Quoted: is that all you do is ask why? why dont you tell us.

Because he will be banned if his says what he is hinting at.

And he is wrong.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Massive corruption.  No tradition of engineering and research in the physical sciences.  A relatively uneducated population.  Too many hours of UNIVISION variety shows.     OK.  Why? Boarders are arbitrary creations.  Why is the complete opposite state of affairs true north of Mexico? Mexico has never had the rule of law, and rights in property. Both are creations of the state. While the border may be arbitrary, the legal systems in our nation and Mexico are vastly different.

We didn't have the rule of law and property rights until we saw the need for them.  Why can they not see the need for them?

Quoted: Quoted: Massive corruption.  No tradition of engineering and research in the physical sciences.  A relatively uneducated population.  Too many hours of UNIVISION variety shows.     OK.  Why? Boarders are arbitrary creations.  Why is the complete opposite state of affairs true north of Mexico?

Colonial America was founded by English, French, Germans, and Dutch, all of which had such traditions of science, industry and agricultural development.  More recently, America has gained Japanese, Indian, Chinese and other immigrants who are educated and highly motivated by our upward mobility.  They can come here and see that in one generation, their children can become engineers, lawyers, accountants, scientists, etc.  Mexico has no such traditions and no such influx of talent.  Corruption and the exodus of talent perpetuates their problems.

Also, we have a variety of things to watch other than UNIVISION.  "Dirty Jobs" and "Deadliest Catch" on the Discovery Channel serve to motivate young Americans to go to college.

Quoted: Quoted: is that all you do is ask why? why dont you tell us. Because he will be banned if his says what he is hinting at. And he is wrong.

If I said what I am hinting at, it would be misunderstood as being about all people of certain groups, and not simply a statement about averages.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Massive corruption.  No tradition of engineering and research in the physical sciences.  A relatively uneducated population.  Too many hours of UNIVISION variety shows.     OK.  Why? Boarders are arbitrary creations.  Why is the complete opposite state of affairs true north of Mexico? Mexico has never had the rule of law, and rights in property. Both are creations of the state. While the border may be arbitrary, the legal systems in our nation and Mexico are vastly different. We didn't have the rule of law and property rights until we saw the need for them.  Why can they not see the need for them?

Your grasp of history is abysmal. The American colonies had the rule of law and legal respect for rights in property from day one. Mexico descends from an entirely different legal system. Perhaps you should study the difference between the Roman legal system, and its progenitors, and the English legal system?

Of course, in your benighted worldview, race conquers all.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Massive corruption.  No tradition of engineering and research in the physical sciences.  A relatively uneducated population.  Too many hours of UNIVISION variety shows.     OK.  Why? Boarders are arbitrary creations.  Why is the complete opposite state of affairs true north of Mexico? Colonial America was founded by English, French, Germans, and Dutch, all of which had such traditions of science, industry and agricultural development.  More recently, America has gained Japanese, Indian, Chinese and other immigrants who are educated and highly motivated by our upward mobility.  They can come here and see that in one generation, their children can become engineers, lawyers, accountants, scientists, etc.  Mexico has no such traditions and no such influx of talent.  Corruption and the exodus of talent perpetuates their problems.

It's almost funny.

OK.  Why did England, France, Germany and Holland develop traditions of science, industry and agriculture which they brought here, which in turn attract bright minds from across the globe to the civilization they created, while Mexico developed no such traditions?

Mexico is a poor third world country for the same reason other poor third world countries are such.....corruption, spiritual and moral depravity, and the absence of good will among society.

Any questions?

Quoted: Your grasp of history is abysmal. The American colonies had the rule of law and legal respect for rights in property from day one. Mexico descends from an entirely different legal system. Perhaps you should study the difference between the Roman legal system, and its progenitors, and the English legal system? Of course, in your benighted worldview, race conquers all.

Calm down.  Don't get emotional.

I was asking why the rule of law and property developed in the West to begin with.  Obviously they existed in Europe before the colonization of America.

