Quoted: I see what your saying, but I disagree.

You're not the first and surely won't be the last!

the rise in the number of concealed carry states and new laws allowing legal use of force for self defense make the social contract much more effective in those states.

The key is "in those states" Being in Illinois, I'm acutely aware of my inability to legally carry a loaded firearm

as an aside, our social contract takes into account that the punishment should fit the crime.   Rape has seldom ever been punished by death.   Its more often been the case that monetary damages were awarded or the rapist was flogged and/or castrated.  In some cultures the rapist is forced to marry his victim.

There's the rub. In Hobbs' day, life was much harsher and penalties for violations of the law were no exception. The chance of acquittal coupled with the perception that, even if meted out, the consequences are not severe, reduces the efficacy of the social contract. Many victims and witnesses are scared to testify because they fear reprisal. That strikes me as entirely backwards.

If victims were permitted to mete out the punishment that they saw fit, or were adequately equipped to protect themselves, the social contract would be much more effective, IMO. I'm not suggesting any practical solutions here, as I have none.  I only suggest that government tends to louse up anything it gets involved in, including social contract theory. Try arguing with that last one

You can drag the boy into church but you can't drag the church into the boy.

I pray for you, Steyr.

I dare you to learn something about Jesus Christ, from His book.  Tell me what you find.

Quoted: You can drag the boy into church but you can't drag the church into the boy.

There's a dirty joke in there somewhere.  

Quoted: Quoted: You can drag the boy into church but you can't drag the church into the boy. There's a dirty joke in there somewhere.

Be nice or god will strike you down

Quoted: Quoted: You lost me there. If there is no GOD, there is no Evil/GOOD - right/wrong - good/bad. the stupidity of that statement is astounding I take it you believe in right and wrong.   If you didn't believe in God would you behave like an animal? Anyone who is only held in check by fear of punishment isn't a good person.   They are simply animals in a cage. When the cage is removed you get what is happening now in NO.

I'll take it a little SLOWER this time.

If there is NO GOD to determine right and wrong, we are left to determine it ourselves.
However, Who cares what GOD says is right and wrong? BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE AFTER WE DIE FOR ALL OF ETERNITY, that does.
ok, that explains it from the "GOD side"

Now the side of man:

If we cannot be held accountable for our actions for all of eternity, then there is only temporary punishment.
I would get a benefit for raping Nicole Kidman, she wouldn't.
This would be Good for me, and Bad for her. Likewise, it would be "right" for me, and "wrong" for her.
Of course the only thing that could punish me for it, would be the rest of you hairless animals, but maybe I'll just recruit a couple thousand likeminded hairless animals that agree with me, and we will kick your asses and then determine what is "right and wrong".

What would be "wrong" with that?

How about...It's right for me to do anything, and wrong for you do do anything WE don't like..that's interesting.

...and for that matter, not allowing felons the right to vote is "wrong", because apparently what is "right" is only determined by a majority rule in society. You deny these "alternate thinking" people the ability to change the rules.
I bet a few million felons could change the way shit runs around here.

In your line of thinking we live in a country of "gang rule". The majority makes the rules.
But "rules" do not = right vs. wrong
Simply, don't do this, or we threaten you with this...

who said you are not a POS?

In any Godless scenario ther is NO SUCH THING as "absolute - right and wrong"

There is only...read it very carefully to understand:
"RIGHT for ME, and WRONG for ME
..this will vary from person to person.
Ironically..
Just about everything that is "right" for you, will be "wrong" for me

If there is no God, then there is no way that you or I can say what is right, or what is wrong.
After all, if there is no supreme arbiter, how can you ever tell me that I am wrong.
According to my value system, I'm right.

How can you claim a right to bear arms?
If there is no God, then there are no God given rights - only government granted privileges.

Quoted: In any Godless scenario ther is NO SUCH THING as "absolute - right and wrong" There is only...read it very carefully to understand: "RIGHT for ME, and WRONG for ME ..this will vary from person to person. Ironically.. Just about everything that is "right" for you, will be "wrong" for me

distributor_of_pain thinks that the basic human trait of empathy cannot exist, that people are incapable of caring how their actions affect other people, unless they embrace distributor_of_pain's brand of religion.

There are many paths to leading a good and decent life.  For many people throughout most of history, religion and the belief in a higher power has been that path.

For those of you who have deemed that there is no God, accept that and live on decently.  There is no need for pretentious mockery of others' closely-held beliefs.

