Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It wouldn't have taken an entire SAWT team to end that massacre. Those two assholes would have been no match for one well trained officer with a rifle and some skill. That's the problem with law enforcement nowadays.  It used to be, if a warrant needed serving, you sent in 3-4 uniforms and maybe a detective.  SWAT teams were reserved for hostage situations, barricaded suspects, things like that.  Nowadays, they throw tactical teams at every problem and overanalyze every situation to death. - Dont know much about LE work do you?

You'd like people to believe that, but I think your real fear is that I know all too much about it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Everyone is a hero and a general when  away from the perimeter Questioning a combat vet, nice. I never realized that combat vets are on an unquestionable pedestal.

You don't like seeing people put up on a pedestel.
Agreed. Nor do I.
But to be fair, people here are questioning a police officer's actions as well.
I am sure you agree that the actions of the police are not unquestionable.

Quoted: Yeah, because NO ONE ever dealt with a rampaging shooter before, right?  Oh, I forgot...yes, they did.  It's happened many times through the years.  Hindsight isn't required...all that was needed was a bit of FOREsight and some balls.

- How many rampaging shooters inside a school were dealt with prior to Columbine?

Quoted: Quoted: Yeah, because NO ONE ever dealt with a rampaging shooter before, right?  Oh, I forgot...yes, they did.  It's happened many times through the years.  Hindsight isn't required...all that was needed was a bit of FOREsight and some balls. - How many rampaging shooters inside a school were dealt with prior to Columbine?

Yes, a school does add something to the equation:  a whole bunch of innocent civilians being killed and wounded, dying while you're sitting outside with your thumb up your ass.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It wouldn't have taken an entire SAWT team to end that massacre. Those two assholes would have been no match for one well trained officer with a rifle and some skill. That's the problem with law enforcement nowadays.  It used to be, if a warrant needed serving, you sent in 3-4 uniforms and maybe a detective.  SWAT teams were reserved for hostage situations, barricaded suspects, things like that.  Nowadays, they throw tactical teams at every problem and overanalyze every situation to death. - Dont know much about LE work do you? You'd like people to believe that, but I think your real fear is that I know all too much about it.

- Far from it.  If I came across as an ass earlier; you are coming across as ignorant now.

BTW, which walls had holes from officers weapons in them?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Everyone is a hero and a general when  away from the perimeter Questioning a combat vet, nice. I never realized that combat vets are on an unquestionable pedestal. You don't like seeing people put up on a pedestel. Agreed. Nor do I. But to be fair, people here are questioning a police officer's actions as well. I am sure you agree that the actions of the police are not unquestionable.

- I dont have an issue with people legitmately questioning the actions of police. Cant recall ever saying that I did.

Quoted:  If I came across as an ass earlier; you are coming across as ignorant now.

One of us is coming across as an ignorant ass, all right.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yeah, because NO ONE ever dealt with a rampaging shooter before, right?  Oh, I forgot...yes, they did.  It's happened many times through the years.  Hindsight isn't required...all that was needed was a bit of FOREsight and some balls. - How many rampaging shooters inside a school were dealt with prior to Columbine? Yes, a school does add something to the equation:  a whole bunch of innocent civilians being killed and wounded, dying while you're sitting outside with your thumb up your ass.

- Because they lacked "balls" right?

Quoted: Quoted:  If I came across as an ass earlier; you are coming across as ignorant now. One of us is coming across as an ignorant ass, all right.

- Glad you had that moment of self-discovery there.  

a good plan now beats the hell out of a great plan later.

Quoted: I dont have an issue with people legitmately questioning the actions of police. Cant recall ever saying that I did.

But somehow you've never met a question you'd call legitimate, right?
You know, I am not one of those people that goes off on cops every time I see a "horror story" about how they overreacted or cuffed someone who "didn't deserve it" or whatever.  I know cops have a damned tough job and put their lives at risk to protect others.  I give them the benefit of the doubt.  But when they shirk that responsibility and allow others to DIE, to BLEED TO DEATH, because they're more worried about their own safety than they are the safety of KIDS, then yes, I get pissed.
There's really no excuse for it, just rationalizations by apologists.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Everyone is a hero and a general when  away from the perimeter Questioning a combat vet, nice. I never realized that combat vets are on an unquestionable pedestal. You don't like seeing people put up on a pedestel. Agreed. Nor do I. But to be fair, people here are questioning a police officer's actions as well. I am sure you agree that the actions of the police are not unquestionable.