They did not develop in Indian civilizations though.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Massive corruption.  No tradition of engineering and research in the physical sciences.  A relatively uneducated population.  Too many hours of UNIVISION variety shows.     OK.  Why? Boarders are arbitrary creations.  Why is the complete opposite state of affairs true north of Mexico? Colonial America was founded by English, French, Germans, and Dutch, all of which had such traditions of science, industry and agricultural development.  More recently, America has gained Japanese, Indian, Chinese and other immigrants who are educated and highly motivated by our upward mobility.  They can come here and see that in one generation, their children can become engineers, lawyers, accountants, scientists, etc.  Mexico has no such traditions and no such influx of talent.  Corruption and the exodus of talent perpetuates their problems. It's almost funny. OK.  Why did England, France, Germany and Holland develop traditions of science, industry and agriculture which they brought here, which in turn attract bright minds from across the globe to the civilization they created, while Mexico developed no such traditions?

For one thing, there is neither the incentive nor the ability to create such traditions with a massively corrupt upper class and a hopeless lower class.  No incentive to create the sources of upward mobility, so no means to achieve it.  

I missed the funny part.  Are you sitting at your keyboard, laughing away at my ignorance of your vastly superior world view?

Read the book "Guns, Germs, and Steel"

www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393317552/sr=8-1/qid=1143603057/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-6633874-9597727?%5Fencoding=UTF8

It has the best explanation.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Massive corruption.  No tradition of engineering and research in the physical sciences.  A relatively uneducated population.  Too many hours of UNIVISION variety shows.     OK.  Why? Boarders are arbitrary creations.  Why is the complete opposite state of affairs true north of Mexico? Colonial America was founded by English, French, Germans, and Dutch, all of which had such traditions of science, industry and agricultural development.  More recently, America has gained Japanese, Indian, Chinese and other immigrants who are educated and highly motivated by our upward mobility.  They can come here and see that in one generation, their children can become engineers, lawyers, accountants, scientists, etc.  Mexico has no such traditions and no such influx of talent.  Corruption and the exodus of talent perpetuates their problems. It's almost funny. OK.  Why did England, France, Germany and Holland develop traditions of science, industry and agriculture which they brought here, which in turn attract bright minds from across the globe to the civilization they created, while Mexico developed no such traditions?

Because the Spaniards found mountains of gold and silver in their colonies. You would note, if you ever actually read history, that the nations you cite found no such easy money in their colonies. Why develop science, industry, and agriculture when you can just steal the natives' gold?

Oh, BTW, when Spain colonized the New World, they, not England, France, or Holland (which was at that time a Spanish colony) were the richest and most powerful European nation.

I guess I am hijacking.

Maybe most of them will just magically change if they are here long enough...

Quoted: Because the Spaniards found mountains of gold and silver in their colonies. You would note, if you ever actually read history, that the nations you cite found no such easy money in their colonies. Why develop science, industry, and agriculture when you can just steal the natives' gold?

Yup.  It's the White man's fault...

Quoted: Quoted: Because the Spaniards found mountains of gold and silver in their colonies. You would note, if you ever actually read history, that the nations you cite found no such easy money in their colonies. Why develop science, industry, and agriculture when you can just steal the natives' gold? Yup.  It's the White man's fault...

It is not the white man's fault.  If ANY RACE had invaded that country with the same level of greed that the Spanish did, greed would have become part of the cultural mindset just as easily.

No, before the spanish, their society was not idyllic.  The natives cut the hearts out of 20,000 prisoners of war in a single day.

Quoted: Quoted: Because the Spaniards found mountains of gold and silver in their colonies. You would note, if you ever actually read history, that the nations you cite found no such easy money in their colonies. Why develop science, industry, and agriculture when you can just steal the natives' gold? Yup.  It's the White man's fault...

Just admit you know nothing about the history and development of government in either the US or Mexico, and be done with it. Everyone with five functioning brain cells knows you are trying to say it is because Mexicans are racially inferior to us, and there is nothing that can be done to correct it.

You are a racist, who attempts to apply a thin veneer of poorly understood science to cover your baser instincts.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Because the Spaniards found mountains of gold and silver in their colonies. You would note, if you ever actually read history, that the nations you cite found no such easy money in their colonies. Why develop science, industry, and agriculture when you can just steal the natives' gold? Yup.  It's the White man's fault... Just admit you know nothing about the history and development of government in either the US or Mexico, and be done with it. Everyone with five functioning brain cells knows you are trying to say it is because Mexicans are racially inferior to us, and there is nothing that can be done to correct it. You are a racist, who attempts to apply a thin veneer of poorly understood science to cover your baser instincts.

