Imagine . . .

It's 2025 and our worst nightmares have come true. After a series of horrific school shootings and a string of DC sniper style attacks, the vast majority of Americans have decided that the best policy is complete disarmament of the general population.  With the overwhelming support of the military, police, and John Q Public all Americans outside of uniform are forbidden to own any firearm.

A new amendment to the Constitution nullifies the 2nd Amendment.  Because of advances in technology it is impossible to hide your weapons, no matter how deep or remotely you bury them.  Police collect the weapons peacefully from the majority of folks . . .  those that resist are brutally eliminated along with their families.  Many ARFCommers lie cold in their graves, while many have surrendered their weapons in order to save their families from execution at the hands of the disarmament squads.  After the second amendment is gone, several others fall . . . but the vast majority of the population is satisfied with the newest reality TV shows and are fairly happy with their lot.  Liberty is dead and buried in the United States of America.  It's resurrection will take many generations.

The above scenario has actually been acted out in various forms several times through history.  The exact situations may have been different, but the concept of a core group of people that are yearning for freedom under the yoke of a "pleasant tyranny" has repeated itself many times.  Examples include the Old Believers in Russia or the Puritans from England.  The major difference is that in the past, the dissenting groups could move to unexplored lands and create a society that matches their personal visions of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

But the world is not like it was in 1492.  There are no major unexplored continents.  Even now in 2005, powerful international organizations have invested unimaginable amounts of resources and energy in the maintenence of the status quo . . . any attempt to change borders would result in "police actions" against the offenders.  Most other nations already have laws that we would consider as abhorrent as our fictional future.

There would be nowhere for liberty loving folks to go and create their own societies - to raise their children in the shelter of liberty.

It is for this reason that I think that the supporters of the 2nd Amendment and liberty should be on the front line pushing for the furtherance of manned space flight.  One day, space travel will become the same safety valve for society that the New World was in the Age of Discovery.  This hypothesis is supported by both fact and history.

In the Age of Discovery, when most of the world outside of Europe was "discovered" and conquered by European settlers, the initial push was from military and governmental agencies that were attempting to protect their supply and trade routes.  Great ocean going fleets were created and navigational skills were learned that had the immediate effect of increasing the military strength of the nation, but had the secondary effect of creating technologies that would allow ships to sail out of the sight of land and reliably maintain a course and a heading.  

After the discovery of the New World, the initial quest was financial.  A shorter route to India, the gold of the Incas, the Fountain of Youth - these were the drivers of the first explorers.  Financed by both private and public causes, these adventurers opened up the land for settlement.  After the establishment of a rudimentary infrastructure the first real settlers began to arrive.  The vast majority of these folks were people who had nothing to lose at home . . . the 15th century version of our fictional mid 21st century American.

Most of us cannot imagine the risk that most of the early settlers took in coming to the New World.  It was, for most, a one way trip fraught with horrific dangers.  Disease, hunger, attacks by unfriendly natives . . . the foks that came to the New World did so from desperation for the most part.  Crossing an ocean in the 15th century was several orders of magnitude more relatively complex and dangerous than any Apollo mission or shuttle flight.   To most of the people that came here, it was a one way trip to the moon.

When the nearby planets are finally opened up for settlement, they will be settled by hardy settler stock - folks with nothing to lose at home and a burning desire to establish their own version of the perfect society.  The industrialization of space and inevitable march of scientific progress in our capitalistic society will make it possible and most importantly affordable.  The average Joe Six Pack wil NOT be inclined to leave his safe and sleepy existance for the likelyhood of horrible death by means of starvation or other extra-terra dangers.  The governments that they are leaving will be HAPPY to see them go.  The first real pioneers of the next age of discovery will be OUR spiritual great-grandchildren.

Once they get a foothold, the normal course of history shows us that eventually they will win their independence from the "mother country" and will create their own nations, true to the beliefs and ideals that we are now instilling in them.

The nature of humantiy and the witness of history show that this is the most likely scenario, as long as the ability to escape exists.  We all can see that eventually liberty will be lost in this country.  One has only to look at the last one hundred years and the steady erosion of the value of personal rights and private property to understand that although we may stall the end, we will not prevent it.  Perhaps not in our lifetime or in our childerns childrens lifeetime, but eventual the forces that oppose liberty will win.  It is our duty to plan for this eventuality and create an escape mechanism that will allow our spiritual children to find a place to create the world that we dream of.