I think that is the problem.  Apparently he does think that any action or lack of action by police IS unquestionable.  I might be wrong, but that is the impression given by the responses in this thread.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yeah, because NO ONE ever dealt with a rampaging shooter before, right?  Oh, I forgot...yes, they did.  It's happened many times through the years.  Hindsight isn't required...all that was needed was a bit of FOREsight and some balls. - How many rampaging shooters inside a school were dealt with prior to Columbine? Yes, a school does add something to the equation:  a whole bunch of innocent civilians being killed and wounded, dying while you're sitting outside with your thumb up your ass. - Because they lacked "balls" right?

Someone lacked balls.  Either the ones giving the orders (or failing to give them) or the ones following those orders.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:  If I came across as an ass earlier; you are coming across as ignorant now. One of us is coming across as an ignorant ass, all right. - Glad you had that moment of self-discovery there.

Yeah, you keep thinking that.  Whatever lets you keep looking yourself in the mirror.

Quoted: But somehow you've never met a question you'd call legitimate, right?

- Wrong.  A lot of questions people ask are legitimate.  Around here, that tends to occur less often though.

But when they shirk that responsibility and allow others to DIE, to BLEED TO DEATH, because they're more worried about their own safety than they are the safety of KIDS, then yes, I get pissed. There's really no excuse for it, just rationalizations by apologists.

- So they never arrived on scene, never engaged the shooters, never helped evac people from the building, etc?  No.. they didnt do anything because they didnt do it the way you saw fit.

I'll readily admit I'm worried about my personal safety; only a fool isnt.  When you have multiple shooters with IEDs and reports of additonal suspects; you dont just rush into a situation because you have the "balls" to do so.  Running into a situation getting yourself killed or injured isnt heping anyone out.

There is a fine line between being brave and being stupid.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:  If I came across as an ass earlier; you are coming across as ignorant now. One of us is coming across as an ignorant ass, all right. - Glad you had that moment of self-discovery there.   Yeah, you keep thinking that.  Whatever lets you keep looking yourself in the mirror.

Got any more witty comebacks?  How about the sources of your info concerning what walls were shot?  Or how about simply which walls were shot?

Quoted: I think that is the problem.  Apparently he does think that any action or lack of action by police IS unquestionable.  I might be wrong, but that is the impression given by the responses in this thread.

- Far from it.

Quoted: Running into a situation getting yourself killed or injured isnt heping anyone out.

And sitting outside didn't help any of the kids inside the school.

Whatever the excuse, the decision to delay entering the school was wrong.

The kids needed someone to protect and rescue them.  

Quoted: A lot of questions people ask are legitimate.

If you don't think the questions being asked about Columbine are legitimate, one wonders what you DO call legitimate.

So they never arrived on scene, never engaged the shooters, never helped evac people from the building, etc?

Not only did they not engage the shooters, they COULDN'T engage the shooters because both kids were dead before the vast majority of the police even arrived on the scene.  And they sat out there and let a teacher bleed to death even though they knew where he was and knew his situation.

There is a fine line between being brave and being stupid.

And as they proved that day, it's just as easy to be cowardly and stupid.

Quoted: Got any more witty comebacks?

Got any more witless ones?

Quoted: If you don't think the questions being asked about Columbine are legitimate, one wonders what you DO call legitimate.

- When did I say the questions weren't legitmate?  

Not only did they not engage the shooters, they COULDN'T engage the shooters because both kids were dead before the vast majority of the police even arrived on the scene.  And they sat out there and let a teacher bleed to death even though they knew where he was and knew his situation.

- So the police never fired a single round at either shooter?

Quoted: Quoted: Got any more witty comebacks?   Got any more witless ones?

You are far surpassing me in that field.  I'll let you continue that

Quoted: Not only did they not engage the shooters, they COULDN'T engage the shooters because both kids were dead before the vast majority of the police even arrived on the scene.  .

You are wrong. Source coming up as soon as I dig through some bookmarks.

Edit to add:

www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/columbine.cd/Pages/NARRATIVE.Time.Line.htm

School Resource Officer engaged the shooters at  11:24, one minute after arriving on scene and about one minute after the shooting started. Gardner pretty much emptied his gun while engaging K & H.

