User Panel
Posted: 2/20/2006 1:08:26 PM EDT
F-22 Raptors to Japan?
Via InsideDefense.com, Inside The Air Force (ITAF) reports that momentum is building within the Air Force to sell the ultra-advanced F-22A Raptor abroad to trusted U.S. allies, as a way of plussing up numbers and production. The USAF originally initially intended to purchase almost 700 F-22 fighters, but that was cut to 442, then 339, and recently cut again to just over 180. These cuts have had obvious effects on the cost per aircraft. One of the most likely export prospects is Japan. The Japan Air Self-Defense Force (JASDF) currently has four fighter jet models in its fleet: F-15J/F-15DJ Eagles, its F-4EJ "Kai" and RF-4EJ reconnaissance Phantom IIs, the Mitsubishi F-2s (a larger, longer-range variant on the F-16C), and F-1s. The F-1 entered service in 1978 and is being replaced by F-2s; the JASDF introduced the F-4EJ in 1973, and has indicated it will begin retiring the platform some time next decade. This gives the Japanese a number of choices.... Since the F-2s will no longer be built, they cannot replace the F-4EJs and RF-4EJs. Japan may choose to go ahead and buy "kaizen" F-15Js at a comparable cost, and rely on attached pods like ReeceLight or SHARP for reconnaissance. Alternatively, it could move for a broader capability upgrade and buy a 4th or 5th generation fighter. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter would be attractive for budgetary reasons and can perform very capably in the air-air and reconaissance roles, while its set partnership model smooths technology transfer issues. Unfortunately, its single-engine design would be a concern during maritime combat air patrols, and its declared status as a strike fighter works against it in a country that's so insistent on the purely defensive functions of its weaponry. The Eurofighter Typhoon or Dassault Rafale would be possibilities, and coupling them with the MBDA Meteor long-range air-air missile might be very attractive given Japan's needs. Yet there has been no indication of interest from Japan at this stage, and such a move would mean deviating from Japan's strongly American industrial links and equipment infrastructure. That would be no small move in a society that sets such store by deep industrial relationships. On the other hand, Japan's combination of long sea zones and growing rivalry with China make a long-range, twin-engine, supercruising and stealthy interceptor that has unprecedented reconnaissance capabilities and leverages existing Japanese partnerships with Lockheed and Boeing nearly irresistible. Seen in that light, the JASDF's interest in the F-22 is less surprising. A Lockheed Martin official has confirmed that a proposal to sell Japan F-22s in some form of downgraded "international variant" is working its way through the Air Force with the support of the Japanese government, and is now "at the three- or four-star level" and among civilian decision-makers. Yet the F-22's extensive and not fully-revealed capabilities have made many in the USA very nervous about exporting it, and thereby risking a security breach around its electronic architecture, stealth aspects, or next-generation data links. The aircraft's $130 million flyaway cost also makes all but the most serious buyers hesitate. link |
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Personally I doubt Japan gets F-22A's, even "light" versions. It would be interesting though if selling some to Japan would increase our number of Raptor's though. Food for thought.
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Unless Japan has become far less friendly to the US since the days that the F-15s were sold, at the time the top-of-the-line fighter, I don't see why not.
NTM |
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We need allies, and Japan is a top notch selection IMO.
Let them buy. |
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We sold them F-15s (actually Mitsubishi licence-built them) that were basically an airframe with basic flight controls/instruments, they added their own avionics and fire control systems. The F-22 is a totally different animal, the stealth characteristics of the airframe itself, along with the coatings, etc. are classified. The avionics are completely integrated, the processors do all functions (fire control, flight control, etc) at the same time and interchangably, it makes it almost impossible to "de-class" it to the degree that significant technology transfer didn't happen. Those same issues have been bugging the shit out of the F-35 camp for a while. |
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I personnally think all planes sold should have some secret collapsable curcuit that could be triggered remotly somehow that we don't tell them about...In mid air all of a suddon all their planes lose power for no reason.......muhwahwawawawaw. But I like to think like that...
