User Panel
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Posted: 8/16/2001 5:33:55 AM EDT
[#1]
No. Neither is any other addiction.
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Posted: 8/16/2001 5:50:28 AM EDT
[#2]
I have been told by Dr.'s and substance abuse
counselors that alcoholism is indeed, a disease. From what I understand, that is the reason why health insurance programs will pay for out or in patient treatment for alcoholism, but not for the same kind of treatment for nicatine addiction. Furthermore, during treatment (piss on it, it was me - outpatient) I was told that once one had become an alcoholic, it was a disease that that individual would carry with them to their death bed. Not saying that a person has to continue drinking for their entire life, just that even if they manage to stay "clean" the best they'll ever be again is a "clean" alcoholic. Let me try to get this topic emailed to DKProf, he could give a better medical description than I. |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 5:59:32 AM EDT
[#3]
Emailed DK-Prof, let's see if we can get a
real medical opinion on this one..... |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:10:23 AM EDT
[#4]
This is along the same lines as considering obesity a disease. Nothing makes a 350 pound person eat 6 bigmacs 3 lg fries and a diet coke!!! They choose to do this. And all the people who say it is a condition and they cant help it are full of shit. It is will power, nothing else. Weak people will have problems. I had used drugs before, even the really "addictive" cocaine, and it is all bullshit! If you are a strong person you can just not want it. I drink alchohol, but it isnt something I crave or have to have. So it is hard for me to feel sorry for all the people with thier addictions.
[beer] thought it would be appropriate! |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:11:42 AM EDT
[#5]
NO! It is an excuse for weak people.
Referring to what a3kid said, isn't it ridiculous that insurance will pay for someone to stop drinking, but won't pay for someone to stop smoking, which would help their costs, less smokers and all that. |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:13:31 AM EDT
[#6]
I know a friend that took every drug made-quit them cold turkey-he made the choice-there was no 'disease' and he never went to treatment.
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:15:00 AM EDT
[#7]
My name is Kantuc2, I am an alcoholic. By the grace of the God of my understanding I have not ingested the beverage alcohol since May 3, 1975 at 8:00 pm. I have a disease that has effected my body chemistry, my thinking and my physical well being. If I were to take another drink today with in six months I would be right back were I was in 1975. My disease is progressive and it is terminal. How I got it is not important, I have it and I must deal with it everyday if I am to stay sober. If you want a crude comparison to a "disease" that everybody recognizes as a "disease" compare it to diabetes. There is no germ for diabetes, and you don't deal with diabetes using "will power". I buried a guy last week who used "will power" to control his drinking. He drowned in his own vomit after he fell asleep drunk.
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:15:22 AM EDT
[#8]
Oh horseshit. It's an addiction maybe, but not a disease. And of course the docs and beaurocrats will call it a disease: how much money you gonna pay the doc that tells you that you have a character weakness, snap out of it?
How much government money will the liberals get to study and treat a lack of willpower. They all have a vested interest in calling it a disease. If it is, then so are all the other character failings to which the flesh is heir. It's a personal choice: either quit it or enjoy it, but don't whine about it. |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:15:56 AM EDT
[#9]
http://www.academicpress.com/inscight/10231997/alcohol1.htm
alcoholism Medicine • a chronic condition characterized by the habitual consumption of alcoholic beverages to such an extent that it impairs physical or mental health and interferes with the activities of daily living; it may be progressive in nature and potentially fatal when producing pathological changes in organs. Not looking to start a flame war here, and I'm an engineer, not a doctor. Is a "chronic condition" the same thing as a "disease"? |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:18:42 AM EDT
[#10]
I dont know of any human ailment (physical not mental) that requires the consumption of alcohol to keep it in check.
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:20:12 AM EDT
[#11]
Repeat, NOT A DISEASE! Just another 'it's not my fault' or 'I can't control myself' whine that one would expect to come from a liberal, not an ar15.com member.
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:22:17 AM EDT
[#12]
While I'm not a medical doctor (Ph.D. not M.D.), my limited knowledge of this is that it is a genetic disposition that you either have or do not have. Don't be dismissive of it just because you've been lucky enough not to have it.
