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Posted: 8/22/2005 1:54:56 PM EDT
I was visited today by two very nice gentleman from the ATF today at my home. The reason they showed up is below:
About 4 months ago I traded a complete AR15 lower and other things for an HKP7 from someone on this board. It was an out of state transfer, so I shipped to his FFL, and he shipped the pistol to mine. Everything was fine and dandy. Well, about a month ago I found out thru the gunstore I work for that the ATF ran a gun registration check on the phone, and it was in my name. I got kinda scared, but a month passed by, and I heard nothing more. Today: The men show up, tell me why they are there, and asked me some questions. When did I sell it, who did I sell it to, etc. This is my problem. I shipped it to his FFL, and I do have the FFL info, but I dont have a shipping recipt anymore. I am going to give them the FFL info and an approximate date of the transfer. Did I do anything wrong? Shouldnt the FFL that transferred it to him have the info? What if his FFL backdoor transferred it? I know I followed the law, but Im afraid of what is going to happen. The ATF guys were real nice, and said this is what they do ALL day, and If I was REALLY in trouble I would know it.... I need a drink  Any advice? Please? No ATF bashing bullshit. OO OOO EDIT: The reason they were contacting me is that this weapon was found at the scene of a CRIME. FUCK! 
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Posted: 8/22/2005 1:57:06 PM EDT
[#1]
Contact the guy you sold/traded the AR lower to and ask for copies of whatever documentation he has.
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Posted: 8/22/2005 1:58:49 PM EDT
[#2]
Because they'd be wearing body armor, and have a warrant, not a notepad  When Uncle knocks, he usually brings more than enough to make you really uncomfortable, unless you like "mystery meat surprise" on the tray with your jello... Something happened, that's for sure. But as long as you complied with the law (which it sounds like you did) you're just a note on a case, not the "respondent / defendant" .
 ETA: Try to get copies of the shipping info from the carrier. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 1:59:39 PM EDT
[#3]
Sounds like you did everything right. I wouldn't be too concerned. Unless you have a
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:00:24 PM EDT
[#4]
if you did nothing wrong you have nothing to fear... That's how I approach ALL encounters with law enforcement. If these were FTF deals, or if you had shipped across state lines to private person, that's one thing. But it sounds like you ollowed the law just fine..... Did you ask your FFL if this hapens regualrly?
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:00:32 PM EDT
[#5]
Who did you ship it through?
They'll have a record of the shipment. Did you get a copy of the receiving FFL's FFL or did you go through your FFL. Good luck. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:03:47 PM EDT
[#6]
I used a FedEx kinkos store. It was about 4 months ago, think they will still have it? |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:05:02 PM EDT
[#7]
Ohhh. So you were the original owner and it was later used in a crime. Now it makes more sense.
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:06:21 PM EDT
[#8]
Dude, 99% it is just bureaucratic BS... Don't let the nutcases who are gonna start screaming for you to lawyer up and such get to you.
You did it by the numbers. Let the guys do their job. No big deal. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:06:35 PM EDT
[#9]
Hell yes!
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:07:26 PM EDT
[#10]
As long as you have the FFL, you should be OK. Yes, some might say you can't prove you shipped it to him/her, but that won't matter. Obviously it went somewhere. And a shipping receipt would only prove you sent a box, not what was in it - I know it woould be a partial help, though.. They probably will check with the receiving FFL dealer, ,and his/her book should show the arrival. If it does, you are off the hook. If not, then you have a dishonest FFL and it probably will ahve happened to a lot of people. Why else would you have this person's FFL if somehting had not been bought? You don't make those things.
ETA: After seeing the update (crime scene), yes the agents were doing exactly what they were supposed to. They're probably contacting the field office in the receiving FFL's area and will look at the book within a couple of days. Nothing to worry about - they have to do the trace, and it's proper. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:08:51 PM EDT
[#11]
+1. Gotta agree here. If you had anything to worry about, it would have happened when they showed up. Sounds like a routine follow up on something, that I'm sure you need not worry about. If you followed the law, and did nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:09:16 PM EDT
[#12]
Certainly makes you want to rethink face to face transfers, even where legal though doesn't it? |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:11:26 PM EDT
[#13]
YIKES 
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:11:32 PM EDT
[#14]
The burden of guilt is on them.
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:13:17 PM EDT
[#15]
FedEx tracking info is available for forever. Let them know the approximate shipping date and they can contact FedEx and figure out the rest. This is probably what happened. 1. Gun was traced from manufacturer to dealer/distributor 2. Gun was traced from distributor to you 3. Now gun will be traced from you to dealer accepting shipment They came to you because you were next in line of possession since manufacture since it's harder if not impossible for them to go backwards from the last person that purchased it. I wouldn't worry about anything if I were you. Michael |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:20:14 PM EDT
[#16]
tag
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:21:54 PM EDT
[#17]
If they traced the gun back to your FFL they are tracing it because it was used in a crime or they are building a case against the FFL you shipped it to. I assume you verified the FFL's address/license with the ATF FFLeZCheck system.
It doesn't sound like they are interested in you. With that said I would suggest that you discuss what occurred with a local criminal defense attorney or at least have the name and phone number of one in case you need it at a later date. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:22:49 PM EDT
[#18]
1 Consult with an Attourney, some will help for free "pro bono" board member?
2 Follow the Attys. advice 3 Don't wring your hands endlessly, breathe easy and be confident. 4 Pray Alot! lol |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:22:54 PM EDT
[#19]
If you are afraid of dealing in guns, then don't deal in guns. If you decide to deal in guns, then this is part of it.
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:26:22 PM EDT
[#20]
They may also be building a "chain of custody" for the history of the weapon.