The focus has up to this been on a negative facet of Mexican society.  A positive thing that can be pointed out is their emphasis on the importance of family, attributable to the influence of Catholicism.  Hispanic families in general are much more closely knit than many American families.  We could take some lessons from them in that area.

Quoted: Quoted: Because the Spaniards found mountains of gold and silver in their colonies. You would note, if you ever actually read history, that the nations you cite found no such easy money in their colonies. Why develop science, industry, and agriculture when you can just steal the natives' gold? Yup.  It's the White man's fault...

Wow, that flew way over your head.  He was saying that the Spanish conquerors got used to plucking wealth from an enslaved population.  The other nations mentioned, despite having slavery, were busy cutting down forests, plowing fields, drying fish, trapping beavers, setting up workshops, flying kites, etc.  They conquered by creating wealth and infrastructure, not stealing it (well, almost).  

Quoted: It is not the white man's fault.  If ANY RACE had invaded that country with the same level of greed that the Spanish did, greed would have become part of the cultural mindset just as easily. No, before the spanish, their society was not idyllic.  The natives cut the hearts out of 20,000 prisoners of war in a single day.

So, we should pity the poor Indians, since they were done so wrong by the Spanish, who had no redeeming qualities other than greed--no science, no technology.  It is amazing they were able to cross the Atlantic.

Were the early American colonists ever done wrong by anyone?  How did they respond?  I don't recall, because my knowledge of history is so poor.

Get a clue.  Nobody said that Spain lacked science, agriculture and industry.  The difference is that they came to conquer and enslave, sending wealth back to Spain.  The other colonists came to stay and transform the land around them, not just steal from the locals.

Quoted: Quoted: It is not the white man's fault.  If ANY RACE had invaded that country with the same level of greed that the Spanish did, greed would have become part of the cultural mindset just as easily. No, before the spanish, their society was not idyllic.  The natives cut the hearts out of 20,000 prisoners of war in a single day. So, we should pity the poor Indians, since they were done so wrong by the Spanish, who had no redeeming qualities other than greed--no science, no technology.  It is amazing they were able to cross the Atlantic. Were the early American colonists ever done wrong by anyone?  How did they respond?  I don't recall, because my knowledge of history is so poor.

The Spanish had a lot going for them at the time.  They ruled the seas and explored vast areas, and were the major power (until the destruction of the Spanish Armada and the English took the title).  However, the desire to fill the royal coffers motivated their exploration of the New World, and they had a major negative influence.

American Colonists started off with a great deal of idealism, particularly in the New England area.  That idealism remained strong for a long time, and gave our country more inherent nobility of purpose, as reflected in the drafting of the Constitution. The greatest evil,of course, was slavery, but we ultimately rid ourselves of that evil, again, because of the good people in our society, many of whom were Christians, both white and black; the abolitionists, the people who ran the underground railroad. Our Christian roots helped us keep on track for a long time.  We were not perfect. Greed got its foothold towards the end of the 1800's, during the rise of industrialism and monopolies, the gold rushes, etc.  

Quoted: Get a clue.  Nobody said that Spain lacked science, agriculture and industry.  The difference is that they came to conquer and enslave, sending wealth back to Spain.  The other colonists came to stay and transform the land around them, not just steal from the locals.

Stop wasting your effort. Zarathustra1 already knows it's because them lousy Mexicans are racially inferior. He will try to cite The Bell Curve as supporting his "scientific" beliefs, but its all just window dressing. He is an .

Almost every post he makes has racial undertones. If you don't believe me, do a search.

Quoted: Read the book "Guns, Germs, and Steel" www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393317552/sr=8-1/qid=1143603057/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-6633874-9597727?%5Fencoding=UTF8 It has the best explanation.

Half way through it... Interesting read.

 because they're ALL moving here helping the USA become a 3RD WORLD COUNTRY

Quoted: Stop wasting your effort. Zarathustra1 already knows its because them lousy Mexicans are racially inferior. He will try to cite The Bell Curve as supporting his "scientific" beliefs, but its all just window dressing. He is an . Almost every post he makes has racial undertones. If you don't believe me, do a search.

No I am not a Neo-Nazi, National Socialist or any other form of .