Terms like "addictive personality disorder" and stuff like that come more out of the psychology/psychiatry literature and I think it's too early to tell on that - but alcoholism definitely relates to a physical condition. I wonder sometimes if the word "disease" is part of the problem, since we tend to associate that with infectious viruses and bacteria - but conditions such as Althzheimer's and Schizoprhenia have a biological basis as well, and are not infectious. Some people MAY try to use "my addiction is a disease" as an excuse - but don't let that lead you to throw the baby out with the bath-water. People with alcoholism do have a problem that is more complicated than just will-power and "knowing when to quit" Just my (non-M.D.) 2 cent's worth. |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:25:15 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: How much government money will the liberals get to study and treat a lack of willpower. Uhhhh.....none? Isn't that the sort of thing they LOVE? whether you're an alky a junkie a homa-sexyall-pre-vert or big fatass, you're still a "victim" and they want to keep you that way, and create more "victims". |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:25:19 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Repeat, NOT A DISEASE! Just another 'it's not my fault' or 'I can't control myself' whine that one would expect to come from a liberal, not an ar15.com member. Would you say that about clinical depression too? (and yes, I realize that depression is being over-diagnosed these days, and used as an excuse by some, but I'm talking about legitimate cases of depression) |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:29:26 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: Quoted: Repeat, NOT A DISEASE! Just another 'it's not my fault' or 'I can't control myself' whine that one would expect to come from a liberal, not an ar15.com member. Would you say that about clinical depression too? (and yes, I realize that depression is being over-diagnosed these days, and used as an excuse by some, but I'm talking about legitimate cases of depression) |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:29:37 AM EDT
[#16]
OK-is depression caused by enviroment/situation/stress or is it a chemical imbalance or disease that was not caused by some external factor?
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:33:33 AM EDT
[#17]
Cleatus,
The discussion seems to be headed in the direction of "whether or not alcoholism should be considered a disease" instead of "whether or not it IS a disease". I can understand my conservative brethern here being upset with the idea of alcoholism being labelled a "disease". Can you imagine drunks getting handicapped parking rights, disability pay, etc. so they can continue their drinking? BTW - honest question, no flame intended again. Are any of you who said "it's not, it's a personal weakness" medical doctors? I'm not looking for an excuse to hide behind. Every day I choose whether or not I'm going to drink. I blame no one for my own personal decisions and my own personal actions. I don't even blame alcoholism for those times that I CHOOSE to drink. So let's get back to the topic as it was posted, alright? w/ respect, -kid |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:36:56 AM EDT
[#18]
How much would I have to drink to get one of those front row handicapped parking spots!! I'm In!!!
[beer] |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:42:29 AM EDT
[#19]
While I'm not a medical doctor (Ph.D. not M.D.), my limited knowledge of this is that it is a genetic disposition that you either have or do not have. Don't be dismissive of it just because you've been lucky enough not to have it. You assume I don't "have" it...well, gee, I'm Irish, and everyone knows we Irish are all predisposed to being drunks. So send me money. People with alcoholism do have a problem that is more complicated than just will-power and "knowing when to quit" So do pedophiles. Rapists. Serial killers. Crackheads. People who just blew the transmission out of their truck. They all have a "problem that is more complicated than just will-power". But if one's a disease, they all are. |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:43:34 AM EDT
[#20]
One of the people that I was arguing this with was of American Indian decent-he said he was more predispositioned to drink than whitey. I said how is it possible that since whitey introduced the Indians to alcohol only a few hundred years ago-how did they genetically change so quickly to alcohol dependance. And how did they possibly survive as a race before they were introduced to booze if they were so dependant?
