User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 1:39:26 PM EDT
[#1]
I thought they didn't use high-pressure ammunition anymore?
This was the reason the SEAL teams officially switched to the SIG P226, though. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 1:40:34 PM EDT
[#2]
I didn't realize they were using +P+.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 1:41:31 PM EDT
[#3]
cuz 9mm ball sucks, so make it as "powerful" as you can
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 1:41:36 PM EDT
[#4]
I just know it's hot stuff.
I thought a handgun barrel was too short to do anything with a FMJ round. CRC |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 1:42:00 PM EDT
[#5]
It's purpose is to increase the KE of the bullet... LoL.
Seriously. Even a 124gr projectile is small compared to a GI .45, so they load the pressure up to +P+ specs in order to get it moving as fast as possible. That's all. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 1:43:02 PM EDT
[#6]
Does that make it punch through a soldier's clothes or armor better?
CRC |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 1:47:32 PM EDT
[#7]
More thrusts per squeeze.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 1:52:34 PM EDT
[#8]
I always heard NATO spec 9mm ball is loaded at top end so it is more suitable for use in carbines and subguns. It will function better with their more massive bolts.
Somebody please correct this if not so. I know AR15.commers can be bashful sometimes..... 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 1:54:42 PM EDT
[#9]
probably for better reliability in extreme weather conditions, especially arctic conditions.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 2:24:17 PM EDT
[#10]
If it sucks so much, you should prove it by trying it on yourself. 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 2:25:15 PM EDT
[#11]
Because +p+ is the original German WW1 loading, and pretty much all military and civilian handguns were made to fire it. What we normally have hehre in the US is downloaded.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 3:21:35 PM EDT
[#12]
the old WWI Mauser "Broom-handle" pistols that shot 9mm even had 1000 meter adjustable rear sights and detatchable stocks. 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 3:31:42 PM EDT
[#13]
It could be stopped by relatively weak armor (i.e. soft vest w/o trauma plates), but is much better for punching through LBE, magazines, and maybe even a flack jacket than .45; both because of its narrower shape and higher speed. quote]Quoted: I always heard NATO spec 9mm ball is loaded at top end so it is more suitable for use in carbines and subguns. It will function better with their more massive bolts. Somebody please correct this if not so. I know AR15.commers can be bashful sometimes..... I'm not sure about this, because I heard that the reason MEU(SOC) Marines get .45s is partially because some of the early M9 slide failures came from people giving their pistols more powerful ammo that was intended for their MP5 subguns... But I'm sure someone who knows for sure will wander in, maybe before I'm done posting this. 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 3:33:52 PM EDT
[#14]
yup 9mm sucks |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 3:37:54 PM EDT
[#15]
This is true. The reason US commercial 9mm is lighter loaded was that after WWI, some Italian Glisenti pistols showed up here.This fired the 9mm Glisenti round, which is dimensionally identical to 9mm Parabellum, but significantly less powerful. The ammo makers started downloading 9mm ammo after there were several KB's of Glisenti pistols when used with 9mm Parabellum ammo. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 3:53:01 PM EDT
[#16]
Why does it suck? A 9mm FMJ projectile will make a larger hole than that of a 30-06 or 7.62 FMJ. So if a 30-06 FMJ projectile was good enough to kill a German or a Japanese soldier, why not a 9mm FMJ? This is an honest question. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 4:02:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Partly the main reason the Soviets came up with their 5.45x18 pistol round (FN came up with the 5.7), to punch thru LBE & flak jackets. The Russians could have just went back to 7.62x25, which punches clean thru flak jackets & concealable body armor (better than hot 9x19 does). Shoots flatter also for longer range shots. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 4:15:30 PM EDT
[#18]
To clarify, we never used high pressure 9MM in those Beretta pistols. NATO spec ball, mostly WCC manufactured ammo is what we used almost exclusively. The Berettas failed because of quality control issues. Beretta tried playing games with the problem, so we got SIGs.
