Well after carefully reading and re-reading the responses to my post Friday night [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=28799[/url] I have discovered a few things about the people here, and people in general.

People will gladly jump on the band wagon of telling a person how bad they are, when the topic concerns one of their pet peeves. This in my opinion is the type of person we are fighting about gun rights. The above topic involved ( for those of you who did not see it) involved me with a cop behind me at a stop light in the city squeezing the burning cherry out of my smoke onto the pavement, then dropping the rest of the cig in my car on the passenger side. The end result was the cop pulled me over and argues with me that I littered until I showed him the rest of the butt. After much discussion and asking him to come back to the intersection to see if I tossed a whole butt or just the cherry he finally just went to his car, came back and warned me it is illegal to throw burning debris out of the car. Well, fine, I was wrong to do that. Even thought I do no do it anywhere outside of town (risk of forest fires).

Some of the responses I got back pretty much told me I was a miserable wretch and lucky I did not get the $1,000 fine.

To those people, I want you to consider this... The main thing I was complaining about was the fact that this guy treated me like some king of shoplifter, or like I was selling drugs. Yes, what I did was actually breaking the letter of the law. I also belive that stops like this should be tempered with common sense. Where I did it there was NO threat of fire. I was not dropping anything out of the car that could even bee found in 10 minutes. All that was accomplished during the above incident was that my favorable opinion of LEOs has gone down a bit. I understand the need for laws such as the one talked about, but it was obvious that there was no danger and what I did was harmless. Those of you who are so against something that you feel ANY infraction of ANY law dealing with that which you do not like such as smokes, are just as bad as those who would enjoy any one of us getting the book thrown at us for some similar infraction of a gun related law because they do not like guns.

There are a lot of things I do not like, but I am tolerant of them enough to not want the police harassing you about a technical but harmless infraction of certain laws. Remember, there are none of us out here that are so perfect, we cannot be stopped and probably fined/arrested for some breaking a law that was intended for covering a purpose other than the situation you were in. I would warn everyone that then means do not in fact justify the end.

Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]

Aviator,
Remember, you live in Washington State, where it's illegal NOT to have a trash bag in your vehicle.
Perhaps the cop didn't see you just flick the ash off.
I know that when I am riding a motorcycle and someone flicks a butt out the window when I am behind them I make it a point to introduce them to either Mr 16 ounce lead weight or Mr half inch by 3 inch bolt. Sometimes I'll just remove their rear view mirror with my foot since they don't seem to need it anyways.

Once again, just to clarify, I ONLY do this when walking in town, or at a stoplight. Otherwise I do use the ash tray. Not sure why, might just be habbit from the Army. And yes, he thought I threw the entire thing out. We when I said no, just the cherry and showed him the butt he pretty much called me a lier untill I insited that we go back to the intersection and look. This post was not intended to discuss this particular traffic stop again, but the problem in general about common sense..

Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]

I'm an LEO and really don't take any offense to someone griping about an incident that they feel they were fairly untreated.  The only problem I have is that why do some people(and I'm not accusing any particular person of this) have a bad experience and then have to trash all LEO's.  To judge numerous people on the acts of one is unfair.  

I have learned the hard way over many years how to deal with police men/women when they are on duty and in uniform: stay away from them, don't talk to them, just "yes sir/ma'am, no sir/ma'am", if you have to speak to them. Don't say anything else. Don't add to their workload by doing something obviously stupid, such as  speeding or shooting too close to a road or house, but don't compound your problems by saying and doing the wrong thing, too.

If they request to search you and your car, ask them why. If you have to ask them why, it is obvious they do not have probable cause to search your or your house or car, and are relying on their position as authority figures with badges and guns to buffalo you into whatever they want you to do or say. Dummy up, and "Just Say No". What you say WILL be used against you.

Most LEOs are good, reasonable people, (even here in antigun Massachusetts) but there are some I've encountered who ruin it for all the good ones, by being power-tripping authoritarian jerks, esp. when it comes to civilians* and guns, even if you are doing nothing illegal. Some LEOs will come up with something to hassle you with, just to wreck your day, or look to their superiors like they are doing something other than sitting in a cruiser.

(*Oh, yes, I know they are civilians, too. Some however, think they are not.)

I always make sure my licences are up to date and my papers are in order and my firearms are stowed acc. to the law. (Yep, welcome to the PRoMA....:^( ) So far, no hassle about guns- yet.

Re LEOs, I just finished reading Gina Gallo's great book about her experiences as a former Chicago cop- what a bizarre world- check it out at www.gallostories.com . Book title: "Armed  & Dangerous: Memoirs of a Chicago Policewoman".