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:49:47 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: BTW - honest question, no flame intended again. Are any of you who said "it's not, it's a personal weakness" medical doctors? Are you a medical doctor? If not, that means that those of us who opine that it is not a disease and is an excuse for weakness, are just as qualified to opine as you are, as you are also not an M.D. |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 6:51:12 AM EDT
[#22]
[b]EVERYTHING[/b] in moderation
do everything a little bit instead of some selected things in a limited way... THE PARACHUTE PARADIGM You are one of *two* people on a malfunctioning airplane with only one parachute. How would you react? Pessimist: you refuse the parachute because you might die on the jump anyway. Optimist: you refuse the parachute because people have survived crashes just like this before. Procrastinator: you play a game of Monopoly for the parachute. Bureaucrat: you order them to conduct a feasibility study on parachute use in multi-engine aircraft under code red conditions. Lawyer: you charge one parachute for helping them sue the airline. Doctor: you tell them you need to run more tests, then take the parachute in order to make your next appointment. Sales executive: you sell them the parachute at top retail rates and get the names of their friends and relatives who might like one too. Internal Revenue Service: you confiscate the parachute along with their luggage, wallet, and gold fillings. Engineer: you make them another parachute out of aisle curtains and dental floss. Scientist: you give them the parachute and ask them to send you a report on how well it worked. Mathematician: you refuse to accept the parachute without proof that it will work in all cases. Philosopher: you ask how they know the parachute actually exists. English major: you explicate simile and metaphor in the parachute instructions. Computer Science: you design a machine capable of operating a parachute as well as a human being could. Economics: you plot a demand curve by asking them, at regular intervals, how much they would pay for a parachute. Psychoanalysis: you ask them what the shape of a parachute reminds them of. Drama: you tie them down so they can watch you develop the character of a person stuck on a falling plane without a parachute. Art: you hang the parachute on the wall and sign it. Environmentalist: you refuse to use the parachute unless it is biodegradable. Sports Fan: you start betting on how long it will take to crash. Auto Mechanic: as long as you are looking at the plane engine, it works fine. Surgeon General: you issue a warning that skydiving can be hazardous to your health. |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 7:04:02 AM EDT
[#23]
Playing the semantics game again, eh? It would seem this depends on what the definition of "disease" is. Keep in mind the definition is somewhat fluid, depending on whether we, as a society, want insurance companies to pay benefits for the disease-du-jour. Every disease, whether "real" or "aggendized into existence" has its proponents who lobby, propagandize, and fight to have their "disease" legitimized and made into an "acceptable" mainstream disease, with minimal stigma attached. We can agree, in this case, that some people have a genetic predisposition, which they did not choose, toward consuming alcohol to excess. This makes it difficult for them to control their consumption. This is reality. It becomes a disease when society chooses to call it a disease. The comparison to diabetes is silly, as diabetes is the partial failure of an organ--the pancreas. Same with mental problems, such as clinical depression, it is a problem in the brain, not a choice involved. It fits the clinical definition of disease. Pedophilia, serial killing, rapists, as mentioned above, fit the definition of having a disease, if alcoholism does. Silly notion. A propensity to engage in destructive behavior does not a disease make. It is an unfortunate predisposition, to be sure, but a disease? Only if there's money in it.
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Posted: 8/16/2001 7:04:42 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: I am looking for a stright answer here. I got in a argument with a friend this weekend about this. I personally do not think it is a 'disease'. I look at a disease as something you 'get', not something you have a choice over. Obviously, I am not a doctor and have little knowledge of this stuff, but I, personally chose to drink-no 'bug' is making me do it. When does the 'disease' start? Is everyone who ever has a beer infected? I don't know any serious alcoholics and can't ask them directly. I am trying to find the truth-not just what I feel the answer is. What do you think? I have a friend who is a "substance abuse counselor" for the AZ prison system. The subject did come up. He says (and it makes sense to me) that there are "alcoholics" who have a genetic predisposition. For these people it IS A DISEASE and is very difficult to overcome. Just like depression, it affects their brain chemistry. Then there are "problem drinkers" who do NOT have the genetic problem, but drink for psychological reasons (or "lack of willpower"). His position is that the number of people who actually have the genetic problem is FAR outnumbered by the "problem drinkers". If a truly alcoholic person is able to quit "cold turkey", THERE'S somebody with WILLPOWER. |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 7:12:30 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Are you a medical doctor? If not, that means that those of us who opine that it is not a disease and is an excuse for weakness, are just as qualified to opine as you are, as you are also not an M.D. Larry, If you had been paying attention while reading my replies, rather than trying to be argumentative, you would already know that I stated I am an engineer, not a medical doctor. I am still interpreting the topic of this thread to mean "Is alcoholism considered a disease by the medical community?", and was only asking if there was a medical doctor who could in fact answer "yes" or "no". If you'd like to start another topic called "should alcoholism be considered a disease like terminal cancer, where the victim is given the full benefit disability pay and benefits, etc." I'd side with you in a heartbeat and say "hell no". Are we on the same page yet? Trying to be courteous here... -kid |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 7:18:19 AM EDT
[#26]
I spent 11 months in the hospital after the military and when I got out I was the biggest drunk and drug user you've ever seen. I'd do speed just to keep from passing out from alcohol and pot or hash or whatever else I had in front of me. I quit EVERYTHING (even cigarettes) cold turkey and now occasionally a beer or glass of wine DOESN'T send me back to being a drunk. It was a DECISION - drinking and not-drinking, getting loaded or not getting loaded. Just like the rumprangers these days. Look in ANY psych book from 20 years ago - homosexuality was listed as DEVIANT behavior. Now the politically-correct tell us it's a disease, they''re born with it. BULL! These guys do it cause it feels good. The disease is called NO MORALS.
