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Link Posted: 6/5/2008 10:58:52 AM EDT
[#1]

Quoted:
No, it is like saying that you are capable of handling a Corvette on a racetrack and are turning in great laps, then someone hands you the keys to a Corvair with bald tires, and try to replicate your times.

Can you do it?  If you end up in a wall, you basically outdrove the Corvair.  In other words, your tool is inferior, and can't properly match your driving skills.


I don't think your reading my posts.  You're talking apples to oranges.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 10:59:22 AM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 11:00:18 AM EDT
[#3]
No one can ever outshoot their rifle.

The total dispersion of shots is due to several sources of variation: Shot-to-shot variation in bullet weight and powder charge, the variation caused by the inherent accuracy of the barrel, and the variation induced by the operator, to name a few. Since no one can totally eliminate all the shot-to-shot variation in how they hold the rifle and squeeze the trigger, you (the shooter) will ALWAYS be adding at least a small amount of dispersion to your groups.

It's all very simple when you look at it logically.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 11:09:08 AM EDT
[#4]
tag for later...good thread
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 11:34:31 AM EDT
[#5]
On occasion, I have borrowed other people's rifles, and shot those rifles better than I can shoot with my own rifles.  For example, I borrowed an SSG and shot WAY more accurately than with my Savage 10FP.  Same shooter, same ammo, same day, same everything except the rifle.  As for speed, I went to a carbine class and got to shoot other people's carbines.  This time shooting for speed instead of accuracy (on a 10" plate at 100 yards), I was much faster with their ACOGs and Aimpoints than with my irons.  So, technically, the difference was the sights, not the rifle, but the sights are part of the rifle, no?  (I just ordered an Aimpoint.)
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 11:40:17 AM EDT
[#6]
I guess this is a philosophical question for some.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 11:50:59 AM EDT
[#7]
Not one person here can out shoot their rifle, myself included.  Now Carlos Hathcock, well that may be a different tune
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 11:54:53 AM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
what on earth does that mean?  outshoot your rifle?


If you topped the rifle with a 50X scope, mounted the rifle in a vise and shot it at 50 yards, what kind of group do you get?  Let's say it's a 1" (~2MOA) group.  Try another rifle, and let's say it shoots 4MOA from the vise.  For this example, Rifle A = 2MOA and Rifle B = 4MOA.

Now you go out and shoot Rifle A from a 'regular' bench rest with a 'normal' 3-9X scope.  Can you still shoot 2MOA with that rifle?  The rifle is capable of shooting 2MOA, but you get 4MOA groups so the answer is 'No'.  Chances are, you won't get sub-4MOA groups with Rifle B, either.

OTOH, let's say you can shoot 2MOA from a 'regular' bench rest with Rifle A.  If this is the case, then you are obviously capable of outshooting Rifle B.  You have the ability to shoot 2MOA, but Rifle B does not.  You can outshoot Rifle B.

Does that help?


I guess I always took it to mean, Rifle A is inherently capable of shooting 2 MOA.  Can you take the rifle and "outshoot it", that is, shoot better than 2 MOA with it.  I'm thinking, obviously you can't.  

Frankly, I think the whole concept of "outshooting" your gun is idiotic.  If you take a rifle that's mechanically, inherently capable of shooting 2 MOA and you shoot 2 MOA with it, you're a perfect shooter.  You're not going to "outshoot" a less accurate rifle.  You should get out of it exactly what it's capable of.  Taking a 4 MOA rifle and shooting 4 MOA with it is the same accomplishment.

It's like saying if you can drive a Corvette 140 mph, you're "outdriving" a Honda.



wow you all are over-analyzing this.

here's the question:

is your weapon the limiting factor, or is your skill the limiting factor.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 12:12:19 PM EDT
[#9]
My rimfires have taught me that I can outshoot most of my rifles except for a chosen few.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 12:16:53 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 12:28:21 PM EDT
[#11]

I can outshoot my Mini 14 very easily
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 12:30:48 PM EDT
[#12]
If the rifle/load combo is supposed to be considered a single unit, then anyone who has seen improvement in their groups with different loads has demonstrated their ability to shoot the rifle right up to it's inherent limitations.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 12:36:46 PM EDT
[#13]

Quoted:
I can outshoot my husband with the rifle he built for me.  Does that count?


Oh Heck Yes!
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 12:44:35 PM EDT
[#14]
Yep, I can shoot better than my mosin-nagants and mini-14. I had a model 700 in 30.06 that threw rounds all over the place until it was re-barreled. Generally speaking though any gun shoots better than me. Old eyes and arthritis will do that.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 12:50:42 PM EDT
[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I guess I always took it to mean, Rifle A is inherently capable of shooting 2 MOA.  Can you take the rifle and "outshoot it", that is, shoot better than 2 MOA with it.  I'm thinking, obviously you can't.  