Check out 11:44. It is K & H who are shooting into empty rooms.

11:52. Entry authorized. Shots still being fired by H & K.

www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/columbine.cd/Pages/NARRATIVE.Time.Line2.htm

12:02. Officers exchanging gunfire with K & H.
12:06 SWAT enters building while gunfire reported to still be occuring.
12:08 K & H kill themselves.

Quoted: So the police never fired a single round at either shooter?

Don't put words on my keyboard.  The cops fired at them from outside the school, near the beginning of the whole thing.  They never had the chance to engage them INSIDE the school.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yeah, because NO ONE ever dealt with a rampaging shooter before, right?  Oh, I forgot...yes, they did.  It's happened many times through the years.  Hindsight isn't required...all that was needed was a bit of FOREsight and some balls. - How many rampaging shooters inside a school were dealt with prior to Columbine? Yes, a school does add something to the equation:  a whole bunch of innocent civilians being killed and wounded, dying while you're sitting outside with your thumb up your ass.

Welcome to the Village of Wrong, you are the Mayor.

www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/columbine.cd/Pages/TOC.htm

Community Resource Officer Called to “Back Lot”

   Jefferson County Sheriff’s Deputy Neil Gardner soon would complete his second year as the uniformed community resource officer assigned to Columbine High School.  Gardner, a 15-year veteran of the Sheriff’s Office, normally ate his lunch with the students in the cafeteria during first lunch period.  His car would have been parked in his “normal spot” in front of the cafeteria doors - between the junior and senior parking lots.

   On April 20, however, Deputy Gardner and campus supervisor Andy Marton, an unarmed school security officer employed by the school district, were eating lunch in Gardner’s  patrol car.  They were monitoring students in the “Smokers’ Pit,” a spot just to the northwest of campus in Clement Park where the students congregated to smoke cigarettes.

   Gardner had just finished his lunch when he received a call over the school’s radio from a custodian.  “Neil,” called the custodian in a panicked voice, “I need you in the back lot!”

   Gardner pulled out of the parking lot near the school’s tennis courts and drove onto Pierce Street in front of the school.  The “back lot” being referred to by the custodian, he assumed, was the south student parking lot by the cafeteria.  As soon as he pulled onto Pierce Street, he heard another call being dispatched over the Sheriff’s radio, “Female down in the south lot of Columbine High School.” He activated his lights and siren.  It was 11:23.

In his own mind, he recalled later, he thought someone probably had been hit by a car.

First Shooter Seen
   As soon as Gardner pulled into the south parking lot off of South Pierce Street, he saw kids running out of the school in every direction.  As he drove around toward the south lot, he also saw smoke coming from the west end of the parking lot and heard several loud explosions.  Students standing on the soccer field were pointing toward the building.  He could hear gunshots coming from inside the school but could not pinpoint from where.

   Gardner pulled his vehicle into the senior parking lot where he had a good vantage point.  He could see both parking lots, the cafeteria and the second story west entrance to the school.  As he got out of his patrol car, he received a second call on the school radio.  “Neil, there’s a shooter in the school.”

   Numerous patrol units and emergency vehicles already were responding to the school as the Sheriff’s dispatch center reported “female down” and “possible shots fired at Columbine High School.” There was so much traffic on the police radio that Gardner could not tell dispatch he was on scene.

   As Gardner stepped out of his patrol car, Eric Harris turned his attention from shooting into the west doors of the high school to the student parking lot and to the deputy.  Gardner, particularly visible in the bright yellow shirt of the community resource officer uniform, was the target of Harris’ bullets. Harris fired about 10 shots from his rifle at Gardner before his gun jammed. Although Gardner’s patrol car was not hit by bullets, two vehicles that he was parked behind were hit by Harris’ gunfire.  Investigators later found two bullet holes in each of the cars.  

Officer Exchanges Gunfire
   Gardner, seeing Harris working with his gun, leaned over the top of the car and fired four shots.  He was 60 yards from the gunman.  Harris spun hard to the right and Gardner momentarily thought he had hit him. Seconds later, Harris began shooting again at the deputy.

   After the exchange of gunfire, Harris ran back into the building. Gardner was able to get on the police radio and called for assistance from other Sheriff’s units. “Shots in the building.  I need someone in the south lot with me.”