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Posted: 8/16/2001 7:39:03 AM EDT
[#27]
alcoholism • a chronic condition characterized by the habitual consumption of alcoholic beverages to such an extent that it impairs physical or mental health and interferes with the activities of daily living; it may be progressive in nature and potentially fatal when producing pathological changes in organs. Bear in mind the CDC would love to have gunshot wounds labeled a disease. Disease, hereditary, condition, weakness or whatever, a person chooses to take that first drink. Eddie |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 7:46:10 AM EDT
[#28]
I'm too lazy to reach for the giant dictionary on my desk so I can look up the word "disease". Like cancer, alcoholism is a huge "problem", not only for the alcoholic but also for his/her family. If you study the "problem" of alcoholism as much as I have and witness its destruction of families first hand as I have, you might conclude with me that it is the perfect "disease" or personal "problem". Perfect in the way it will destroy the alcoholic through organ failure or insanity and dissolve the trust that binds families together. So perfect that it had to be invented by Satan.
Some of the posters to this thread lump alcoholism with gambling, street drugs, sex, etc., calling it an "addiction". But what about the collateral damage suffered by loved ones as a result of the actions of the addicted person? Are they victims of a "disease"? Or is it just bad luck? |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 7:46:12 AM EDT
[#29]
If alcoholism is a disease then so is chronic masturbation. In other words; NOT! [;)]
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Posted: 8/16/2001 7:59:18 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: If alcoholism is a disease then so is chronic masturbation. In other words; NOT! [;)] I'm sure lots of one handed typists here will be glad to hear that! LOL |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 8:04:51 AM EDT
[#31]
SIELENCE.
garandman speaketh. There can be no doubt that at some point, alcoholism become a physical addiction and dependency. Witness the shakes, DT's, sweating and mood changes when alcohol has NOT been consumed by an alcoholic. But... There is ALSO no question that alcoholism is a CHOICE. NO ONE (or maybe like one in one billion people) becomes an alcoholic after the first drink. And given the fact that beer tastes roughly akin to goat piss on the first try (so I'm told by NUMEROUS people) its an acquired taste. A taste people CHOOSE to acquire, usually 'cuz they believe it will make them "cool" to hang and drink with their buddies. After the first hangover / puke fest, people CHOOSE to do it again. And again. Most, if not all people are aware of the addictive nature of alcohol. Yet they make their choices. So, NO. Alcoholism is NOT a disease. Its a choice. And I'm not aware of any people that CHOOSE to get a REAL disease like cancer, pneumonia, etc when they could avoid it as easily as they could avoid alcoholism. THAT said, alcoholism CAN be environmetally learned. Drunks who are parents frequently raise little drunks. Its what the offspring come to believe is "normal." "Visiting the sins of the parents on the children to the third and fourth generation..." Exo. 20. Said parents become accountable to the Almighty. And lastly, since alcoholism is a CHOICE, we can clearly see how if God forbids alcoholism, as He does, that it falls into the category of "sin." But that's another whole discussion. [}:D] |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 9:18:26 AM EDT
[#32]
garandman,
Following your logic, if a person contracts lung cancer by choosing to smoke, that form of lung cancer is not a disease. While if a person who has never smoked gets lung cancer, it is then acceptable to call it a disease? |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 9:23:10 AM EDT
[#33]
I am SURE you dont want to argue cancer with garandman....
I think he was arguing that alcohol does cause cirrosis and liver cancer/problems BUT it is a CHOICE of that individual to put the booze in themselves-like smoking. |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 9:24:42 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: garandman, Following your logic, if a person contracts lung cancer by choosing to smoke, that form of lung cancer is not a disease. While if a person who has never smoked gets lung cancer, it is then acceptable to call it a disease? Uh, following his logic the [b]SMOKING[/B] would not be a disease, not the lung cancer (which is). |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 9:35:02 AM EDT
[#35]
Alcoholism is not a disease it is a well cultivated yet expensive hobby. With that in mind, bottoms up boys!!!!
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Posted: 8/16/2001 9:58:42 AM EDT
[#36]
garandman, you've got mail
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Posted: 8/16/2001 10:00:25 AM EDT
[#37]
Addiction? Yes.
Sickness? Yes. Weakness? Definetely! Disease? No friggin' way! |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 10:31:20 AM EDT
[#38]
There's some real irony that should be noted
here. Of the 3 people who have said "Yes, it is a disease", 2 are recovering SOBER alcoholics. And these two who have "been there, done that" are the only two who "don't know what they're talking about" and are "looking for an excuse to hide behind". Hmmmm, The sober ones? That's odd. |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 11:10:39 AM EDT
[#39]
^
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Posted: 8/16/2001 11:19:46 AM EDT
[#40]
Heck No! It's a self control issue.