How?  With your votes and with your words.  Support manned space flight and vote for politicians that support it.  Invest in companies that are developing this technology.  And most of all, instill in your children those hardy settler values that will be the foundation of the free societies that will exist in the New New World.

What do you all think?  

Disconnector

Too long,  didnt seem worth it.

Supporting 2nd Amendment is a no brainer,  dont need anyone explaining it in a long post about colonizing space,  protecting from other colonies and planets.

Yup, then it will become easier to make what was once a long and dangerous trip safe.  The population in the new "free" worlds will become complacent and demand all the same crap they do now.  Then they will gladly flush their freedom down the shitter if it will keep the entertainment and lattes coming.  Eventually it will be the same shit, different planet.  Then the push to travel to another galaxy for the same reasons.  Again the end will eventually be the same.  It's time to stop running and fight for our freedoms right here.

Ever seen the series Firefly?  Check it out, it's really good. Oh if I had a spaceship and somewhere to go....

Quoted: Ever seen the series Firefly?  Check it out, it's really good. Oh if I had a spaceship and somewhere to go....

+1. If I'm still alive by then, I want my own personal ship.

justifying space travel with firearm ownership?  Pfft.

All cargo is accounted for on space flights.
you think a Ar15 would make it on any space flight and go unknown or unregisterd somehow?


To me it sounds like it makes it easier for the new explorers to take your rifle.

Quoted: Quoted: Ever seen the series Firefly?  Check it out, it's really good. Oh if I had a spaceship and somewhere to go.... +1. If I'm still alive by then, I want my own personal ship.

You will be needing a crew for that ship.  



Vulcan94

tag

The space shuttle is a POS cash cow and always was.

NASA is totally mismanaged at this point.

Get the space program back on track and I'll support it.

In his book "Space Enterprise: Beyond NASA," space specialist David Gump calculates that even using NASA's own very low cost-per-flight figures in the 1980s, the cost to put a pound of payload into orbit on the shuttle was $6,000. That compares to an inflation-adjusted figure of only $3,800 for the Saturn V expendable launch vehicles that carried men to the moon.

But this analysis is too kind to the shuttle. Duke University Professor Alex Roland, taking into account shuttle-development costs that NASA ignores in its news releases, pegs the per-pound price at $20,000.

What a JOKE.

space exploration has enough obvious reasons for support... although some folks just dont see it...

Quoted: justifying space travel with firearm ownership?  Pfft. All cargo is accounted for on space flights. you think a Ar15 would make it on any space flight and go unknown or unregisterd somehow?

Ever heard of smuggling? When space travel becomes as commonplace as sea travel has become over the past 3 centuries, "registration" of all cargo (human and otherwise) will be an impossibility.

Within the past 40 years alone, several million "unregistered" Cubans managed to smuggle themselves into a new, freer country, in spite of the desires of their former government.

Quoted: Quoted: justifying space travel with firearm ownership?  Pfft. All cargo is accounted for on space flights. you think a Ar15 would make it on any space flight and go unknown or unregisterd somehow? Ever heard of smuggling? When space travel becomes as commonplace as sea travel has become over the past 3 centuries, "registration" of all cargo (human and otherwise) will be an impossibility. Within the past 40 years alone, several million "unregistered" Cubans managed to smuggle themselves into a new, freer country, in spite of the desires of their former government.

It is much easier to float cubans across an ocean than it is to launch them in space.

Weight and balance in aviation is very important. I would figure much more important in space travel. i think it would be safe to say, as sensitive as every aspect of space travel it would be hard to smuggle an 8 pound rifle with 10 pounds of ammunition on a space flight.

This guy must have just read "Freehold" by Michael Z. Williamson.  Exact same type scenario.

If the government ever becomes that tyrannical, what makes you think they're going to allow any of their subjects leave their hometown without permission, much less the planet?

Furthermore, if that happens by 2025 we're screwed.  Humans traveling to another earthlike planet (if such a thing even exists, mind you) is not going to happen for a long long time.

eta: Oh, and this new world was settled by hardy, can do it, freedom loving pioneers.  Too bad we (they're children) aren't.  What makes you think those new worlds would be any different?

Quoted: It is much easier to float cubans across an ocean than it is to launch them in space.

300 years ago, it was almost impossibly expensive for the average person to travel to another continent. Only governments had the resources to explore and colonize. A scant 75 years later, intercontinental travel for the average man was commonplace.

What makes you think that similar advancements in space travel won't occur over the next century?