--------------------------------

Another source

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre

I could also get into the PC stuff "gun free" school zones, and public perception of having a ptrol car with a "gasp" rifle in it on school grounds.................... That stuff effects the how the police do business.

My department just authorized AR-15 rifles, as long as individual officers buy them............. But absolutely NO OPTICAL SIGHTING DEVICES OR LASER, because they look to scarey.

Quoted: Quoted: So the police never fired a single round at either shooter? Don't put words on my keyboard.  The cops fired at them from outside the school, near the beginning of the whole thing.  They never had the chance to engage them INSIDE the school.

Your post made it sound as if they never engaged the shooters, and that that had to be why there were LE bullet holes inside the building.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So the police never fired a single round at either shooter? Don't put words on my keyboard.  The cops fired at them from outside the school, near the beginning of the whole thing.  They never had the chance to engage them INSIDE the school. Your post made it sound as if they never engaged the shooters, and that that had to be why there were LE bullet holes inside the building.

What I said was, the cops were shooting into a building where they knew innocent kids were, when they had no clear idea of where the bad guys were or how many of them there were.

Quoted: My department just authorized AR-15 rifles, as long as individual officers buy them............. But absolutely NO OPTICAL SIGHTING DEVICES OR LASER, because they look to scarey.

You work for morons.

Quoted: Quoted: So the police never fired a single round at either shooter? Don't put words on my keyboard.  The cops fired at them from outside the school, near the beginning of the whole thing.  They never had the chance to engage them INSIDE the school.

- I'm not putting words on your keyboard; I was replying to this:  

Not only did they not engage the shooters, they COULDN'T engage the shooters because both kids were dead before the vast majority of the police even arrived on the scene

Last time I checked you engage someone anytime you return an attack.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So the police never fired a single round at either shooter? Don't put words on my keyboard.  The cops fired at them from outside the school, near the beginning of the whole thing.  They never had the chance to engage them INSIDE the school. Your post made it sound as if they never engaged the shooters, and that that had to be why there were LE bullet holes inside the building. What I said was, the cops were shooting into a building where they knew innocent kids were, when they had no clear idea of where the bad guys were or how many of them there were.

Even with the back pedal, you remain WRONG.


As Gardner stepped out of his patrol car, Eric Harris turned his attention from shooting into the west doors of the high school to the student parking lot and to the deputy. Gardner, particularly visible in the bright yellow shirt of the community resource officer uniform, was the target of Harris’ bullets. Harris fired about 10 shots from his rifle at Gardner before his gun jammed. Although Gardner’s patrol car was not hit by bullets, two vehicles that he was parked behind were hit by Harris’ gunfire. Investigators later found two bullet holes in each of the cars.

Officer Exchanges Gunfire
Gardner, seeing Harris working with his gun, leaned over the top of the car and fired four shots. He was 60 yards from the gunman. Harris spun hard to the right and Gardner momentarily thought he had hit him. Seconds later, Harris began shooting again at the deputy.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So the police never fired a single round at either shooter? Don't put words on my keyboard.  The cops fired at them from outside the school, near the beginning of the whole thing.  They never had the chance to engage them INSIDE the school. Your post made it sound as if they never engaged the shooters, and that that had to be why there were LE bullet holes inside the building. What I said was, the cops were shooting into a building where they knew innocent kids were, when they had no clear idea of where the bad guys were or how many of them there were.

Even with the back pedal, you remain WRONG.


As Gardner stepped out of his patrol car, Eric Harris turned his attention from shooting into the west doors of the high school to the student parking lot and to the deputy. Gardner, particularly visible in the bright yellow shirt of the community resource officer uniform, was the target of Harris’ bullets. Harris fired about 10 shots from his rifle at Gardner before his gun jammed. Although Gardner’s patrol car was not hit by bullets, two vehicles that he was parked behind were hit by Harris’ gunfire. Investigators later found two bullet holes in each of the cars.

Officer Exchanges Gunfire
Gardner, seeing Harris working with his gun, leaned over the top of the car and fired four shots. He was 60 yards from the gunman. Harris spun hard to the right and Gardner momentarily thought he had hit him. Seconds later, Harris began shooting again at the deputy.

Quoted: What I said was, the cops were shooting into a building where they knew innocent kids were, when they had no clear idea of where the bad guys were or how many of them there were.

You said, and I quote:

"Quoted:
Shooting blindly into a building where you know innocent civilians are located, when you haven't actually seen or been shot at by the opposition AIN'T professional."