For those of you who believe in God, accept that and live on decently.  There is no need to rebuke others or to condemn them to the damnation you believe in.

OR GOD WILL SPANK YOU ALL.

well, I beleive that a little religion in schools would not be a bad thing, so long as it was voluntary, none of this forcing kids to go Jihad bullshit.  That all said I think society woudl be far better off if we got to see looters, thieves, rapists and murderers swinging, Hell, there was a time if you entered a town and soemone had done soemthing really despicable you woudl see them (alive or dead) hanging in a cage on the outskirts (or at a crossroads)


Sometimes the old ways are the best ways

Quoted: Quoted: In any Godless scenario ther is NO SUCH THING as "absolute - right and wrong" There is only...read it very carefully to understand: "RIGHT for ME, and WRONG for ME ..this will vary from person to person. Ironically.. Just about everything that is "right" for you, will be "wrong" for me distributor_of_pain thinks that the basic human trait of empathy cannot exist, that people are incapable of caring how their actions affect other people, unless they embrace distributor_of_pain's brand of religion.

No, I don't.
I just point out that it is as meaningless as any other emotion that a hairless animal could have.


ETA: can you give it meaning? I don't think so.
Therefore it is irrelivent.
Actually, it is a sign of weakness, we need to stamp out weakness. You are bringing down all of us...oh how far does the rabbit hole go?

Quoted: If there is no God, then there is no way that you or I can say what is right, or what is wrong....

Sure we can:  I say you are wrong.

...How can you claim a right to bear arms? If there is no God, then there are no God given rights - only government granted privileges.

Rights are ultimately determined by consensus.  In our system all rights exist except those which have been curtailed through due process of law, which is the application of consensus and tradition.

Quoted: Quoted: ... distributor_of_pain thinks that the basic human trait of empathy cannot exist, that people are incapable of caring how their actions affect other people, unless they embrace distributor_of_pain's brand of religion. No, I don't. I just point out that it is as meaningless as any other emotion that a hairless animal could have.

It's as meaningful or meaningless as we make it.  I don't know whether or not God exists, therefore the locus of accountability is on me for everything I do and all the consequences thereof.  I do care about other people, distributor_of_pain.  I care about you, I care about my family, friends, neighbors, people in other places, and future generations.

Funny....

I thought being a Christian was about freedom from the punishment of sin, and the freedom to live without guilt.

Guilt and the fear of an angry God are not what causes true Christians to act the way they do.

Quoted: In any Godless scenario ther is NO SUCH THING as "absolute - right and wrong" There is only...read it very carefully to understand: "RIGHT for ME, and WRONG for ME ..this will vary from person to person. Ironically.. Just about everything that is "right" for you, will be "wrong" for me

fortunately your scenario doesn't exist in the real world.

I can define a scenario where I say there is no absolute up and down.   Its unrealistic when viewed from our frame of reference.  

Right for me and wrong for me is a selfish ethic.  Its one of the lowest forms of ethical behaviour and is a form of anarchism.

The golden rule is an ethical statement that has been restated in almost every religion/philosophy.   Even the ones that don't have a belief in God.

Because you define morality a certain way doesn't make it fact.   An atheist's morals can be all about me/me, but so can a believer's.     Trying to tie morals into a belief in God is a fool's errand.  You seem very qualified, so carry on.

Quoted: Quoted: In any Godless scenario ther is NO SUCH THING as "absolute - right and wrong" There is only...read it very carefully to understand: "RIGHT for ME, and WRONG for ME ..this will vary from person to person. Ironically.. Just about everything that is "right" for you, will be "wrong" for me distributor_of_pain thinks that the basic human trait of empathy cannot exist, that people are incapable of caring how their actions affect other people, unless they embrace distributor_of_pain's brand of religion.

yeah, sad isn't it

Quoted: If there is no God, then there is no way that you or I can say what is right, or what is wrong. After all, if there is no supreme arbiter, how can you ever tell me that I am wrong. According to my value system, I'm right. How can you claim a right to bear arms? If there is no God, then there are no God given rights - only government granted privileges.

bah that smacks of silopsism

Pretty much every civilization agrees that murder is wrong (they may not all agree what constitutes murder, but that is a different argument)

Moral universalism is a perfectly valid viewpoint.


The right to keep and bear arms is recognized by our Constitution, its a natural right whose existence I can defend as well as any theist can defend the existence of God.

I prefer to have faith in ideas that have meaning, instead of a meaningless concept of God.   To each his own.