Quoted: If the government ever becomes that tyrannical, what makes you think they're going to allow any of their subjects leave their hometown without permission, much less the planet?

"Allow" ain't got nothing to do with it. You think Castro "allowed" several million refugees to leave his country?

I think we need to make a stand and protect our freedoms here. A difficult as crossing the ocean in the 15th century was traveling to other planets is much more difficult because of the fuel required. None of the other planets in our solar system is habitable so that requires much more equipment. Travel to other solar systems is impossible with currently envisioned technology. Even nuclear powered spacecraft cannot travel to another solar system. Search for the "orion spacecraft" on the web for something interesting.

Quoted: Quoted: If the government ever becomes that tyrannical, what makes you think they're going to allow any of their subjects leave their hometown without permission, much less the planet? "Allow" ain't got nothing to do with it. You think Castro "allowed" several million refugees to leave his country?

Actually he did.  More than that, he emptied out the jails and insane asylums and shipped them over.

eta:  If the government ever became that trannical, what makes you think any private individuals would even be allowed to own spaceships?

Quoted: I think we need to make a stand and protect our freedoms here. A difficult as crossing the ocean in the 15th century was traveling to other planets is much more difficult because of the fuel required.

Again, you're missing the point: Historically, travel by ANY new method has been prohibitively expensive and unattainable for the average person - until it gradually became cheap and accessible enough for everyone to use. Why do you assume that space travel will be any different?

The average 19th century man might have dismissed space travel outright, due to the sheer amount of firewood needed to power the spaceship. Moral: Don't insist on applying 21st century solutions to 22nd century problems.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Ever seen the series Firefly?  Check it out, it's really good. Oh if I had a spaceship and somewhere to go.... +1. If I'm still alive by then, I want my own personal ship. You will be needing a crew for that ship.   Vulcan94

+1

Quoted: Quoted: I think we need to make a stand and protect our freedoms here. A difficult as crossing the ocean in the 15th century was traveling to other planets is much more difficult because of the fuel required. Again, you're missing the point: Historically, travel by ANY new method has been prohibitively expensive and unattainable for the average person - until it gradually became cheap and accessible enough for everyone to use. Why do you assume that space travel will be any different? The average 19th century man might have dismissed space travel outright, due to the sheer amount of firewood needed to power the spaceship. Moral: Don't insist on applying 21st century solutions to 22nd century problems.

There's also a reason that Canada isn't a majority ethnic French country today too.

France wouldn't allow the people who most wanted to leave to go to canada.  France preferred to keep their protestants where they could keep their boot on their neck.

Quoted: Actually he did.  More than that, he emptied out the jails and insane asylums and shipped them over.

You're ignoring 50 years of Cuban history, while focusing on one 2-week public relations event. Many of the inhabitants of those jails were people whose sole crime had been an attempt to escape Castro's "paradise" at some earlier point in their lives. Does the name 'Elien Gonzales' ring any bells?

If the government ever became that tyrannical, what makes you think any private individuals would even be allowed to own spaceships?

Did Castro's collective society "allow" his citizens to own boats? When space travel becomes as low-tech as sea travel currently is, it won't matter whether you are legally "allowed" to own some means of escaping tyranny - Many folks will attempt to escape in spite of the legal consequences.

Quoted: Too long,  didnt seem worth it. Supporting 2nd Amendment is a no brainer,  dont need anyone explaining it in a long post about colonizing space,  protecting from other colonies and planets.

+1

Quoted: Quoted: Actually he did.  More than that, he emptied out the jails and insane asylums and shipped them over. You're ignoring 50 years of Cuban history, while focusing on one 2-week public relations event. Many of the inhabitants of those jails were people whose sole crime had been an attempt to escape Castro's "paradise" at some earlier point in their lives. Does the name 'Elien Gonzales' ring any bells? If the government ever became that tyrannical, what makes you think any private individuals would even be allowed to own spaceships? Did Castro's collective society "allow" his citizens to own boats? When space travel becomes as low-tech as sea travel currently is, it won't matter whether you are legally "allowed" to own some means of escaping tyranny - Many folks will attempt to escape in spite of the legal consequences.

Most of the ones who escaped before that got away before Castro and the party held the nation in a tight grip.  How many have you heard of escaping recently?

And steam ships have been around for 170 years.  How come none of the refugees built those instead?  Most of the "boats" are improvised flotsam or makeshift rafts.

Building a driftboat out of scrap and building a spaceship from scrap are two entirely different things.  And no amount of "they'll be able to do it better in the future" will help the average oppressed peasant with hand tools build that spaceship.