As was correctly stated, commercial 9MM ammo is heavily downloaded here in the US. True 9MM is close in power to .357 magnum ammo. To get that here you have to buy +P ammo. This is the reason that some euro pistols like Glocks and SIGs can short stroke if you limp wrist them when firing- US ammo barely cycles them under ideal conditions. 9MM ammo is as effective as other ball ammo in modern warfare, sometimes more so. Much better penetration than .45 on body armor, for one thing, and many countries issue armor today. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 5:48:57 PM EDT
[#19]
Reason #69784 to use a .45
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 6:20:24 PM EDT
[#20]
.45 blah is so much better blah blah.........
I like the .45's I've had, but at the end of the day I still have a P228 that I shoot the piss out of because the ammo is cheaper to practive with. And I am a much better shot with it than I have ever been with any of the 3 .45s I've owned (Ruger, Para, Sig) or the 2 .357's I've owned (SW). Its what you can hit with, bar none. If you aim for the eyes, body armor don't matter
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 6:32:21 PM EDT
[#21]
...and the winner is.... |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 6:41:37 PM EDT
[#22]
Partly bullet mass, partly velocity. 9mm is running maybe 115 grains at 1000 fps. 30-06 is running about 180 grains about 3,000 fps. Bigger THUMP. 9mm ball IS crap ammo - good for target shooting not much else. IMO 9mm hollow point can get the job done, but I'd want it to be the heavier bullet weights, maybe 147 grain. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 7:11:31 PM EDT
[#23]
Ding - Ding - Ding. We have a winner. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 8:28:24 PM EDT
[#24]
Glisenti 
|
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 9:20:48 PM EDT
[#25]
That has to be the ugliest damn thing I ever saw. I mean damn... just ugly. |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2004 9:23:51 PM EDT
[#26]
Yes, it is extremely ugly.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/29/2004 12:10:41 AM EDT
[#27]
Really can't blame the KB's on the weapon though. It was fired with a round it was never designed to handle.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/29/2004 12:20:00 AM EDT
[#28]
You can blame it on the idiot that put the Parabellum (It means "for war" btw) in the Glisenti. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/29/2004 12:28:29 AM EDT
[#29]
It is only loaded hot by the VERY moderate SAAMI standards. Most of the US +P(+) designated ammo is well within European CIP standards. Even 9mm NATO isn't above it.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/29/2004 1:29:49 PM EDT
[#30]
Okay. So we download it significantly. CRC |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/1/2004 5:12:22 PM EDT
[#31]
I understand that. 30-06 projo will definitely have higher KE than that of a 9mm, but I had the impression that the incapacitation potential of a round is governed by the permanent cavity it creates, not by the temporary cavity. Higher KE does not equate to larger permanent cavity, hence a 9mm bullet should create a larger hole than a 30-06 bullet. 7.62 X 39 also has more thump than a 9mm, but the wound profile created by its projectile is no more worse than that created by a .38 Special round nose. 
|
||
|
|
|
Posted: 9/1/2004 11:43:26 PM EDT
[#32]
Mil-spec ball ammo is made to shoot in a variety of weapons, pistols, carbines and subguns it has to chamber, go bang and cycle the weapon for the next shot. It has to function wet, dirty, in freezing cold and desert heat it wont do that loaded at the bottom of the scale. Ball ammo will never be as effective as commerical defensive ammo but it manages to kill tens of thousands of people worldwide every year with no problem. It does that because it goes bang every time.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/2/2004 1:05:49 AM EDT
[#33]
First, the above assumes you are talking about military FMJ bullets that do not fragment, which is true of virtually all military .30-06 and 7.62x39. These rounds are pretty lousy at wounding, except that the bullet will yaw and flip around base-first, so there will be a section of the wound that grows to the length of the bullet for an inch or two before shrinking back down. Civilians aren't limited to FMJ bullets, though, and using a bullet with the proper construction, a .30-06, or even a 7.62x39, can create wounds that no common pistol caliber could hope to create. The lesson here is: bullet construction is a major (and oft-overlooked) factor in determining the terminal ballistic performance of a particular load. -Troy |
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