You also said that bullet holes inside the building must have come from LE firing blindly because by the time they entered the school, K & H were already dead. My earlier post already addressed that, disproved your comments and showed that you are wrong.

As for your earlier comment about departments not being able to predict that another shooting will happen, the reality is that there is a very large "it can never happen here" mentality in the senior leadership of many agencies. Equipment and training costs money, and it is hard for them to justify either for something that is most probably never going to happen in their jurisdiction, and if it does happen, the hope is that it can be resolved with the more traditional tools that LE has on hand already paid for and trained on, like the handgun and shotty or by calling in the specialists.... SWAT..

Quoted: Before Columbine, few, if any shooters were still active when the police arrived. Most had been previously subdued or stopped on their own. Columbine presented a new scenario which the police were totally unprepared for. Now, there are few police departments that don't have a plan for active shooters. This can be compared to the events of 9-11. Before 9-11, the thing to do if your plane was hijacked was keep your mouth shut, your head down, and go home alive. Now few people would expect to survive a hijacking, and many would resist.

Big +1.

By the way, a lot of you act like children.

MAN!! Talk about revisionist history.  RikWriter, if you are going to argue a point it would be helpful to actually know something about the incident.  

Tagged for proof of RikWriter's claims.  Until that very unlikely event I'm returning to the fishing forums. Those folks are a lot more stable.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So the police never fired a single round at either shooter? Don't put words on my keyboard.  The cops fired at them from outside the school, near the beginning of the whole thing.  They never had the chance to engage them INSIDE the school. Your post made it sound as if they never engaged the shooters, and that that had to be why there were LE bullet holes inside the building. What I said was, the cops were shooting into a building where they knew innocent kids were, when they had no clear idea of where the bad guys were or how many of them there were. Even with the back pedal, you remain WRONG. As Gardner stepped out of his patrol car, Eric Harris turned his attention from shooting into the west doors of the high school to the student parking lot and to the deputy. Gardner, particularly visible in the bright yellow shirt of the community resource officer uniform, was the target of Harris’ bullets. Harris fired about 10 shots from his rifle at Gardner before his gun jammed. Although Gardner’s patrol car was not hit by bullets, two vehicles that he was parked behind were hit by Harris’ gunfire. Investigators later found two bullet holes in each of the cars. Officer Exchanges Gunfire Gardner, seeing Harris working with his gun, leaned over the top of the car and fired four shots. He was 60 yards from the gunman. Harris spun hard to the right and Gardner momentarily thought he had hit him. Seconds later, Harris began shooting again at the deputy.

It wasn't a backpedal and nothing you just said contradicts what I said.

Quoted: Quoted: What I said was, the cops were shooting into a building where they knew innocent kids were, when they had no clear idea of where the bad guys were or how many of them there were. You said, and I quote: "Quoted: Shooting blindly into a building where you know innocent civilians are located, when you haven't actually seen or been shot at by the opposition AIN'T professional." You also said that bullet holes inside the building must have come from LE firing blindly because by the time they entered the school, K & H were already dead. My earlier post already addressed that, disproved your comments and showed that you are wrong.

No, it did not.  You gave examples of cops shooting from outside the building.

Quoted: MAN!! Talk about revisionist history.  RikWriter, if you are going to argue a point it would be helpful to actually know something about the incident.   Tagged for proof of RikWriter's claims.  Until that very unlikely event I'm returning to the fishing forums. Those folks are a lot more stable.

What "claims?"  I make no claims, I only go by what the reports of the incident said.

Quoted: No, it did not.  You gave examples of cops shooting from outside the building.

If they are shooting from OUTSIDE the building, then they are shooting INTO the building, which could very well explain any LE bullet holes. Secondly, them firing from OUTSIDE the building ( as you now acknowledge) goes directly against your earlier comments that the officers never engaged H & K, and speaks directly to your charge that the LEOs were firing blindly and not at anything that was firing at them.

As you have yet to post a source for your claim, I have to dismiss your belief as misinformed heresay. Study the incident before you post your opinion again, please.

Quoted: Quoted: I think that is the problem.  Apparently he does think that any action or lack of action by police IS unquestionable.  I might be wrong, but that is the impression given by the responses in this thread. - Far from it.