I find it ironic though that you would write that to me, all the while with a quote from H.L. Mencken in your sigline.  I am a big fan of Mencken, especially his writings on Nietzsche.

Here is an interesting, and ironic in your case, quote from H.L.:

The educated Negro of today is a failure, not because he meets insuperable difficulties in life, but because he is a Negro. His brain is not fitted for the higher forms of mental effort; his ideals, no matter how laboriously he is trained and sheltered, remain those of a clown.

Perhaps that what you believe I am saying about Mexicans in general.

My quick take:

The Mexicans inherited Spanish culture and added French ideas of political governance in the 1800s.   We always have an Anglo/North European political and economic culture, and the resulting focus on free trade, homesteads and the like is FAR better than the overbureaucratized, statist and rampantly corrupt tradition Latin American nations have inherited (except for Chile - which really is more like the US).   As say this as a Catholic of Italian descent who grew up in New Mexico- no racism or condescension to Spain or "hispanics" here.  

- The Spanish culture of goverment was based on centralized power. Remember, for centuries white people from Spain - NOT EVEN WHITE PEOPLE BORN IN AMERICA, but white people born in Spain ruled Latin America and everyone else basically was at best  second class, if not far worse.   This was done in order to ensure that the governors would be faithful to the crown.

- the Spanish culture of government also was merchatilist.   The colonies existed to enrich the Crown and country; therefore they must produce gold and goods as cheaply as possible for the motherland, and not trade with the evil foreigners lest they weaken the country.  I don't think you need to be an economic geniuis to know where that kind of a mentality will lead you.  

- the Spanish culture of government was even in the early years bureaucratized and corrupt.  Add to that the French-inspired theories of absolute democracy and "all-power-to-the-all-knowing-state" that became popular in Latin America in the 1800s, combined with modern day socialism (the dominant ideology), this creates a massive government which claims some sort of belief that it must do everything for everyone and puts its hand into almost every sector of society.   Frequently this overbureaucratization is simply an excuse for corruption.  

Some people have done surveys and found that it takes as many as 200 permits in some places to build a house.   The same thing is true in starting or running a business.  Clearing all the requirements and (as a result) paying off all the right bureaucrats all the time is something only the rich can do.   As a result, many of the the unconnected and non-super rich have to subsist in an informal economy.  

- assumptions of cultural superiority.  Very few people want to change the system, and if they do they look to utopian models like Marxism which quickly become a fanatical nightmare.   They're just better than the gringos up north, and society will run somehow.

Anyway, just 2 of my centavos.  

Quoted: My quick take: The Mexicans inherited Spanish culture and added French ideas of political governance in the 1800s.   We always have an Anglo/North European political and economic culture, and the resulting focus on free trade, homesteads and the like is FAR better than the overbureaucratized, statist and rampantly corrupt tradition Latin American nations have inherited (except for Chile - which really is more like the US).   As say this as a Catholic of Italian descent who grew up in New Mexico- no racism or condescension to Spain or "hispanics" here.   - The Spanish culture of goverment was based on centralized power. Remember, for centuries white people from Spain - NOT EVEN WHITE PEOPLE BORN IN AMERICA, but white people born in Spain ruled Latin America and everyone else basically was at best  second class, if not far worse.   This was done in order to ensure that the governors would be faithful to the crown. - the Spanish culture of government also was merchatilist.   The colonies existed to enrich the Crown and country; therefore they must produce gold and goods as cheaply as possible for the motherland, and not trade with the evil foreigners lest they weaken the country.  I don't think you need to be an economic geniuis to know where that kind of a mentality will lead you.   - the Spanish culture of government was even in the early years bureaucratized and corrupt.  Add to that the French-inspired theories of absolute democracy and "all-power-to-the-all-knowing-state" that became popular in Latin America in the 1800s, combined with modern day socialism (the dominant ideology), this creates a massive government which claims some sort of belief that it must do everything for everyone and puts its hand into almost every sector of society.   Frequently this overbureaucratization is simply an excuse for corruption.   Some people have done surveys and found that it takes as many as 200 permits in some places to build a house.   The same thing is true in starting or running a business.  Clearing all the requirements and (as a result) paying off all the right bureaucrats all the time is something only the rich can do.   As a result, many of the the unconnected and non-super rich have to subsist in an informal economy.   - assumptions of cultural superiority.  Very few people want to change the system, and if they do they look to utopian models like Marxism which quickly become a fanatical nightmare.   They're just better than the gringos up north, and society will run somehow. Anyway, just 2 of my centavos.