Manufacturer - distributor - Your FFL - CFII CFII - receiving FFL - intended recipient / tradee. Now whether or not the tradee / recipient used it in a crime, or had it stolen then used in a crime is still unknown. You should be clean. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:28:04 PM EDT
[#21]
I wouldn't worry about it.
Around 1988 or 89 My friend sold a Colt AR to a guy in Arizona and had it shipped FFL to FFL. About a year later ATF came knocking on his door and asked about the AR. He showed the letter of sales that was faxed back and forth, FFL copy and the shipping tag. It seems that the lower was found at a drug dealer's house in Columbia along with many other guns from here. They never came back or called again. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:28:20 PM EDT
[#22]
I'd say as long as you have the FFL from the receiving party you should be OK. They can send an agent to that location to check the bound book they are required to keep. Shouldn't be too difficult to track down...(provided the record keeping is accurate) I wouldn't sweat it too much.
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:36:22 PM EDT
[#23]
Well, I do have the recieving FFL info, and I was told that I can get the shipping info from FedEx. Hopefully that will be enough.
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:38:39 PM EDT
[#24]
What was the crime?
Is the crime solved? Did someone on this board commit the crime? Since you didn't commit the crime, the evidence will not point to you, but that doesn't mean they aren't watching you. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:39:53 PM EDT
[#25]
tag for further info
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:41:22 PM EDT
[#26]
just one question..............is the FFL holder you sent the lower receiver to, the same person as the one that sent the pistol to your FFL?
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:41:36 PM EDT
[#27]
This is what I know: The gun (or lower) was found at a crime scene. Period. End of story. And yes, I traded the lower to someone on this forum. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:42:14 PM EDT
[#28]
Yes. And that is why I KNOW I have the FFL info. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:48:19 PM EDT
[#29]
then you don't have a problem..........you did everything legal if you sent it to the address on the FFL licence.........somebody on the sellers end either screwed the pooch, or the seller himself did something. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:48:26 PM EDT
[#30]
this'll be juicy!!!!! Sounds like the crime was someone trading away an HKP7!  But seriously, you followed the rules. don't worry. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:49:04 PM EDT
[#31]
Yikes, I have never kept shipping records, just the FFL. Now I can see how keeping the shipping records is a good idea too.
Good luck! |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:49:09 PM EDT
[#32]
Actaully if it was FTF, it would be easier for him. Just say I sold it and do not know who to. End of story. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:55:40 PM EDT
[#33]
tag
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:57:17 PM EDT
[#34]
tag
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:58:02 PM EDT
[#35]
Nope. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:59:51 PM EDT
[#36]
the few time I sold a gun to someone on the net, not only do I get their FFL number I sent the firearm to, verified by E-Z check, but who also bought it as well, I photocopy the money order, and the address of the guy .......and I keep all the shipping records I get from the carrier.........even when those times I sold FTF at a gun show, I get the person info off his DL, and he gets mine as well as the date..........you never know where your gun will end up. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 2:59:52 PM EDT
[#37]
If you didn't do anything wrong, don't worry about it.
If you shipped to him without using an FFL, be afraid. From what you say, you should be fine. -John |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 3:00:08 PM EDT
[#38]
Your first name isn't David, is it? 
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Posted: 8/22/2005 3:03:17 PM EDT
[#39]
Went to an FFL. Period. Thanks for the advice people. Im feeling better. In fact, I think I am going to go buy an new AR15 now. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 3:04:13 PM EDT
[#40]
Why, NO, it doesn't! |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 3:07:01 PM EDT
[#41]
OK, since nobody else has asked, have we heard anything from the particular member of this board that the weapon was traded to?
Put 2 and 2 together here. Board member gets gun. One month later, gun is found at the scene of a crime. Who are we missing? |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 3:07:05 PM EDT
[#42]
Don't worry, you followed the law. The SECOND time they visit is the time to be worried. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 3:16:24 PM EDT
[#43]
Are you the first owner of the lower? Did you buy just the lower itself when you originally bought it? Have you ever posted a pic of the lower on the internet?
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Posted: 8/22/2005 3:19:25 PM EDT
[#44]
Nope. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 3:19:40 PM EDT
[#45]
OK. Dumb question.
I buy and sell one or two guns a year. By no means am I a "dealer". I have no FFL. I have sold many firearms over the years face to face either at gun shows, at my house, and other places. No FFL involved. No crime right? I have never sold a firearm via the mail/UPS/Fed-X and etc. Is an FFL required by law to sell a firearm if neither I nor the buyer are gun dealers? |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 3:20:16 PM EDT
[#46]
Yes, I was the original owner. Bought it from CTD as a stripped lower. I think I have posted a pic online before. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 3:23:03 PM EDT
[#47]
you're being eliminated as a suspect, that's a good thing. Relax, take a deep breath, get on with your life.
Easier to say though when I'm not in your shoes. If anything, you helped people as well as yourself to keep records forever, you never know when they'll come in handy. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 3:38:45 PM EDT
[#48]
if you are not a FFL holder, then no you are not required to have the FFL holders copy of his licence, in fact most FFL holders will not send you a copy of their licence, and the ATF recomends that they don't send the copy of the licence to a non-FFL.........simply because someone can easily forge that copy. all you need to do is to get the first few digits and last few digits of the licence, and verify that the person you are sending the rifle to, is in fact a legit FFL holder, and send that rifle, to the address that is on the ATF E-Z check..........don't send it to some other address. the only time, that a firearm has to go from FFL to FFL, where licences are exchanged, is for handguns. |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 3:44:22 PM EDT
[#49]
Well your dog is still alive. I don't think you have much to worry about.
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Posted: 8/22/2005 4:19:55 PM EDT
[#50]
Hmmm
OK who "was" it? |
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