends on which of my rifles.

Most no... A few yes.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:46:43 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
what on earth does that mean? outshoot your rifle?

If you topped the rifle with a 50X scope, mounted the rifle in a vise and shot it at 50 yards, what kind of group do you get? Let's say it's a 1" (~2MOA) group. Try another rifle, and let's say it shoots 4MOA from the vise. For this example, Rifle A = 2MOA and Rifle B = 4MOA.

Now you go out and shoot Rifle A from a 'regular' bench rest with a 'normal' 3-9X scope. Can you still shoot 2MOA with that rifle? The rifle is capable of shooting 2MOA, but you get 4MOA groups so the answer is 'No'. Chances are, you won't get sub-4MOA groups with Rifle B, either.

OTOH, let's say you can shoot 2MOA from a 'regular' bench rest with Rifle A. If this is the case, then you are obviously capable of outshooting Rifle B. You have the ability to shoot 2MOA, but Rifle B does not. You can outshoot Rifle B.

Does that help?

I guess I always took it to mean, Rifle A is inherently capable of shooting 2 MOA. Can you take the rifle and "outshoot it", that is, shoot better than 2 MOA with it. I'm thinking, obviously you can't.

Frankly, I think the whole concept of "outshooting" your gun is idiotic. If you take a rifle that's mechanically, inherently capable of shooting 2 MOA and you shoot 2 MOA with it, you're a perfect shooter. You're not going to "outshoot" a less accurate rifle. You should get out of it exactly what it's capable of. Taking a 4 MOA rifle and shooting 4 MOA with it is the same accomplishment.

It's like saying if you can drive a Corvette 140 mph, you're "outdriving" a Honda.

You'll never actually outshoot the rifle--because the rifle can only be what it is. You can, however, be capable of shooting better than the rifle will perform. In this case, you can outshoot your rifle.

If the man is capable of 1MOA and the rifle is only capable of 2MOA, the rifle becomes the limiting factor.

You basically said you cannot outshoot a rifle but you can outshoot a rifle. All you did was choose different wording and pretend it was a contradiction.

It sounds more like a semantic issue.

"Outshooting the rifle" does not mean "I'm so badass that this AK that gets 3MOA off a machine rest will do 2MOA in my hands"--just "I'm a pretty good shot, and given a better rifle I would see a significant improvement in my group size".

This sounds stupidly obvious, but the way the math works, (btw does anyone remember it--it had alot of squaring involved IIRC) giving a good rifle to a bad shooter would result in infinitesimally small improvements in downrange results.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:47:07 AM EDT

[#43]

height=8

Quoted:
Don't get hung up on the strange verbiage.

Being able to outshoot a rifle generally means that a person can shoot a tighter group with a perfect rifle than he can with a random rifle. In other words, the limiting factor with regards to accuracy is NOT the shooter, it is the gun.

+1

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:48:35 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
what on earth does that mean? outshoot your rifle?

If you topped the rifle with a 50X scope, mounted the rifle in a vise and shot it at 50 yards, what kind of group do you get? Let's say it's a 1" (~2MOA) group. Try another rifle, and let's say it shoots 4MOA from the vise. For this example, Rifle A = 2MOA and Rifle B = 4MOA.

Now you go out and shoot Rifle A from a 'regular' bench rest with a 'normal' 3-9X scope. Can you still shoot 2MOA with that rifle? The rifle is capable of shooting 2MOA, but you get 4MOA groups so the answer is 'No'. Chances are, you won't get sub-4MOA groups with Rifle B, either.

OTOH, let's say you can shoot 2MOA from a 'regular' bench rest with Rifle A. If this is the case, then you are obviously capable of outshooting Rifle B. You have the ability to shoot 2MOA, but Rifle B does not. You can outshoot Rifle B.

Does that help?

I guess I always took it to mean, Rifle A is inherently capable of shooting 2 MOA. Can you take the rifle and "outshoot it", that is, shoot better than 2 MOA with it. I'm thinking, obviously you can't.

Frankly, I think the whole concept of "outshooting" your gun is idiotic. If you take a rifle that's mechanically, inherently capable of shooting 2 MOA and you shoot 2 MOA with it, you're a perfect shooter. You're not going to "outshoot" a less accurate rifle. You should get out of it exactly what it's capable of. Taking a 4 MOA rifle and shooting 4 MOA with it is the same accomplishment.

It's like saying if you can drive a Corvette 140 mph, you're "outdriving" a Honda.

That's not an accurate statement. If you can shoot 2MOA with a 2MOA rifle, then it is fair to say that you can outshoot a 4MOA rifle.

"Outshoot" it how?? It's like saying if you can drive 140 mph in a Corvette, you can outdrive a Honda that can only go 100 mph.

What if you had just never shot a 2 MOA rifle? If you then shot a 4 MOA rifle and got 4 MOA groups? Are you still capable of outshooting it?

No, it is like saying that you are capable of handling a Corvette on a racetrack and are turning in great laps, then someone hands you the keys to a Corvair with bald tires, and try to replicate your times.

Can you do it? If you end up in a wall, you basically outdrove the Corvair. In other words, your tool is inferior, and can't properly match your driving skills.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:48:37 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
You'll never actually outshoot the rifle--because the rifle can only be what it is. You can, however, be capable of shooting better than the rifle will perform. In this case, you can outshoot your rifle.

If the man is capable of 1MOA and the rifle is only capable of 2MOA, the rifle becomes the limiting factor.

The first part is obviously true. That's why I think it's ridiculous to say you can or can't outshoot your gun. It's just nonsensical.

And if you put your rifle in a vise and it shoots 2 MOA, and you then shoot 2 MOA groups with it, you're right I'd say you're being limited by the rifle. But I don't see how it has anything to do with what size groups you shoot with any other rifle. You're meeting the limits the rifle is capable of, and a more inherently accurate rifle would net you better groups.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:50:30 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
For those that answered yes, how much practice did it take? Would you have been better off buying a sub$300 rifle and spending the rest on ammo to get more practice until you got good enough to benefit from the purchase of a greater rifle? Or is that what you did?

You will never get good enough until you get enough practice. If cash holds you up from practice then thats a deal breaker EVERYTIME.
Skill trumps gear 99% of the time.
You should master the each level before moving on. BB,Pellet,.22 ect...all have a place in bringing a person skill level closer to the rifles edge.

Ive been drinking so if this doenst make sence my fault

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:52:40 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
For those that answered yes, how much practice did it take? Would you have been better off buying a sub$300 rifle and spending the rest on ammo to get more practice until you got good enough to benefit from the purchase of a greater rifle? Or is that what you did?

You will never get good enough until you get enough practice. If cash holds you up from practice then thats a deal breaker EVERYTIME.
Skill trumps gear 99% of the time.
You should master the each level before moving on. BB,Pellet,.22 ect...all have a place in bringing a person skill level closer to the rifles edge.

Ive been drinking so if this doenst make sence my fault

+1

I'm sure most accurate shooters started out on guns with less than stellar accuracy. I know I did.

Posted: 6/5/2008 10:52:46 AM EDT

[#48]

I would answer yes - in that I am very aware that I can shoot far better groups (bench and offhand) with one rifle over another. Likewise, crappy ammo will make a rifle capable of .75" bench groups shoot 2" patterns (at the same range).