Quoted: Funny.... I thought being a Christian was about freedom from the punishment of sin, and the freedom to live without guilt. Guilt and the fear of an angry God are not what causes true Christians to act the way they do.

It would seem you are wrong, at least in the case of DOP

That sounds like, "Do unto others as you would have done unto you".  I wonder who came up with that first?

Quoted: Quoted: Funny.... I thought being a Christian was about freedom from the punishment of sin, and the freedom to live without guilt. Guilt and the fear of an angry God are not what causes true Christians to act the way they do. It would seem you are wrong, at least in the case of DOP

If being a Christian means I am scared of God, couldn't I be scared without being a Christian?

Quoted: There are many paths to leading a good and decent life.  For many people throughout most of history, religion and the belief in a higher power has been that path. For those of you who have deemed that there is no God, accept that and live on decently.  There is no need for pretentious mockery of others' closely-held beliefs. For those of you who believe in God, accept that and live on decently.  There is no need to rebuke others or to condemn them to the damnation you believe in. OR GOD WILL SPANK YOU ALL. img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-3/963911/GOD.jpg

Perhaps the best religious-related post in the history of ARFCOM.

Whenever a religious thread is locked this should be posted last.

Amen.

In aggregate I think there is a drive to balance order and chaos within most higher mamillian species, not just in physics.

Look at all the ritualized mating fights where there's a lot of noise and flash but when it comes down to it little damage done. No one wins if everyone is injured in a drag-down fight to the death. Even among animals there is a limited social contract: "I come on your turf, you snarf a bit, I snarf a bit, I leave."

Unfortunately I see modern technology as a tool that will enable a few to oppress the many where before such control with a large disparity in numbers would have been unthinkable in our founding fathers' time. At the same time the desparation of evil men has created havoc on our planet unthinkable in prior generations using similar technologies.

We're quickly coming to a time when we're on camera, RFID networks and cell tracking most of our waking lives for "our security". God help us with what comes after that. I believe in law and order, just not with a probe shoved up my butt or having my every waking moment logged in a population control database.

Quoted: Anyone who is only held in check by fear of punishment isn't a good person.   They are simply animals in a cage. When the cage is removed you get what is happening now in NO.

+1.
Kind of the opposite of the "good men doing nothing" and letting evil prevail.

Whether the punishment is social, criminal, or spiritual... the presence of a metaphysical 'stick' being the primary motivator in keeping someone from doing wrong (defined for this argument as "performing an action that they would not want performed upon themselves")  reduces them to a reactive animal.




Or at least a toddler.

I'm on record as agreeing with MRW in his posts. I think he hit the nail on the head.

I am sorry but being religious does not equate to being a good person.  Not being religious does not mean you are going to be a bad person.  I know plenty of people, myself included that are not Christians we have not commited any crimes against other people and treat other people with the respect that they deserve.  I know some of the Christians here are good people, some of them I would call friends however they are wrong in the belief that just because you are not a Christain makes you an evil person.  I don't need a book telling me how to live, I know what is right and what is wrong based on how I want to be treated and what my consience tells me is right.  That is what makes someone person-Atheist, Agnostic and Christians included.

Quoted: I pray for you, Steyr. I dare you to learn something about Jesus Christ, from His book.  Tell me what you find.

I actually know a good bit about Christ, Christianity, etc.

And I even find myself in agreement with many of the teachings and philosophy.

The problem is this. I don't believe the Hebrew God actually exists. As a consequence I don't think Jesus was the Son of that Hebrew God.

And that means the BEST I can ever hope to be is a false Christian. And I don't see the point in that.

Quoted: If there is no God, then there is no way that you or I can say what is right, or what is wrong. After all, if there is no supreme arbiter, how can you ever tell me that I am wrong. According to my value system, I'm right. How can you claim a right to bear arms? If there is no God, then there are no God given rights - only government granted privileges.

Another ridiculous argument. Nowhere in the Constitution is God mentioned at ALL. Our citizen rights come from "We the people.." Now some idiot is bound to say if these rights are given by man they can be taken away by man. Well that is the POINT of the Constitution, those rights are INVIOLATE and that is why our country is a CONSTITUTIONALY PROTECTED Republic. That is what that means.

Now the God given rights you refer to are universal rights of all men mentioned in the Declaration of Independence and those rights are "Life, liberty and the persuit of happiness." Those are the rights of all men everywhere according to the DoI which was the basis for creating our country but NOT the rights of the Constitution.