Police work is not  a profession I'd like to be in, but I am glad that there are good LEOs out there to help us, in spite of it all. Would only that the few vigilantes in blue out there be excised from the ranks!

Aviator,

Why do you give a sh*t what everybody else thinks should have happened to you? Most of them are probably just a bunch of crybaby little girls playing on their wifes computer while she is at the store with their balls in her purse. Screw them.

I read your post, but I can see how the story unfolded from both sides. The cop probably truly thought that you were littering and remember you telling him that you didn't probably didn't me a lot to him. Cops get lied to everyday. I can also see it from your side, because I get really pissed off when people don't believe me or accuse me of lying. It makes me fighting mad. But in the end it seems that everything turned out ok.

The people that started capping on you are probably the same anal idiots that cry and have their guns refinished when they put a tiny scratch in it when they are shooting from the sandbags at the range at their usual meet on Tuesday afternoon. Just blow it off. Stick and stones and sh*t like that.

Don't sweat the small stuff.

Michael

Let me throw in on this one.

Down here in Georgia we have a stink going on with a guy and the State Patrol.

Seems the gentleman came upon an accident where a child had run his motorcycle under a truck.  The gentleman climbed under the truck to try to assist the dying child.  In the process, he moved the motorcycle out the way to better access the child.  You see, the radiator on the truck was cracked and dripping hot fluid on the little boy.

Well along comes Barney Fife, and he charges the man with obstruction of justice for moving the motorbike and "disturbing a crime scene".

With "professionals" such as this, is it any wonder a cop is killed in this country every 57 hours?

Having been a deputy sheriff for almost twenty years, I can understand where you are coming from Avaitor. We, as a profession, are just like any other group of people. The Bell Curve applies here. Only, our bottom 10%, and the ones at the lower end of the 80% give us all a bad name. As to why the officer stopped you, my experience is it was not the "cherry", but your out of state tag. Washington State has bought on to the Community Policing flavor of the day in a big way. It has some good aspects, but I personally feel it is too intrusive. It calls for "Pro-Active" policing. So, the cherry was most likely just an excuse to FI or field interview you. There is no excuse for being rude, I admit to having sucumbed myself on occassion, but generally, there is no excuse. If you have the officers name, or badge number, and feel you were treated wrong, complain to his supervisor. Likely nothing will be done, but if it starts to show a pattern of behavior on the officers behavior, it could lead to diciplinary action.
Finally, get over it. I am a 1/7 Cav. 1st Cav. Div. vet as well. As such, I don't let the small shit bother me. Life is too short to be wasted on worrying about the BS we occassionally get dealt.

Now for another one from the Peach State.

Seems a couple of years ago in a nearby small town there was a shooting of one of the two cops the town had.  When backup arrived to assist the fallen officer, he told them a man in a nearby home had done the crime.

Very quickly the entire on duty sheriff's department and nearby State Police surrounded the house of "the perp".  Despite several demands from a loudspeaker, there was no response.  Soon, an "entry team" went to search the house.  THEY HAD TO WAKE THE GUY UP IN HIS BED!

Remember that...

The citizen was arrested and held without bond for several months.  During that time, his rental property was cleared of his property and rented to someone else.

In the meantime, the state crime lab began studying the crime scene.  They determined the officer had shot himself.  The citizen was released and the officer arrested.  Never mind he had been 6 months in jail for something he did not do.

There is a happy ending to this story.  Seems our citizen is suing the town, the town mayor, the police chief, the sheriff, every deputy on duty that night, the county, the state police, every state police officer present that night for a total of $60 million.

You have to wonder about the brains of people that have wake up an "criminal" out of his bed after he "commits a crime".

DUH! belongs here...  May he get e-v-e-r-y penny.

I appreciate the replys from both sides. I hold no ill will towards all LEOs, I know they have a tough job. This one particular one I will not soon forget, but as a lot of people have said it turned out OK.

I guess my main point with this post is that we need to be more willing to swallow our opinions about things we may not like and look at the larger picture as far as our rights and freedoms go.

For example, I do a lot of gold prospecting. Now I am not going to do much damage out there with a #2 shovel or a 2" dredge. Come back 4 weeks later and you will never be able to tell where I dredged. The people who ride Mountain bikes here in the NW are all for eliminating mining on public lands. They are following the enviros along in helping to ban it. What they do not understand is that a year after we are banned from mining on BLM land, they enviros may be after mountain bikes. And after they eliminate mountain bikes, ATVs, mining, and god knows what else, they will be after the hikers. They will not stop until everyone is cooped up in the city and able to only take "guided tours" of the wilderness that we can now not enjoy.