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Why don't we see if they would be willing to "sponsor" a few wings of USAF ones that will be stationed over there instead.
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Good plan! We (active duty) have to "share" planes with the Guard and Reserve these days anyway, why not paint some more crap on them, we all know who will be maintaining them anyway. |
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yea, they're on our side, and it's not like they are going to lie about being our friend, I mean what could they possibly do, give us friendship metals and then bomb us, again.
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I remember reading that the F-35 was being designed fron the on-set to have to have that capability with stealth and avionics but like you said it was a tough nut to crack. Avionics I can see, not sure with the stealth though? Maybe a little extra gap here, rough edge there.... |
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Here is to hoping that this sale would lower the per unit cost enough that the USAF could afford a few more than the 180 they are currently slated to buy! |
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More F-22s being built. Good with me.
F-22s in the hands of a proven ally positioned close to probable threats. Also good with me. No probs there. |
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I'm hearing 'YES' too that one too.
A number of countries would like to get their hands on the F-22 but the 'Full Fat - High Caffiene' version comes with too high a sticker price. Two countries have been offered the 'real deal' so far; Britain (did not want it), and Australia, (wanted it but could not afford it). Now, if a 'cheaper' version hit's the shelves I'm betting Austraila will be back in the frame as they really wanted the F-22 but just could not find the money. Japan and Israel would be the other natural purchasers. ANdy |
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I wonder how much cheaper Lock-Mart can make it and how much of a perfromance/avionics downgrade before it makes sense to buy an F-35...Bascially will Lock-Mart be competing against it's own airframes? |
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180 airframes? I thought that the cut was overturned? Seriously, we should have just not gone ahead with the JSF program and replaced all our current fighters with F-22s and done away with the high-low mix. I know on the surface this would be unworkably expensive, but people seem to forget that unit cost drops when production rates increase as well as amortizing the R and D cost over more airframes. (also the JSF is artifically cheap due to significant portions of it's tech being deved by the ATF program) The billions spent on the JSF fly off, development, and production coulf have paid for over a thousand F-22s and we'd be better off.
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Well, we can always nuke em again if worse comes to worse. |
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We need to sell more to allies. We need to buy more for ourselves. |
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Fucking with China no doubt. We need to sell to Taiwan and S.Korea too. Minus our top secret stuff though. I think we should donate a few to Taiwan just to piss the ChiComs.
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If 1 F22 can sit down 5 F-15s in a dogfight how man Migs or Sukhois would that be? The SU-37 or 47 will not go into production last I heard and they would need to be at gun-range to have a chance. The Mig-35 as yet is not a functional idea and the the Sukhoi 27, 30, and 33 are overmatched by an F-15. This deal would be all about squelching future Chinese/N.Korean imperialism. |
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Why not?
If they go bad on us we just refuse to renew their software license key and the things can't fly ... it's all done via the GPS signals and a secret Microsoft back door in the fighters OS. |
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Your missing the point, the contraction of airframe procurment can not be allowed to continue, with the ever increasing value of aircraft the loss of fewer aircraft becomes unsustainable, thus the kinds of missions you are willing to take on become more and more selective. This is a bad trend, a very bad trend. |
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I don't really know what to say because frankly I don't know much about aircrafts, but I say fuck no if there's a chance they pull some Israeli stunt and turn around and sell shit to our enemies.
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I understand that they cost too much to lose and acquiring new ones will be a problem also I really do not like cutbacks on fighters that outclass the competition so profoundly. But the F-22 is for sweeping the skies initially and very selective target bombing at high speed, I imagine maintainence of air superiority will be largely met by the F-35 and F-15. |
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I recall a story from a number of years ago, back when the Cold War was still going on, when the U.S. licensed technology used in our attack submarines to our Japanese "allies". (IIRC, it had something to do with the propeller technology that made our subs so quiet). Well, a Japanese company (Toshiba, IIRC), reverse-engineered our technology, then promptly sold it to the Soviets. The Soviets, of course, incorporated that technology into their own subs, as a result of which the Commie subs became much harder for our own subs to detect, our sailors' lives were put at risk, and our overall national security was gravely jeopardized.