You say "far from it", yet all anyone has to do is read your posts.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Everyone is a hero and a general when  away from the perimeter Questioning a combat vet, nice. I never realized that combat vets are on an unquestionable pedestal.

Now you've been learn't!

Quoted: Run to the sound of the guns!!

Actually yes. The first responders now (at least in some agencies) will form a team of 3, 4, 5 officers and go in to engage the shooter. No more wait for SWAT while people die.

Okay, I knew I HAD read this, just had to dig it up.
This came from the NY Times, but I originally read it elsewhere.

TERROR IN LITTLETON: THE TEACHER; As They Mourn, They Are Left to Wonder  

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By DIRK JOHNSON (NYT) 923 words
Published: April 28, 1999

LITTLETON, Colo., April 27 - For more than three hours, William David Sanders lay dying on a classroom floor.
Terrified students with cell phones called frantically for an ambulance for the teacher, who was shot while helping students flee gunfire in the Columbine High School cafeteria last Tuesday. They used their shirts as bandages for his wounds. And they hung a sign out a window: ''HELP, BLEEDING TO DEATH.''


When the police finally arrived, about three and a half hours after the first shots were fired, Mr. Sanders, who was known as Dave, was beyond help. He died as he was being carried out of the classroom.

The teacher's family has raised questions about the police response, especially the long wait in sending rescuers into the classroom.

''Some of his daughters are angry,'' said Melody Smith, a sister-in-law of Mr. Sanders. ''They feel like, had they gone in and gotten Dave out sooner, he would have lived.''

Law-enforcement officials say they did not send the police sooner into the second-floor classroom because they feared that the gunmen were still shooting inside the building. Sacrificing the lives of police officers would not have helped anyone, said Sgt. Jim Parr of the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department.

''You just can't run blindly down a hallway, not knowing that you're running by doors that may contain gunmen,'' Sergeant Parr said. ''They also had bombs to deal with.''

It now appears that the gunmen, Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, did all of their shooting and then committed suicide within a matter of minutes after beginning their assault around 11:25 A.M., said Steve Davis, a spokesman for the sheriff's office. The gunshots inside the building for the next two hours, he said, were probably ''cover fire'' to protect the police dashing into the building.

The family does not blame the rescuers themselves, Ms. Smith said, but questions whether law-enforcement agencies have an effective policy for such a crisis. In fact, members of the tactical unit were invited to Mr. Sanders's funeral as an expression of support and gratitude. All of them attended the services, which drew some 3,000 mourners at Trinity Christian Center here on Monday.

''We want them to know we do not blame them,'' Ms. Smith said. ''But the family wants to sit down and ask some questions.''

In the view of the Sanders family, she said, the response to the ambush did not seem to be well-organized. ''It was utter chaos,'' she added. ''We want some policies changed so that this doesn't happen to the next guy.''

Sergeant Parr said the SWAT team had been going from room to room inside the school, breaking down locked doors that had been barricaded by the frightened students. When they reached the science classroom where Mr. Sanders lay dying, he said, the police rescued 60 students first. After that, two officers started to carry the teacher out. ''There's only so much you can do,'' Sergeant Parr said.

The police have described Mr. Sanders as a hero whose bravery in charging into the gun-smoked cafeteria, then herding some 200 students upstairs, probably saved the lives of many students. Mr. Sanders was hit by two bullets as he guided students toward the science classroom. He stumbled into the room, then fell on a desk and broke a tooth.

One of the students in the classroom, Aaron Hancey, a junior, knows some first aid, and paramedics talked to him over the phone about life-saving techniques. As Mr. Sanders's temperature fell, the students wrapped the teacher in a blanket. Two of the boys took off their shirts and held them against the bullet wounds, trying to stanch the bleeding.

When Mr. Sanders became weak from a loss of blood, the students took out his wallet and held up photographs of his family in an effort to keep him conscious. Near the end, he told the students he did not think he could last much longer. ''Tell my daughters that I love them,'' he said.

Angela Sanders, one of his three daughters, read an open letter to her father at the funeral service. ''What you did in that school Tuesday was an amazing act of heroism,'' she said. ''The rest of the family and I will make sure your grandchildren never forget you.''

Mr. Sanders, 48, a native of Indiana who played baseball at Chadron State University in Nebraska, was a business teacher and coached girls' basketball and softball. Every year he published a sports program, with a list of imperatives he called the Definite Dozen, urging the students to be responsible and loyal.