The thought process that allows a person to agree with petty harassments thrust upon others that may do something they do not like perpetuates the ability of groups like the enviros, and gun grabbers to accomplish what they intend to do. Remember, the people on the left, are not trying to change the world in one fell swoop. They do it little by little piece by piece by pitting people and groups against one another. Just my 2 cents....

Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]

F*** The Police!

Yeah JBR

Im LE and  its just that to many of my misbegotten breathren are power hungry and are out to prove something.

Aviator, just count yourself lucky. A lot of LEOs think it is perfectly acceptable to kill you over a misdemeanor.

PS: Just smile, say "Yes Sir" and "F@ck You" under your breath.

Nice burn.....and to think that some people feel LEOS should be the only armed people in this country.

Come on now, you sound like a gangster rapper.  How would you like it if I adopted a "F*** all New Yorkers" attitude after reading your comment?  

All this because of a simple traffic stop? Two threads? Have you gotten enough attention yet Aviator? Huh, little mister can't be wrong? This is a perfect example of what I tell my rookies no matter what you do people will not like you. Give a bug a break and it will turn around and bite you. No wonder so many cops are assholes look at the people we serve.

I am not LEO but have several friends who are. The HUGE majority of LE folks are good, decent, honest , hard working people trying to make a living and raise a good family. It s not the LE people which are so bad in my opinion but the system which forces them to see the world in black and white, not the infinite shades of gray that compose it. Yes, there are some who are ****heads all the time but when you take the total sum of men and women in LE in this country the bad makes up a very small minority.

Hey, we have all had a bad incident with LEOs but still, we are the ones paying the taxes to support them.

AHHAAAAA !!!! so you admit that alot of LEO's are assholes !!!!
your papers are not in order, comrade...
[x]

No, F*** YOU!  Why don't you and every other New Yorker learn how to friggin' drive & you'll meet less cops that way!!![-!-!-]

You sir, are showing your ass. If you would take the time to read what I posted above, you would see that I did in fact say I was wrong, and that I do not have anything against LEOs. This thread was pertaining to peoples attitudes regarding things they hold as pet peves and how it effects our loss of rights. Read any post I have made, and I challenge you to find any statement I have ever made about ALL LEOs being dicks.

"Take it easy Francis...."

Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]

I've never had a problem of any kind with the police. In fact, I spent the night in the drunk tank in Killeen, TX as a result of my own stupidity. (cops REALLY don't like it when a drunk GI calls 'em "dickhead," I might add...) I'm polite and respectful (except for the afore-mentioned incident, but what the hell, I was young and stupid then), but I don't call them "sir," or "Ma'am." They are my equal, not my superior.

Well what do you expect, when you serve BUGS?

I think the main point here is that you weren't really stopped because of the cigeratte cherry, but as the result of the cherry.  By this I mean the cop was probably already checking you out due to the out-of-state tags or for some other stupid reason.  You throw the cherry out the window just gave him the legitimate reason to actually make the stop.  

Fact is he would followed you until you did something wrong so he could pull you over.  Cops do this all the time and it is a complete abuse of power...period!!  Yes you broke the law, but in some form or another I probably break some law everytime I drive (ie forget turn signals, brake late,etc).  By doing this a cop hopes to find other violations like drugs,guns or alcohol in the car.  Profiling also plays a roll in this.

I don't think all cops are bad.  But I do think they have way to much power.  This is more do to the policies they follow then anything else.  It also seams that most I have met also think the average citizen should never take the law into their own hands...but to always call them.  They seem to thing that we citizens have no right to protect ourselves.

My .02 cents

sgtar15

Not to start a flame war with you, Sgtar15, but why do you think "they have way too much power"?

What do you think the level of authority should be, compared to what exists now, considering the propensity of some people to get away with as much as they can??

Just curious.

I have an opinion on this. World war 2 comes to mind. I'm sure most Nazi's were cool guys just doing their job. But the term "Nazi" is maybe one of the most derogatory terms available to us now.



What's the diff?

Do you LE occupation folks ever wonder why these threads come down to LE bashing? I would sit back and think about it. You can't win on the text front. People are just getting more and more pissed off, it's sad really... Because it's not about 1 major offense; it's about many small ones... It's about people getting damn mad at the system. Guess who has the high profile job? Yep. LE. ...and you are the most accessible. (mayors come and go, as do council members.... keep holding that bag.)

Fireman would be next in line w/ public access; but they don't pass judgment on others, so they remain high on the polls.

I hope that I am remaining objective enough that you can't tell which side of the fence I am on. I'm just shooting out my .02

-B

I just finished my shift and come to find this second thread on something that should have been forgotten long ago.  Maybe it's my pissy mood, but I feel like responding - after all it was I who said it was a pet peeve of mine that people would throw buring matierial out of thier car right in front of an officer and then whine and argue over it.  Allow me to illuminate my position.  