Anyone here recall the rest of the details from that scandal? Anyway, my point is, we should be careful about giving out our most closely held technological secrets. Even to our closest "allies". |
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You have to wonder if the number is being held up due to UCAV development. There was talk of cutting the number of F-35's to increase Raptor purchase, but I think that got shit-canned. |
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Right, and then some Norwegian will write the patch and you'll be able to download it off Kazaa. I'm not so worried about government resale but of individuals or corporations selling out. One of our guys sells it, we can toss them in the brig. One of theirs sells...we can....be very angry? |
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They will not publish video of UCAV air-to-air test. Thier manueverability is said to be around 25Gs even with special suits the best pilots cannot take more than 11, you do the math. They are far stealthier too and less costly. War just became a video game. |
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It is funny I am here on break sitting between 4 half built F-16s I will tell you all of those production #'s seem to chage daily. I hope they sell something to someone sone so I don't get laid off this year.
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Which is exactly the reason that the USAF decided to put the YF-45 (aka X-45C) on hold, because it threatened their precious manned fighter programs. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am sick of my service being run by the fighter mafia, driving a fighter should preclude you from calling the shots, not be a prerequisite. We need more missiles and space guys in pentagon. |
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Wouldn't put it past them. They need to realize the battlefield is different and can be changed (which is why the Fighter Mafia came into existance in the first place, oddly enough). What I see is a F-22 Raptor with 3 F-45's on it's wing, and the pilot "managing" his UCAV's while fighting himself. |
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Probably a very accurate prediction, but I see AWACS backenders doing the UCAV managing, the -22 would have to be 2 seat to really work well in that role. Now an F-15E (or K) model with 4 stealthy UCAVs on its wing, would be a hell of a surprise to the guy that though he was a one ship. |
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lol CO: EVERYBODY SCRAMBLE!!! <pilot gets into F22> F22: I'm sorry, Your 14-day Windows Trial period is up. Would you like to validate by Mail, Telephone, or the Internet? Pilot: Fuck... |
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As I recall it, that incident wasn't nearly as treacherous as you describe it - Essentially, Toshiba sold CNC machining equipment to the Soviets that was theoretically capable of producing quieter sub props. The actual design of the props used on American subs was never part of the deal. Still, your point is well-taken: NOBODY (with the possible exception of the immediate British Empire) is beyond selling us out, if the price is right. |
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The Japan Air Self-Defense Force F-22J, built by Mitsubishi, Ishikawajima-Harima HI and Kawasaki HI.
Buy American my ass. |
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Now here is a twisted thought, what if we buy an additional block of F-22s down the road like we have on occasion with the F-15, what if the japanese companies building under liscence under big LockMart. The Mitsubishi F/A-22, that's an odd thought. |
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No wierder than the Mitsubishi F-4, F-15, H-47, etc. They have been license building US .mil products for three decades at least. |
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Oh, I know, I was just saying if we bought license built airframes from them, that would strike me as odd. |
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Gotcha, sorry bout that. That would never happen, congresscritters would lose some pork. Even foreign aircraft like the EH-101 and HH-65 have to be "built" here to make them happy. |
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Ok, three plus or minus 7. I was talking about the current Japanese government, and modern military hardware. |