Good post.

I agree with you, as I agree with the majority of the responses so far.

I was simply asking the larger question of why things are as they are.  

Who knows, it is a very complex question.

Quoted: Read the book "Guns, Germs, and Steel" www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393317552/sr=8-1/qid=1143603057/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-6633874-9597727?%5Fencoding=UTF8 It has the best explanation.

Good book.  But I think a better one, not only regarding Cortez and the conquest of Mexico but also Western civilization against everyone else, might be "Carnage and Culture" by Victor Davis Hanson.  Incidentally, he has a book about illegal immigration called "Mexifornia."  He owns a family farm in central California and he's pissed.

Quoted: Quoted: Stop wasting your effort. Zarathustra1 already knows its because them lousy Mexicans are racially inferior. He will try to cite The Bell Curve as supporting his "scientific" beliefs, but its all just window dressing. He is an . Almost every post he makes has racial undertones. If you don't believe me, do a search. No I am not a Neo-Nazi, National Socialist or any other form of . I find it ironic though that you would write that to me, all the while with a quote from H.L. Mencken in your sigline.  I am a big fan of Mencken, especially his writings on Nietzsche. Here is an interesting, and ironic in your case, quote from H.L.: The educated Negro of today is a failure, not because he meets insuperable difficulties in life, but because he is a Negro. His brain is not fitted for the higher forms of mental effort; his ideals, no matter how laboriously he is trained and sheltered, remain those of a clown. Perhaps that what you believe I am saying about Mexicans in general.

You appear to suffer Mencken's racial vices without his literary virtues.

Quoted: You appear to suffer Mencken's racial vices without his literary virtues.

It's funny how ideas that have racial assumptions are not just simply ideas, they are moral vices.  

I guess Mencken and I are simply morally corrupt.  As an obvious fan of Nietzsche though, that tends to make me proud.  

I would much rather be Dionysian than Apollonian!

Sorry if I offended you PAEBR332.

Gute Nacht!

Quoted: OK.  Why did England, France, Germany and Holland develop traditions of science, industry and agriculture which they brought here, which in turn attract bright minds from across the globe to the civilization they created, while Mexico developed no such traditions?

Why didn't the Frenchies instill some of that good stuff when they ruled Mexico?

Why were the Germans able to pass down some pretty decent beer making skills, but none of their slavish devotion to authority and love of fine automobiles (well, there are about 20 millions volkswagen beatles in Mexico...)


I really don't know

I think the answer is pretty simple. Mexicans as a whole do not value liberty. Very few people do, even in our own country. Virtually the entire globe is morally opposed to the very concept. Mexico is hardly a unique situation. There are many countries that are resource rich, and yet are incredibly poor. The one unifying thread amongst all of these countries is an absence of cultural support for liberty.

Sure, the citizens would say they liked it, but they would be lying. Liberty means leaving people alone as long as they don't hurt anyone else, even if they are rich, and even if they offend your religion. Virtually no one really wants a system like that.

America lucked out because our founders supported that concept, but they lacked a solid moral foundation for the constitution. Our country is like the tallest skyscaper ever built, but built in a swamp. Because of this lack of a solid foundation (hint religion doesn't cut it, no religion has ever seriously promoted true liberty) so the country was unable to resist the altruism, and statism that are popular with our society (even most of the ones that claim to support freedom).

Quoted: Quoted: You appear to suffer Mencken's racial vices without his literary virtues. It's funny how ideas that have racial assumptions are not just simply ideas, they are moral vices.   I guess Mencken and I are simply morally corrupt.  As an obvious fan of Nietzsche though, that tends to make me proud.   I would much rather be Dionysian than Apollonian! Sorry if I offended you PAEBR332. Gute Nacht!

What offends me is the disengenuous way in which you try to cover your racism with a thin veneer of poorly understood reading. I also find it somewhat humorus that you deny you are an , but trip all over yourself in effusive praise of the favorite philiosopher of Hitler and modern s.

Back to your thesis that Mexico is a third world county due to it being full of racially inferior Mexicans. After all, let's stop beating around the bush. This is what you have been trying to say, but in such a way as to not get banned.