One document has to do with universal rights, the other document is specifically the rights of US citizens. This is why German citizens do NOT have the universal right to redress OUR government for grievences. That is a right specific to a US citizen ONLY as enumerated in the Bill of Rights within the Constitution which come from, again..."We the people..."

Now certainly some rights overlap. Freedom of expression from the BoR could easily be covered by "Liberty" in the DoI and that would mean such a freedom "should" be a universal right and granted by the Creator according to the DoI. But this is not true of all rights and a "Creator" is most certainly NOT the basis for the citizen rights of the Constitution by it's very wording.

Quoted: That sounds like, "Do unto others as you would have done unto you".  I wonder who came up with that first?

Sure does. And again, I often find myself in complete agreement with many teachings of various religions. I just don't believe in the Big Invisible Guy.

I believe that there has to be some (one? thing?) up there.

Humans are way too effective at killing ourselves / each other to have made it this long without some kind of divine intervention keeping us from offing everybody on the planet.

Steyr, I have to mention that you have fielded every argument with every poster in this thread with indefensible logic and reason, and it hasn't budged them one fraction of an inch.

The reason for this should be a painful reminder to Christians, especially conservative ones that you're not so different from liberals.

What do we say when arguing with antis? They "feel" instead of think.

Why can't the completely obvious sink in here with those of faith?

Because you're "feeling" about right and wrong, and Steyr is thinking about it.

Right and wrong are not products of religion, nor of God. If they were, then athiests would be the most violent, depraved members of society and they are not. Conversely, no Christians would ever sit on death row, in prison for child molestation, or live in sin.

Ehh there are  quite a few very good posts in this thread this was not one of them so I edit
anyway........ Live long and prosper

Men are morally depraved, not deprived.  Men are born corrupt because of the Fall--sin entering the world.  This condition continues throughout life, and at anytime during our life we can be held accountable for our spiritual state before a Holy God--that is why we need a savior--the only pure, spotless propitiation available is Jesus Christ.

We are all born w/ a sense of divinity in our hearts.  This is where the realization of the difference b/w good and bad arise.

At the same time, foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child.  This is why we discipline our children or should--if this is abdicated by primaryily the parents (possibly society) they become a willing party to his death.  (This teaching comes from Proverbs--yeah, it's in the Bible)


If we become saved (John 3:3), it does not perfect our actions while on earth, but it brings us into a redeemed(spiritual) state before God.  The Apostle Paul talked about 'doing what he did not want to do, because sin is right there w/ him'.  We all have the 'seeds' of every form of malice, deceit, murder, envy, sexual immorality, etc w/in our hearts--(we are all capable of committing these acts--if we happen not to, that is just the grace of God protecting us).
This act of salvation is not one that we conjure up--it is the whole work of grace--thru Jesus Christ.

Psalm 14:1 (English Standard Version) "A fool says in his heart there is no God"

Forgot to add:

read about--This is why "Bad things don't happen to good people"--there are no good people--we are all basically bad!

Quoted: Men are morally depraved, not deprived..........

Well said, JHill.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Atheists are much more dangerous than fundamentalist Muslims. Atheists are attempting to destroy religion which means the damnation of ALL of humanity. Radical Muslims only kill individuals who "if Christian" will still go to heaven. Scary part is there are a LOT of folks who actually buy that shit. [Lumberg] Yeah...Mmmmm... Going to have to kinda disagree with you on that...[Lumberg] While I would concede there are plenty of wacko atheists out there trying to tear down religion, I also believe there are plenty of wacko christians, muslisms, flying spaghetti monster believers, etc. pushing their own beliefs to an extreme... Personally, I don't consider myself more dangerous that Bin Laden.   EPOCH Might wanna re read that last line.

Yeap.....last I checked, I haven't eaten any babies.
Today at least

-Storm

Quoted: Forgot to add: read about--This is why "Bad things don't happen to good people"--there are no good people--we are all basically bad!

No we aren't, or thankfully not most of us. And just because some old Hebrew book says so doesn't make it true.

Quoted: People who are treated like animals act like animals. People who are not respected do not respect others.

You left a couple out.

People who are treated like children act like children

People who are treated like adults.....well, there's where the SHTF...

Quoted: Quoted: People who are treated like animals act like animals. People who are not respected do not respect others. You left a couple out. People who are treated like children act like children People who are treated like adults.....well, there's where the SHTF...