[moon] |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 11:24:59 AM EDT
[#41]
No, I don't believe it is a disease. It is a character flaw, an excuse, it allows one more group to declare victim status. Medicine and psychology have tended to legitimize this and other behaviors/excuses by attaching disease names to them. Just a few:fibromyalgia, substance abuse, attention deficit disorder, pre-menstrual syndrome, even pedophilia has a disease diagnosis.
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Posted: 8/16/2001 11:27:39 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: garandman, Following your logic, if a person contracts lung cancer by choosing to smoke, that form of lung cancer is not a disease. While if a person who has never smoked gets lung cancer, it is then acceptable to call it a disease? For clarities sake.... Alcoholism does become a chemical dependency, after years of drinking. But no one EVER becomes an alcoholic except by the choice to abuse alcohol. Therefore, if you want to call alcoholism a "disease" you MUST call it a self-inflicted disease. Which is NOT a disease. Lung cancer is a self-inflicted malady caused by the choice to fill your lungs up with a known carcinogen. So in the traditional medical sense, no, its NOT a disease. Is a self-infliceted gun shot wound a disease?? The only difference between a gun shot wound and lung cancer / alcoholism is - time. |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 11:35:18 AM EDT
[#43]
Disease - NO
Condition - YES (Self inflicted) [i][b]"If you're not part of the Solution, you're part of the problem"[/i][/b] sgb |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 11:44:04 AM EDT
[#44]
Yes, it is.
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Posted: 8/16/2001 11:51:23 AM EDT
[#45]
Cancer is a disease. Smoking is not.
Cirrhosis of the liver is a disease. Drinking is not. Diabetes is a disease. In the case of Type II - overconsumption of carbohydrates leading to insulin resistance is not. A behavior is not a disease. This behavior may lead to disease but would not fit the classical definition, which to state very plainly would be dysfunction of the body or a body system or a failure of the immune system. In my opinion even the psycho/social definitions of disease don't fit unless there is an underlying organic problem. |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 1:47:43 PM EDT
[#46]
I prefer to think of it as a pastime. [beer]
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Posted: 8/16/2001 4:34:27 PM EDT
[#47]
There is no scientific evidence that alcoholism is a disease. There is also no scientific evidence that it is genetic. The idea of alcoholism was invented by the founder of AA after he had been in the care of a Dr. Silkworth. Silkworth came up with the theory that alcoholism was a "allergy" or disease and convinced Bill Wilson the founder of AA it was a disease. Silkworths theory was not based on any objective medical research or physical evidence it was based on his own personal dealings with drunks in the hospital he worked in.
The Bible says that adultry, homosexuality, drunkeness, stealing, and murder are all sins. Some scientists have tried to say that people who do these things do so because they are genetically predesposed. It is always been interesting to me that scientists want to explain away the evil that dwells within all of us, by blaming our sinful behavior on our genes. Anyway, a good book on the subject is "12 Steps to Destruction" by Martin and Deidre Bobgan. It can be ordered from this website http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/mainpage.html While you are there check out the site and you can also subscribe to a free newsletter. |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 5:10:31 PM EDT
[#48]
well let me tell you, it feels like a disease.
i drank everday since i was about 15 years old. at least a couple of beers. i quit drinking about 5 years ago. not a drop. i tried this a few times before. it would last 4 to 6 months then i would say what the hell one beer won't hurt. WRONG... well maybe two beers tonight then three ,12 pack, case,etc. i know if i had a drink right now, i would not be able to stop. this is not weak will, it is the bodies inability to cope without alcohol. if i were to take that drink now ,it would be weak will. |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 5:30:32 PM EDT
[#49]
Surprised no one thought of this first: It's not a disease, as much as smoking isn't one either. IT's a symptom of a greater problem. What that problem is could be better explained by garandman. Why I drink: I'm sad alot. Why I smoke: I'm sad alot. Am I depressed? Nah, just sad. Do I use these as an escape? Occasionally. Do I use them for social reason: Commonly. Do I use them for fun: No.
Weak flesh is my disease. Cure the disease and the symptoms go away. (Don't even bother flaming me. I could care less.) [):)] NSF |
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Posted: 8/16/2001 5:39:08 PM EDT
[#50]
I like garandman's definition the best. In the beginning, it is a choice. But alcohol and other addictive substances actually change the physical makeup of your brain, and they override the brain to make it think that it needs the substance for survival. Then it becomes terribly hard to quit, even if you would like nothing better.
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