You seem to put great stock in The Bell Curve by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray. The authors found that East Asians had the highest IQ of any racial group. So, by your theory, all East Asian nations should be First World. Lets look at two sets of nations in East Asia that are racially identical, but politically and economicall very different and see if your theory that race trumps politics and economics holds true. Our two sets of nations will be China and Taiwan as one set, and North and South Korea for the other. Both study pairs consist of nations with identical racial makeups, but opposite political and economic systems.

North Korea has a per capita GDP (at purchasing power parity) of less than $1800. It suffers from widespread famine, lack of basic services , etc. By any objective measure, it is a Third World nation. South Korea, on the other hand, has a per capita GDP over 10 times higher ($20,300). South Korea entered the ranks of the first world within the past generation. But, you ask, how can that be? Both nations are populated by racially identical people. And this from the racial group with the hightest average IQ. Hmmmmmm...

China and Taiwan present a similar picture. China has purchasing power parity per capita GDP of $6200 (only $1400 at the official exchange rate). Taiwans per capita GDP is $26,700, over 4.5 times as high. Having just been to mainland China last month, I can tell you that outside of the cities, China remains very much Third World. Over 80% of the Chinese are still peasant farmers who do not own their land, and live on less than $1 per day. How comes there are no such peasants in Taiwan? After all, they are the same racially as most mainland Chinese.

Now, back to Mexico. Like North Korea and mainland China, it suffers from a backward political and economic system. Last year I spent a total of 10 weeks in Mexico. I talked with many Mexicans, and they all recognize that corruption and poor legal systems are holding their nation back. Unlike the US, they were not blessed with a genius group of founding fathers. They have suffered through a series of poor leaders, encumbered by a poorly developed legal system, poor educational system, and kleptocratic police. And yet, they are still not a Third World country, but a second world (developing nation) in which most people make well above the absolute poverty level that defines nations as being Third World. Those racially inferior Mexicans make about twice as much, per capita, as the far more intelligent race (according to Hernstein and Murray) that populates mainland China, and about 6 times what the average North Korean makes. Hmmmmm. Maybe race IS less important than political, economic and legal systems.

They are hindered by their culture.

Simple.
a) No birth control = exploding population.
b) Rampant political corruption = totally lopsided distribution of wealth.

Add the two.
Then look at the U.S. to see the final result.

because the US doesn't pay illegals enough.

Back in the 1970s, I made several trips down into the deep interior of Mexico.  One vignette stands out in my mind:

In a small village there was one tiny general store.  The ejido had only recieved electricity that very year.

That one store had one refrigerated case.  On the wall hung carcasses of goats, covered with flies and reeking to high heaven.  

I opened the one refigerated case in the store.  What was in there?

Coca Cola.

Mexico is largely a culture of youthful immediate gratification.  And of fatalism among the adults.

I both love and hate the place.  

Mexico is a mess but only the lowest, and oversimplified thought process thinks it is because of race.

I'm a nationialist, I dont want a wave of illegals undermining the border, language and culture of the USA.

Most of the those illegals happen to be Mexican, so there is where I focus my attention. Not because of their race.

It's people that turn this into a race issue that  undermine citizen led efforts on the border the most.

When an "idea" is race motivated you end up with a holocaust.

Yes, Mexico has all of those pluses and then some!  The problems are very deeply rooted however and it mostly has to do with the stratification of the classes in Mexican society.

Read some of their history and you will see that this problem goes back to the days of the conquistadores.

Until they are able to overcome their own biases and their own deeply rooted problems, we are going to have our problem of immigration with Mexico.  

Plus, the immigration is offcially sanctioned because they want to reverse the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

Quoted: Maybe race IS less important than political, economic and legal systems.

Those are good examples.  I never said race was the only factor though; you said I said that...  

If William Shockley or Albert Einstein had been raised in a padded cell, they would not have been the geniuses they were, just as it is not true ant any human can be as gifted as they were, so long as they study hard. Obviously environment plays a factor.  I simply don't rank it as high as you do, nor do I have an emotional need to do so...

I was simply asking where the political, economic and legal systems came from that we were talking about.

You say a people's culture is more important than their racial makeup, so I ask where their culture comes from.  Did it come from outside their perception of reality?  Was it give to them by an outside group, or did they form it?