Quoted: space exploration has enough obvious reasons for support... although some folks just dont see it...

+1000

Like any government subsidized industry, our space program is a colossal waste of tax dollars.


Space travel won't go anywhere until somebody can make money doing it.

Quoted: Like any government subsidized industry, our space program is a colossal waste of tax dollars. Space travel won't go anywhere until somebody can make money doing it.

Stand-by for the NASA cheerleaders.  Don't you realize that NASA invented everything?  Except the internet.  Al Gore came up with that one.

Quoted: Most of the ones who escaped before that got away before Castro and the party held the nation in a tight grip.

Yep, those first 40 years of Castro's rule were just a walk in the park compared to the "tight grip" era that followed...

Building a driftboat out of scrap and building a spaceship from scrap are two entirely different things.

What do you know about 22nd century spaceship building?

When did you travel to the future?

More importantly, what did you see during your travels to the future that convinced you that building a spaceworthy vessel in 100 years won't be as feasible as building a seaworthy vessel is right now?

You think airport security is bad?  Just wait......  Watch the movie Total recall.  By the time general space flight is available for the common person, the new "body scanners" that everyone is worrying about right now will be to the extent of the X-ray scanners on "Total Recall"  Things would only be much worse than they are now....

Quoted: What do you know about 22nd century spaceship building?

About as much as you, which is jack shit.

Quoted: When did you travel to the future? More importantly, what did you see during your travels to the future that convinced you that building a spaceworthy vessel in 100 years won't be as feasible as building a seaworthy vessel is right now?

So you believe that in 100 years the average joe will be horridly oppresed by the government with an ever watchful eye on him all the time, yet will somehow be able to build his own nuclear reactor?  Wtf are you smoking?  The average joe can't do that now even when all the theory behind it is common knowledge.

How about even building the hull of the space-ship without anybody else knowing?  How about even buying the materials?  If the government is that super at spying on people, they should know when you buy anything that could be used for an illict purpose like escaping, right?

Without private property, how are you going to hide all the stuff?

How about stocking the ship?  Won't it look suspicious if you hoarde enough stuff to last you and your family a few hundered lifetimes?

I could go on, but the more I think about it, the idea that I should support federal tax subsidy of space travel research being done by what is effectively a federal agency so that in the future I could someday escape that same government when it became tyrannical is LUDICROUS.

I mean really.  Listen to yourself : "We should support the Federal Government's space program so we can escape the government when it becomes too powerful!"   What kinda crack is that and where can I get some?

Quoted: About as much as you, which is jack shit.

Right, but the difference is that I don't claim to know about it...

So you believe that in 100 years the average joe will be horridly oppresed by the government with an ever watchful eye on him all the time, yet will somehow be able to build his own nuclear reactor?  Wtf are you smoking?  The average joe can't do that now even when all the theory behind it is common knowledge.

If you actually believe that's what I said, perhaps you'd like to tell us what you've been smoking...

Quoted: Quoted: About as much as you, which is jack shit. Right, but the difference is that I don't claim to know about it... So you believe that in 100 years the average joe will be horridly oppresed by the government with an ever watchful eye on him all the time, yet will somehow be able to build his own nuclear reactor?  Wtf are you smoking?  The average joe can't do that now even when all the theory behind it is common knowledge. If you actually believe that's what I said, perhaps you'd like to tell us what you've been smoking...

Perhaps you missed the subtle analogy I was making between a technology over 50 years old that is commonly known of and understood and a future technology which will probably be many times more complex, expensive, and difficult to replicate by the average subject.

Interesting read. Even more interesting responses. I especially find it interesting that everyone here seems to think NASA is the only game in town.

It was too long for me to read the whole thing, so maybe this was already answered, but I'll ask anyway:

Where are these space treavellers supposed to go?  The moon?  Sort of atmospherically challanged for my tastes.  Mars?  Sort of cold and poisonous.  Venus?  Sort of hot and poisonous.  Mercury?  unless someone invents goofballs* and there really are caves full of harmoniums, that's not gonna work.  Jupiter or Saturn?  Do they even have a surface?  Not to mention some pretty wicked gravity.  

Or perhaps you're thinking of something in another system.  But unless there's some sort of Star Trekky breakthrough in faster than light travel, it's not gonna happen.

Bottom line is that any possible off-world colony would be on a terribly inhospitable planet where the atmosphere would have to be contained and controlled within some sort of structure.  And given that diadvantage, I wouldn't wan't you yahoos running around with you're ARs or AKs poking holes in the roof and letting all the air out.