And then there is...

People who ACT like animals are seen as animals.

People who LACK respect do not deserve respect.

Quoted: I am sorry but being religious does not equate to being a good person.

No, it does not. Muslim terrorists are "religious" too.

Not being religious does not mean you are going to be a bad person.

No, it does not necessarily equate to being a bad person.

I know plenty of people, myself included that are not Christians we have not commited any crimes against other people and treat other people with the respect that they deserve. I know some of the Christians here are good people, some of them I would call friends however they are wrong in the belief that just because you are not a Christain makes you an evil person.

Outside the context of Christian theology, being a non-Christian does not make someone evil.

I don't need a book telling me how to live, I know what is right and what is wrong based on how I want to be treated and what my consience tells me is right.

This is where you hit the wall.

Human beings do not develop values in a vaccum. The ideas we consider common sense in America are NOT common sense if you examine history and are not widespread. A lot of what we consider virtues in America are a direct result of Biblical influence. Whether people admit it or not, the Bible has had a PROFOUND impact on the development of western civilization and American ideas in particular.

Freedom as conceived by the Founders was not license to do whatever one wished. Freedom as they understood it was meant for a people who were able and willing to govern themselves. They had internal moral conviction and principle that they would not voilate. For many this core set of convictions is lifted directly from the pages of the Bible. Indeed, many of the founders were not just familiar with the Bible, but a good many of the men who attended the Constitutional Convention were themselves ministers of the Christian faith. Even those who were not Christians could find very little to disagree with in genuine Christian virtue.

It is the Christian idea of virtue that has shaped much of our society. Having sex with children wouldn't be incompatible with being a good Roman citizen back in the days of the empire, but sex with children is deplorable in American society. Why? Because the Christian idea of the family has shaped America's view on children.

The trouble with our society is that as we have increasingly tried to remove Christianity from the public square, the virtues that go with it have also been forced out. Without those virtues, the Republic cannot survive. We cannot exist long as a Republic if the society lives its collective life in flagrant violation of the ethics you find in Christianity.

In a blind fuming rage at religious expression that they find offensive, some sectors of society have done their best to dismantle anything they perceive as even remotely Christian and to cast it as far away from the public square as possible. The ten commandments, for instance, is a pretty good set of moral rules by any standard. Yet they cannot be taught and upheld as values in front of children because some find that offensive....

What people fail to understand is that liberalism itself is the great evil of our day. It urges men to cast off all restraint and attempts to redefine the core values of soceity to the point that the Republic can no longer endure. To the liberal mind there is nothing wrong with taking one man's hard earned wages and handing them to someone who refuses to work. To the liberal mind there is nothing wrong with destroying someone else's property because you don't like their politics or deem what they are selling to be offensive such as the enviro-terrorists. To the liberal mind any action is excusable if the person says the right things in public. The only moral evil they acknowledge is disagreeing with them. The man who murders but claims to be opressed is spoken of with compassion and kindness, while the man who demands that the murderer receive justice is considered worse than the criminal.  

People err when they get worried about the "religious right" and side with the looney tunes who would redefine the core values of our society to promote their own personal power. They allow their own personal disbelief to blind them to the real evil being done to them.

Our schools don't need to teach Christianity. But they DO need to teach virtues that are identifiable as Christian. Our society does not need to pledge allegiance to the Cross. But our society DOES need to uphold the ideas and virtues that have been the foundation of our Republic from the beginning, even if many of those ideas and virtues are Christian.

Exposure to Christian ideas and virtues does not guarantee that any individual will be virtuous, but the more those values are upheld, the more people will govern their lives by them. Casting them off will produce increasingly debased behavior in the populace until finally we are reduced again to the many being ruled by the few at the point of a bayonet.

People can disagree with the Bible all they wish. But the fact remains that without many of the ideas contained in the Bible being in the majority of our population, our nation is doomed. Law and justice belong to virtuous and moral people and are only truly suitable for such people.

Had Christian ideals been taught daily in the schools in N.O., and had the whole community valued and cherrished those ideals as sacred and foundational to their lives, the horror we have watched on the news lately would not have happened. Instead, you would see the community pulling together and helping each other as you did in several other communities where you WILL find that they have upheld better values.

THAT is the point.

I am a politically active fundamentalist Christian who believes the Bible is the Divinely Inspired Word of God. I govern my life and ideas by the principles in that book and do my very best to exhibit the charachter of Jesus Christ.