It wasn't the fact that you threw the stuff out the window that peeves me so much as that you think you should be left alone to do it right in front of a cop and then whine and carry on because he does his job and confronts you about it.  I guess it's the whole stupid thing.

You say you knew you were wrong, but it was the officer's attitude and treatment of you that made you mad.  OK, I can understand that, no one likes to be treated poorly, but how's about we look in the mirror here.  What have you done since the incident - started a thread about a "Rat Bastard LEO" and start harping about how cops make you mad and have mistreated people.  Now you start this second thread to harp about those who disagreed with you and you actively bash any who disagree with you here too.  Yep, deffinately an attitude problem, but I'm starting to wonder just how bad that officer's attitude was...

Looks to me like uncle buck hit the nail right on the head.  Go start another thread, maybe you can get your conscience soothed there.

Read it again. I said I serve people.The  bitting bugs part was a figure of speech. It basically means that unless you take some kind of enforcement action there are some people who will belive they did nothing wrong. They will not accept a warning as a considerate gesture. They interpret it as they were right and you as a peace officer were wrong for even approaching them. They bitch, complain and badmouth us without justification. That leaves us the alternative to pinch them or leave them alone. No warnings, that only creates more misunderstanding. Ring them up and they will have a forum to prove who is right and who is wrong. Give them a warning and....well you get B.S like what Aviator is slinging

What about when me and the people I was shooting with on a designated area where harassed by a deputy sherrif who insisted while pointing his gun at us that we had automatic weapons? This happened not once but TWICE in the same afternoon, the second time he insisted that we had an AK and heard "7.62x39... brrraaaap, brrrrraaap" even when there WAS NO 7.62x39 on the ground and didn't even have anything chambered for that round??? We did NOTHING illegal, yet gave us the 3rd degree, treated us like terrorists and demanded to see all of the guns we had. Then when he KNEW he was wrong started threatening us with crap like "maybe I should take these guns in for evidence" and this was in a county that had the policy of NEVER returning siezed firearms wrong or not.

We didn't get an apology or much less ANY acknowledgement that he could have been mistaken.

Actually, I was not planning on aswering anything else on this thread, but you changed my mind.

You know, I have been pulled over several times for speeding and such. 99% of the time I get a warning. Sometimes I get a ticket. NEVER have I had a problem with either. If I am speeding I deserve the ticket. If I get a warning I am thankful. In ALL the times I have been pulled over I have never had someone come across with such an attitude as this guy last week. Never have I felt like the officer was out of line no matter what the end result was. Uncle Buck, It is NOT your right to behave that way. You are our PUBLIC SERVENTS. Just as a waitress that is having a bad day should try and cover that fact up, so should LEOs. And if the officer is just plain being a dick because they feel it is their right then they should be removed from the force. Putting up with angry citizens is a part of your job description. That does not give you the right to be rude to them.


Aviator

NOW the real issue/problem is out.  I agree 100% Aviator!  There are indeed jerks supreme out there wearing badges.  (Imbroglio, looks like you found one - I know several too.  Scary thing is I have to work with a couple of them...  [V] )

It would have helped had you capitalized on this guy's behavior at the very beginning, not start your post with "Rat Bastard LEO" and them explain what you did and your disagreement, claiming that the illegal action was harmless and should have been ignored.  Tell us about he guys behavior, what did he do that was so bad?  Later, as you answered posts, you only ever said the guys attitude stank, gradually turning away form the littlering/burning debris issue to one on the guys attitude - still haven't said just how his attitude was bad, now you're harping on the attitude of those who disagreed with you.

I put that oversight down to your anger over the experience and can definately forgive the ommision, you're usually quite level headed.  I too was suffering from some such "peevishness" - I had just finished a couple of days dealing with people suffering from "stupid person syndrome" and was lumping you in with them...  Sorry 'bout that.

I too have been surprised by some of our fellow member's responses here - the usual anti-LEOs chimed in and were easy to ignore, thier opinions almost always count for naught to me when these issues come up.  What surprised me was a couple of the usual pro-LEO types who chimed in, saying the officer should have ignored the action saying he should have had better thengs to do.  That surprised me - unless you work in a place where things are so busy running from call to call that you don't have time to enforce minor infractions like this, it is only the lazy worthless officers that will turn a blind eye and thier back to such an obvious infraction.  True the only action may be stop the guy, check him out and remind him of the fire danger, but an action should be taken.  Even in a big, busy city, officers do this when (if) they have a few minutes between calls.  It's a good way to remind people that you are there and interact on some level with the law abiding regular joe-citizen instead of some dopehead who just beat his four year old into a coma.  