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Not so..... Why Australia Went With the F-35 by Harold C. Hutchison December 4, 2005 The Royal Australian Air Force’s decision to go ahead with buying the F-35 might be surprising, but not when one looks at what the alternatives had been. The Australians had been considering ten options for the future of the RAAF. These options were a mixture of proven capability (like the F-15E and F-16), and the cutting edge (like the Eurofighter, F-22, and robotic warplanes, or UCAVs). Yet, not all of them made the cut. What is unique about the RAAF competition is the frank discussion of the pros and cons of the contenders that emerged. Usually, not a lot of information is released, either for the sake of the country doing the buying (in order to avoid tipping off potential opponents) and the companies involved (in order to preserve a chance at future sales by keeping competing aircraft firms from knowing weaknesses in another design). Australia is planning to replace both its F-111s and F-18s with the F-35. The F-35 is a stealthy multi-role aircraft with a top speed of 1,900 kilometers per hour, and a combat radius of over 1,100 kilometers. The aircraft comes in at anywhere from $37 million (the U.S. Air Force’s version) to $48 million (the U.S. Navy’s carrier version). Why was the F-35, which is not yet in service, chosen over other aircraft, some of which have been proven in combat (like the F-15 and F-16), or which have had most of the bugs worked out (Rafale, Su-30MK, Gripen, F/A-18E/F)? The answer is what Australia was looking for – they wanted a modern, multi-role fighter that could last a long time (the planned retirement date is 2040). They also wanted stealth, good sensors, and long range. Looking these requirements over helps explain why some planes did not make the cut. The F-15 and F-16 were state of the art through the 1970s and 1980s, but fell behind the Rafale and Eurofighter, and are slated to be replaced with the F-22 and F-35, respectively. To an extent, the F-18E/F also fell victim, even though it had much in common with RAAF F-18s currently in service. The Rafale had two problems. The biggest was interoperability. Australia and the United States have fought together in a number of major conflicts dating back to World War I. There is very little expectation that this will change, and Australia wants to simplify matters like logistics. What also plagued the Rafale, as well as the Gripen and Eurofighter were issue with stealth (not enough), and sensors (the small radomes raised concerns). The Gripen also failed on range. The F-22 was one of the planes considered. Performance and logistics were not issues – cost was. The F-22 was coming in at $150 million a plane, and it was optimized for the air-to-air role, with the attack capability added on after many of the parameters were set. The most expensive variant of the F-35 comes in at $48 million. So, for the price of one F-22, one could get three F-35Cs or close to four F-35As (the variant Australia is purchasing). One F-22 can beat one F-35, but one F-22 would have a much difficult time beating three F-35Cs or four F-35As – and it cannot be in three or four places at once. Two the competitors were never serious possibilities. The first was the Su-30MK, which was non-stealthy, had serious inter-operability issues, and would have been extremely controversial. In essence, there were some questions as to why it was even considered despite its range and powerful sensor suite. The other competitor quickly wiped out were unmanned air combat vehicles (UCAVs). The Australians figured that UCAVs would eventually supplement manned combat aircraft, but would not suffice as replacements. The last aircraft standing was the F-35. While it is a paper airplane, it is well under way, and Australia will be able to get a version of the F-35 that will meet its requirements through 2040. Other countries will also be buying at least one variant of the F-35, including the United Kingdom, Norway, Turkey, and the Netherlands. The F-35 will likely be the F-16 of the early 21st century. http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/200512405854.asp The decision to go with the F-35 has not been met with a great deal of approval within the RAAF. |
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The basic problem with the F-35 is it's a lightweight fighter, optimised for strike missions. It's the old F-15 vs F-16 argument again. If it can get in close an F-35 will be able to tangle with an F-22, but the F-22's performance means the F-35 will never get the chance to find out. ANdy |
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As long as isreal doesnt get there mits on it. They tend to let the chinese have a good go around of our technology.
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I bet. By the time the F-35 buy shrinks by 40% it will be a near $100M airplane, and the F-22 would make much better sense. Oh well, lose a $30 part on a $60K part on a $5M engine, and the $80M airplane becomes a very fawking expensive smoking hole. I guess the idiots didn't learn from the 300 crashed F-16s. afsafety.af.mil/stats/f_stats.asp Look at all the numbers for single v twin engine, its just stupid to spend 30% less on a total piece of shit with one engine. We need about 1000+ F-22a and NO F-35s, they should all be unmanned F/A-45Cs anyway. |
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