The liberal loonies would have you believe that because of that, I am a threat to you and to all our society stands for. What is troubling is that some on this site and in this nation actually BELIEVE such nonsense.

I have no intention of setting up a theocracy, and yet I am REGULARLY accused of that on THIS SITE.

Why? Because too many have been drinking the libbie kool-aid for too long. They have become unable to see that it is the liberals who would redefine society to advance their own personal power and vices, while I encourage holding to the values that have made our Republic possible merely because I want to remain free and I want others to remain free.

Quoted: No we aren't, or thankfully not most of us.

Virtue and nobility do not exist in a vaccum. You got those values from SOMEWHERE.

And just because some old Hebrew book says so doesn't make it true.

That old Hebrew book accurately details human nature and accurately predicts the consequences of casting off the moral code it advocates.

Quoted: People who are treated like animals act like animals. People who are not respected do not respect others.

IMO THAT one is backwards.

First you respect others, THEN you get respect.

Quoted: Steyr, I have to mention that you have fielded every argument with every poster in this thread with indefensible logic and reason, and it hasn't budged them one fraction of an inch. The reason for this should be a painful reminder to Christians, especially conservative ones that you're not so different from liberals.

Ya.

Sure.

Whatever you say.

What do we say when arguing with antis? They "feel" instead of think. Why can't the completely obvious sink in here with those of faith? Because you're "feeling" about right and wrong, and Steyr is thinking about it. Right and wrong are not products of religion, nor of God. If they were, then athiests would be the most violent, depraved members of society and they are not. Conversely, no Christians would ever sit on death row, in prison for child molestation, or live in sin.

You confuse the knowledge of principle with the living of said principle.

You also make gross oversimplification. Whatever virtues we hold as a society/community of faith/neighborhood watch group/etc there will always be some who do not live by them.

The problem is that if right and wrong are allowed to be negotiable then there IS no more core defining principles society can hold to, and that leads to the monsterous chapters in human history such as the Holocaust and the Stalinist purges.

It was possible to be a good Roman and abuse children and murder slaves. It was possible to be a good German and murder jews. It was possible to be a good Soviet and murder dissidents. Their morality developed around what they wanted to do. That is called moral relativism, and it is the path to unmentionable horror.

Quoted: This is where you hit the wall. Human beings do not develop values in a vaccum. The ideas we consider common sense in America are NOT common sense if you examine history and are not widespread. A lot of what we consider virtues in America are a direct result of Biblical influence. Whether people admit it or not, the Bible has had a PROFOUND impact on the development of western civilization and American ideas in particular.

Well said.  

My only disagreement with your post is that it is not Christian values alone that allow a good society, but SOME set of firm moral values are required.  There are good people and decent governments based on values outside strictly Christian values.  However liberalisim wants no restraint, no limits, freedom to do anything at odds with the 'oppressive' culture.  They can't settle on a common identity because they all want thier wishes indulged and opposing thought crushed.   No matter what the framework it can't survive that.

Anybody ever read Dawkins? Interesting food for this discussion.
I read the "Selfish Gene" some years ago and I dont advocate his theorys but he makes some interesting points.

From Wikpedia:

Different definitions of the meme generally agree, very roughly, that a meme consists of some sort of a self-propagating unit of cultural evolution having a resemblance to the gene (the unit of genetics). Dawkins introduced the term after writing that evolution depended not on the particular chemical basis of genetics, but only on the existence of a self-replicating unit of transmission—in the case of biological evolution, the gene. For Dawkins, the meme exemplifies another self-replicating unit, and most importantly, one which he thought would prove useful in explaining human behavior and cultural evolution. The smiley exemplifies what some might consider a visual meme. Anyone who has seen a smiley can copy, reproduce, or modify it and then show it to others.In casual use, the term meme often refers to any piece of information passed from one mind to another. This usage more closely resembles the analogy of "language as a virus" than Dawkins' analogy of memes as replicating units. This definition has come into popular use on the Internet to refer to phenomena such as Obey Giant, "All your base are belong to us", Blogebrity and Icy Hot Stuntaz.

Quoted: Quoted: No we aren't, or thankfully not most of us. Virtue and nobility do not exist in a vaccum. You got those values from SOMEWHERE.

Yup, a self aware mind that has the ability to REASON and LEARN from experience. No magical faries required.

Quoted: That old Hebrew book accurately details human nature and accurately predicts the consequences of casting off the moral code it advocates.

Nostradumass predicted all these things as well.