*If you don't recognize the reference, you haven't read enough Kurt Vonnegut.

Quoted: Interesting read. Even more interesting responses. I especially find it interesting that everyone here seems to think NASA is the only game in town.

Not everyone - NASA may currently be the only game in town, but not for much longer.

Quoted: Perhaps you missed the subtle analogy I was making between a technology over 50 years old that is commonly known of and understood and a future technology which will probably be many times more complex, expensive, and difficult to replicate by the average subject.

50 years ago, personal computers were a future technology that was many times more complex, expensive and difficult to replicate by the average subject. A little over 100 years ago, wireless communication was in the same category.

Why do you insist on applying today's standards of common knowledge to all future generations?

Quoted: Quoted: Perhaps you missed the subtle analogy I was making between a technology over 50 years old that is commonly known of and understood and a future technology which will probably be many times more complex, expensive, and difficult to replicate by the average subject. 50 years ago, personal computers were a future technology that was many times more complex, expensive and difficult to replicate by the average subject. A little over 100 years ago, wireless communication was in the same category. Why do you insist on applying today's standards of common knowledge to all future generations?

No one knows what (by todays standards) magical things ordinary people will be doing or building in 100years.............HOWEVER let me give you a little something to think about....

Everyone knows what a Yardstick is, right?
Well A Meter stick is just like it, only it's a Meter instead of a yard...Ok? Ya still with Me?

If You were to look at a meter stick and note the smallest measurement markings on it, they would each be millimeter markings.

Using this as a base of reference, We will say that the distance from the end of the meter stick to the First marking (= to 1mm) is the entire length of Our solar system(Sun to Pluto/Ort Cloud).

Using the same Scale of distance. The nearest Star system would be on the Last marking, at the other end of a Pair of meter sticks.

And We don't even think that there are habitable planets in that system!

Right now, and in the very foreseeable future, We would have nowhere to go to live.

Tall Shadow

Quoted: Quoted: Perhaps you missed the subtle analogy I was making between a technology over 50 years old that is commonly known of and understood and a future technology which will probably be many times more complex, expensive, and difficult to replicate by the average subject. 50 years ago, personal computers were a future technology that was many times more complex, expensive and difficult to replicate by the average subject. A little over 100 years ago, wireless communication was in the same category. Why do you insist on applying today's standards of common knowledge to all future generations?

When was the last time you saw someone build a PC or a Cellphone from scrap metal and silicone?

Quoted: The space shuttle is a POS cash cow and always was. NASA is totally mismanaged at this point. Get the space program back on track and I'll support it. In his book "Space Enterprise: Beyond NASA," space specialist David Gump calculates that even using NASA's own very low cost-per-flight figures in the 1980s, the cost to put a pound of payload into orbit on the shuttle was $6,000. That compares to an inflation-adjusted figure of only $3,800 for the Saturn V expendable launch vehicles that carried men to the moon. But this analysis is too kind to the shuttle. Duke University Professor Alex Roland, taking into account shuttle-development costs that NASA ignores in its news releases, pegs the per-pound price at $20,000. What a JOKE.

you got that right, NASA has been taken over by the race industry. I went to a business development seminar with them and all they talked about was how much work they gave to minority owned businesses and "historically black colleges". Any time you award business based on anything other than fair competition you end up with a shit product.

Quoted: When was the last time you saw someone build a PC or a Cellphone from scrap metal and silicone?

What made you conclude that high-tech items have to be hand-made from the simplest elements? I can assemble a PC or cellphone today from readily-available components - I don't HAVE to make everything myself. What makes you so sure that similar components for spacecraft won't be readily-available at some point in the future?

(BTW, building functional PCs or cellphones from "silicone" (a polymer) would be a neat trick, since semiconducters are normally made from silicon.)

Quoted: Quoted: When was the last time you saw someone build a PC or a Cellphone from scrap metal and silicone? What made you conclude that high-tech items have to be hand-made from the simplest elements? I can assemble a PC or cellphone today from readily-available components - I don't HAVE to make everything myself. What makes you so sure that similar components for spacecraft won't be readily-available at some point in the future? (BTW, building functional PCs or cellphones from "silicone" (a polymer) would be a neat trick, since semiconducters are normally made from silicon.)

Yes, you can easily assemble pre manufactured components to build a PC now.

You think such things are going to be easily come by in a 23rd century technology equipped '1984' society?