Pete Mazula, a firefighter whose daughter attends Columbine High School, delivered a letter to Mr. Sanders's house today. ''Because of your selfless act, you saved my little girl,'' he wrote. ''You gave up your life to save hers, and because of that I am able to hug and kiss her every day.''

MY only concern would be target identification.  K They had a report of an unknown number of students shooting up the place.  If the cops went in, how would they know where the suspects were, what they looked like, etc?  What happens when the cops hose down some fleeing students because they couldn't identify their targets?

Quoted: Quoted: Before Columbine, few, if any shooters were still active when the police arrived. Most had been previously subdued or stopped on their own. Columbine presented a new scenario which the police were totally unprepared for. Now, there are few police departments that don't have a plan for active shooters. This can be compared to the events of 9-11. Before 9-11, the thing to do if your plane was hijacked was keep your mouth shut, your head down, and go home alive. Now few people would expect to survive a hijacking, and many would resist. Big +1. By the way, a lot of you act like children.

+2 (on the original response AND on tdogg's assessment)

What do some of you expect?  A perfect response to each and every situation that presents itself?  That just isn't living in reality.  Cops, armies, disaster recovery agencies, etc. all respond as they have been trained.  When they make mistakes, the good ones analyze the entire event, acknowledge their mistakes, and work to correct their future responses.  That's all we can ask.  We cannot ask them to forsee every possible circumstance BEFORE it takes place.

Quoted: Everyone is a hero and a general when  away from the perimeter

Not only did this man win two medals in Vietnam, he stayed (And died) in the World Trade Center helping people get out...


I'd be banned for saying what I want to you...

Quoted: Quoted: Everyone is a hero and a general when  away from the perimeter Not only did this man win two medals in Vietnam, he stayed (And died) in the World Trade Center helping people get out... I'd be banned for saying what I want to you...

And you noticed none of them have responded since I posted the words of the police spokesman confirming what I said:  the cops were performing recon by fire.  They were laying down covering fire inside the building long after the killers were dead, shooting at nothing.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I think that is the problem.  Apparently he does think that any action or lack of action by police IS unquestionable.  I might be wrong, but that is the impression given by the responses in this thread. - Far from it. You say "far from it", yet all anyone has to do is read your posts.

- Actually you are wrong.  I'm offering my views on why something occured/didn't occur  just like everyone else.  If I felt someone's actions weren't questionable I'd offer one of the typical "You werent there STFU" comments.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Everyone is a hero and a general when  away from the perimeter Not only did this man win two medals in Vietnam, he stayed (And died) in the World Trade Center helping people get out... I'd be banned for saying what I want to you... And you noticed none of them have responded since I posted the words of the police spokesman confirming what I said:  the cops were performing recon by fire.  They were laying down covering fire inside the building long after the killers were dead, shooting at nothing.

Some of us do you jobs and other things to attend to.

Anyways, that is the first time I've heard that said. Each of the breakdowns I've seen on Columbine all listed the shooters' death times around noon. I'll see if I can track down the NTOA's report on what occured and see if it mirrors that.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Everyone is a hero and a general when  away from the perimeter Not only did this man win two medals in Vietnam, he stayed (And died) in the World Trade Center helping people get out... I'd be banned for saying what I want to you... And you noticed none of them have responded since I posted the words of the police spokesman confirming what I said:  the cops were performing recon by fire.  They were laying down covering fire inside the building long after the killers were dead, shooting at nothing. Some of us do you jobs and other things to attend to. Anyways, that is the first time I've heard that said. Each of the breakdowns I've seen on Columbine all listed the shooters' death times around noon. I'll see if I can track down the NTOA's report on what occured and see if it mirrors that.

Even if the shooters were dead at 12:08 as I've read, the sheriff's office rep said the firing was going on for two hours past 11:25, which would be well after they comitted suicide.
Perhaps the spokesman well, misspoke, but I've never heard anyone address his statement or the timeline when the police ceased fire.  I HAVE heard that well over 1,100 rounds were expended during the incident, only about 200 of which can be traced to the killers.  That would be 900 rounds expended into a school full of innocent kids and teachers, none of which hit the bad guys.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Everyone is a hero and a general when  away from the perimeter Questioning a combat vet, nice. I never realized that combat vets are on an unquestionable pedestal.

Sure they are......John Kerry!