Frankly, I think the whole concept of "outshooting" your gun is idiotic.  If you take a rifle that's mechanically, inherently capable of shooting 2 MOA and you shoot 2 MOA with it, you're a perfect shooter.  You're not going to "outshoot" a less accurate rifle.  You should get out of it exactly what it's capable of.  Taking a 4 MOA rifle and shooting 4 MOA with it is the same accomplishment.

It's like saying if you can drive a Corvette 140 mph, you're "outdriving" a Honda.



wow you all are over-analyzing this.

here's the question:

is your weapon the limiting factor, or is your skill the limiting factor.


I understand.  I think it's something I've always heard people say and it never made any sense to me.  So I'm really not trying to over-analyze so much as trying to make the point that the very idea that could "outshoot" a gun is nonsense.  There must be a better term to use.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 1:00:02 PM EDT
[#16]
Nope, I certainly can't.  Most people can't.  The man is usually the limiting factor.  A rifle will never shoot the same out of a machine rest or off of a bench as it would if fired by a man from non-supported field positions.  

It is pointless to use a rest or other support for zeroing your rifle if you plan on shooting it in non-supported field positions; the point of impact will change.  Zero the rifle from the same position you plan on using when shooting in the field.  
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 1:03:42 PM EDT
[#17]

Quoted:
I shoot better than one of my ARs.

I just bought a 10/22 that might leave room for improvement on my part.

Here's the best group of the day. 5 shots of CCI velocitor off sandbags at 35-40 yards. There was a 5-15 mph crosswind from the left. I did not have a stool, so I was crouching behind the bench.
img.photobucket.com/albums/v138/Bloencustoms/SANY0010-1.jpg


I'd be more impressed if they were in the red
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 1:06:05 PM EDT
[#18]

 I know that a machine rest can outshoot me any time.

 The one thing that I can say is that my reloads (.300 win) are better than any factory loads in the same rifle.

 That's the only "better" thing I can do when it comes down to it.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 1:17:27 PM EDT
[#19]
I can out shoot my shotgun. Does that count?
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 1:18:23 PM EDT
[#20]
I have a couple of rifles that I can shoot consistent groups of 3/8" with, given ideal conditions.  I have never shot a group any smaller than that, so 3/8" seems to be the limit of my ability.  I definitely am NOT outshooting those rifles.  I have several other rifles that will not group close to the 3/8" that I seem to be capable of shooting.  I would say I can "outshoot" those rifles.  

One of the rifles I had that would shoot 3/8" groups was a Whitworth Mauser in 375 H&H that I sold when I first started having shoulder problems.  Should have never sold it.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 1:19:21 PM EDT
[#21]
I have a few that absolutely are better than I am off a bench.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 2:46:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Skill is ALWAYS the limiting factor..   Getting the most out of your weapon which translates to hitting your target regardless of its inherent accuracy is the only thing which matters.....    That is why Carlos didn't need a Sub MOA rifle to make long range kills..
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 2:51:03 PM EDT
[#23]
That is a silly question.

Do you suppose that I own one rifle, or that all of them are equally as accurate.

I have a Mini, and a few AK's.  they are not capable of the accuracy that my AR nor my $500 10/22 is.

Link Posted: 6/5/2008 2:54:51 PM EDT
[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I've seen a lot of people spend a lot of money on insanely accurate rifles, and it brings a question to mind:
Can you outshoot your rifle? Or rather, have you become so precise with shooting that the inaccuracy of your rifle is a real factor yet?


I have hundreds of hours of professional weapons training. I train regularly alongside phenomenal shooters and thus have an accurate understanding of my shooting skill.

I am well above average in the marksmanship department.

...and I have yet to encounter a situation where I was not the weakest link in the chain of weapon, ammo, and shooter, ESPECIALLY in dynamic shooting drills designed to replicate/approximate shooting under the stress and conditions of a gunfight.

That may not make my internet penis seem huge, but it's the God's-honest truth.

Now there are certainly some people out there who are not the weakest link in the chain of weapon, ammo, and shooter....but in all truth there ain't many of them.


Well, yes, in any type of dynamic or tactical shooting, that's true, but good Highpower riflemen can often outshoot a rifle from a solid slow fire position like prone with a sling. In fact, that skill is well within the reach of your typical rifleman if he aplies himself.

The 600 yard target has a 1 moa X ring and 2 moa 10 ring, 3 moa 9 ring and so on. There are plenty of rifles that can't do better than 3 moa or 4 moa, even at 100 yards, let alone 600.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 3:27:03 PM EDT
[#25]
I owned two CZ bolt action rifles that I could hold much, much more accurately than they shot. One was 17hmr, and the other was a .223 varmit with single set trigger. Both were turd throwers.

It both cases, my accuracy potential was much better than the rifles. My deviation on target was smaller than what they were able to deliver. I know this because I could often see the bullet impact on a spot other than the crosshairs.

Making it into a philosophical argument is silly. A truely great rifle can be capable of more accuracy than I can accomplish, but I have shot many rifles that did not achieve my level of ability.
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