May I ask if you are religious?  If so, then this discussion is rather like a square peg in a round hole.

Quoted: Quoted: Maybe race IS less important than political, economic and legal systems. Those are good examples.  I never said race was the only factor though; you said I said that...   Then give us your answer. So far, you have asked a lot of questions, but refuse to say why Mexico is the way it is. Given your many thinly veiled racists posts, it was rather easy to deduce that you blame race. If my assumption is incorrect, pray tell what you believe the root cause is? Don't dance around, just spit it out.   If William Shockley or Albert Einstein had been raised in a padded cell, they would not have been the geniuses they were, just as it is not true ant any human can be as gifted as they were, so long as they study hard. Obviously environment plays a factor.  I simply don't rank it as high as you do, nor do I have an emotional need to do so... I was simply asking where the political, economic and legal systems came from that we were talking about. You say a people's culture is more important than their racial makeup, so I ask where their culture comes from.  Did it come from outside their perception of reality?  Was it give to them by an outside group, or did they form it? Cultures develop over time and are largely a function of historical development. Similar cultural/legal systems have developed in vastly different nations, while racially similar places have, through historical divergence, developed vastly different cultures and legal systems. May I ask if you are religious?  If so, then this discussion is rather like a square peg in a round hole. And what role would religious beliefs play in this discussion? Sounds like another red herring argument.

A simple question: To what main factors do you attribute Mexico's problems?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Maybe race IS less important than political, economic and legal systems. Those are good examples.  I never said race was the only factor though; you said I said that...   Then give us your answer. So far, you have asked a lot of questions, but refuse to say why Mexico is the way it is. Given your many thinly veiled racists posts, it was rather easy to deduce that you blame race. If my assumption is incorrect, pray tell what you believe the root cause is? Don't dance around, just spit it out.   If William Shockley or Albert Einstein had been raised in a padded cell, they would not have been the geniuses they were, just as it is not true ant any human can be as gifted as they were, so long as they study hard. Obviously environment plays a factor.  I simply don't rank it as high as you do, nor do I have an emotional need to do so... I was simply asking where the political, economic and legal systems came from that we were talking about. You say a people's culture is more important than their racial makeup, so I ask where their culture comes from.  Did it come from outside their perception of reality?  Was it give to them by an outside group, or did they form it? Cultures develop over time and are largely a function of historical development. Similar cultural/legal systems have developed in vastly different nations, while racially similar places have, through historical divergence, developed vastly different cultures and legal systems. May I ask if you are religious?  If so, then this discussion is rather like a square peg in a round hole. And what role would religious beliefs play in this discussion? Sounds like another red herring argument. A simple question: To what main factors do you attribute Mexico's problems?

If you are a Christian, then obviously you would not believe an evolution-based explanation.

I don't know why Mexico has so many problems, that is why I asked.  I don't understand history, remember...

There seems to be a victim mentality put forth by the illegals, and for that matter, by many Americans.  They see themselves the victim of the evil gringo, the GOP or whatever class that iis better off.  And it's is not a yearning for liberty; it is a demand of entitlement.

Quoted: If you are a Christian, then obviously you would not believe an evolution-based explanation. I don't know why Mexico has so many problems, that is why I asked.

Please explain how this "evolution-based explanation" differs from a "Mexicans are racially inferior" explanation. You should also explain the correlation between intelligence, race, and first world status of nations. While doing so, please make certain to explain which statistical test for significance you performed, as well as the alpha and beta levels selected. Furthermore, please explain how your samples were chosen in order to ensure a statistically significant sample size.

Try to use small words. Being that I am a beetle-browed simpleton, I probably couldn't understand any high-falutin' terminology. I had that problem while working on my Ph.D. Fortunately, the Big Ten school where I studied had an affirmative action program for benighted zealots like myself. Or maybe they just gave me a degree 'cause they felt sorry for me?

Mexico could  be an extremely wealthy nation.  they have arable land, tropical climate, oil and minerals.

Mexico has always  had a problem with overpopulation.  to avoid making a religious or moral judgement there, I am refering to overpopulation as being when the arable land cannot support the living population with the implementation of the technology at hand.  

So why is the technology of the developed nations not implimented to make supply meet demand?  Corruption.