It's a high strees job which creates some jerks, while others were born that way, and the rest of us spend our whole careers trying to teach them correctly...

I think my friends and I would have just shot and buried that idiot.

There is an answer for conduct like that. Obtain the LEO's name and identifying number - it may or may not be a badge number, and the name of the chief CEO/sheriff of the county. All of you then write letters to the county administrator, the local district county councilman, and the sheriff.

You can make one letter per person that was "victimized" by the LEO and direct it to the county administrator and then cc copies to the others.
It helps to know the buzz words.

One other really good approach is AM radio. Most localities have "talk radio" in the mornings that discuss all kinds of issues. Let the most eloquent of your group call this talk show host up with the situation and then have your buddies and friends call in support.

I guess all of you know by now I am an LEO.
I do not care for the several that give the rest a bad name. I have worked in IAD before and would not hesitate to do it again.    

Letters of complaint almost always do some good. In the case of an elected official, like a sheriff, he/she needs to here from the VOTERS of the county some of the departments deputies are out there offending the good citizens and voters of the community.

About shooting and burying that idiot.. That is interesting. I have had similar thoughts about some citizens. Actually just the shooting part, not the burying. hahahahaha!

The incident happened a few years ago and I don't think I would even want to pursue it as the cops here are VERY vindictive.

Good words.

I was talking to a friend of mine who is currently with TX DPS.  We were cooking steaks and having a beer at his house, and I had taken off my cover garment, since we were inside and it was hot as hell.  He started asking me why I carried two spare mags for my 1911.  My response was, "I like to be prepared and I would prefer to have em and not need em than to need em and not have em."  His response was that as a civillian and non LEO, I would never need that much ammo and that if I did, I had seriously f*cked up and should call the cops-they're trained for that.  Now, I seriously doubt I ever will need 25 rounds of .45 ACP (two 8rd mags on my belt, one fully loaded in the mag well, one in the chamber cocked and locked), but I DO know that I want to have the option to use them if I need them.  Cops ain't always around and are not 100% totally responsible for saving my ass.  That's my job-I am reponsible for my actions (good or bad) and I have to suffer the consequences of my actions (like them or not) and I not only deserve tobe able to take care of myself, but the right and responsibility as well.  What really bothers me is that if my friend says this, what will LEOs that don't know me say-and what will they do when I tell them that I am armed when I get pulled over (Texas law requires that you inform the officer)?  Just some thoughts from a Texan.

Monte

Imbro: Everybody answers to somebody. My suggestions were also for future "incidents" also.
Let me share an observation with you.
Bear with me on this.
An organization tends to assume the personality of the one that is in charge. Whether it is a bar or a multi-million dollar corp. This includes law enforcement agencies. It is likely the sheriff of that county is where that "attitude" is coming from. Long term elected officials tend to get entrenched into their positions, but maybe a grass roots organization can get another person elected.

mlj987 - Your friend was probably correct in the assessment that if you needed more than one magazine you are probably in deep stuff. That also same rule applies to police primarily.

Do not get me wrong here, I heartily believe in being prepared, and would encourage all to be.
It would not bother me if all carried weapons. I have nothing to fear from honest citizens.

You ever read the "Armed Citizen" page of the American Rifleman magazine. Usually the possession or presenting of a firearm is enough to dispel any trouble.

If things get to the point of weapons being discharged, they go downhill extremely quickly.

At best you are going to be taken into custody while the basic facts are determined. Your firearm will be taken and held at least temporarily, and more than likely you will be sued by the "perp" an/or his surviving relatives.
And you have to live with the memory of a tragic moment where you took another's life.  

At best it is a bitter pill to swallow.

At worst it is the loss of your possessions through civil litigation, not to mention civil judgement, and an emotional nightmare of unresolved mental distress.

That is the possibility for every police officer in every hostile encounter. It is no different for citizens.

Sometimes it is easier to let somebody go through the hassle, as it is, after all, very serious business.

BTW - Statistics for gunfights:
Between 10 PM and 2 AM
From 12 feet or closer
Average of 2.5 rounds fired.
Since semi auto's are more prevalent that 2.5 figure may be higher now.

Come on already! Aviator apparently violated a local BS law, got stopped for it, was warned and recieved no ticket. I would think he didn't recieve a ticket because he had the Vet. plates, what if he did get a ticket, this thread really wouldn't end! What the hell is the big deal!

All because a cop was doing his job, as minor as it was. Nobody got hurt, financially or otherwise.