The Aztecs fought so-called "flowery wars" for the sole purpose of capturing enemy soldiers (as compared to killing them in battle), and to greater or lesser degree (according to many anthropologists) ceremonially killing and eating them.

The peoples of Europe have had at least 1000 years of rule of law.  It is entrenched in our language, customs and culture.

Since prehistory,  the peoples of Mexico as a whole have been peoples of warlords and theocracy, and not of laws.

Didya know that mexico doesn't have a welfare system???

Quoted: Quoted: If you are a Christian, then obviously you would not believe an evolution-based explanation. I don't know why Mexico has so many problems, that is why I asked. Please explain how this "evolution-based explanation" differs from a "Mexicans are racially inferior" explanation. You should also explain the correlation between intelligence, race, and first world status of nations. While doing so, please make certain to explain which statistical test for significance you performed, as well as the alpha and beta levels selected. Furthermore, please explain how your samples were chosen in order to ensure a statistically significant sample size. Try to use small words. Being that I am a beetle-browed simpleton, I probably couldn't understand any high-falutin' terminology. I had that problem while working on my Ph.D. Fortunately, the Big Ten school where I studied had an affirmative action program for benighted zealots like myself. Or maybe they just gave me a degree 'cause they felt sorry for me?

That's ok.  You are getting a bit emotional on the issue.  Racism is painful to you, so you equate it to moral depravity instead of just another idea you disagree with.  Many people are like that today.

IQ and the Wealth of Nations is a good start.

But you don't agree with the many studies on the subject though; that is fine.  

And don't feel bad, colleges are so liberal these days, I had a hard time understanding them too...

Quoted: Since Nafta, Mexico has a net trade surplus with the United States, before Nafta the United States had a  surplus of exports to Mexico.  The net value of both countries trade has increased since Nafta.

Having a trade Surplus is a bad thing.

That means your money is lesser valued and thus forth, others will stick to their's to buy your 'cheaper' crap.

I'm going to take a somewhat intelectual stab at the "cause".

Anciently, the indigenous civilizations of the Mexican region had developed pretty far in some ways.  They'd developed good systems of math, agricultural engineering, calenders, some medicine, urban cities, etc.  

They also engaged in serious political maneuvering.  If I understand correctly, the Aztecs ruled through some fairly complex political alliances.

There were some ugly aspects too, of course, such as mass human sacrifice.

Then the Spaniards arrived.  I've got to get back to work, so if somebody wants to pick it up from there, feel free.

Quoted: That's ok.  You are getting a bit emotional on the issue.  Racism is painful to you, so you equate it to moral depravity instead of just another idea you disagree with.  Many people are like that today. IQ and the Wealth of Nations is a good start. But you don't agree with the many studies on the subject though; that is fine.   <snip>

What I find is that Lynn and Vanhanen ignored too many confounding effects and focused too narrowly on IQ. Given that I teach statistical methods, it is not an uncommon problem I see with most sociological studies. The correlations they found between both wealth and GDP were not overly strong. They also missed the impact of autocorrelation. Finally, since gestational and early childhood nutrition also plays a role in IQ, is it that nations get rich  due to high IQs, or that rich nations can afford the good nutrition that assists in IQ development? Looking at Lynn and Vanhanen's data, the lower half of the nations studied suffer an inordinate prevalence of famines. Is it because they have low IQs that famine strikes? Or does the prevalence of famine lower IQs? Funadmentally, all studies of IQ versus wealth suffer from the old correlation-does-not-equal-causation conundrum. You have taken a leap of faith that IQ is destiny. You then make the additional leap that race controls IQ. I have yet to read data that supports either thesis very strongly.

There is a much stronger correlation between free market economic systems and wealth. If you look at Lynn and Vanhanen's data again, you will find that ALL the top quintile economies are free markets, while all the lower quintile economies are not. Barbados has an average IQ of 78, but a per capita GDP of $17,300. China with its average IQ of 100, has a $6300 per capita GDP. During the past decade, China's average IQ did not change, but its embrace of free market economics has made it the economic miracle of the present. Once again, North and South Korea, with virtually identical IQs (we must assume), and an almost 12 times difference in per capita GDP. Cuba and the Phillipines have virtually identical IQs (86 and 85), but the Phillipines has double the per capita GDP of Cuba.

Sorry to disrupt your racist musing with cold, hard facts.