Man, this whole thing just pisses me off. I am usually a reserved person that hardly ever gets angry.

But this just chapped my hide.

What kinda fucking jackass leaves evidence for the whole world, especially the muslim world to see?

I fully understand the importance of interrogation and the ways they implement it. Any way they see fit to extract vital information for the safety of our troops is ok. Just don't leave evidence where it will incite further violence, especially against OUR troops.

My issue is, that the persons responsible for this mess should be punished harshly as we all know the muslim fence sitters will now take up arms against our troops. they're fucking radicals as it is the muslims. Fuel was just added to their fire.

Any muslim fence sitter, who before the pics were released, are now probably taking up/aquiring arms aginst our troops. I can just see these fuckers laoding up with rpg's, ak's or whatever else they can use.

Fucking idiots.

The big problem with the whole deal was that there was no, or very little, interregation taking place. The MP's were abusing the people for their own amusement.

And taking pictures of there stupidity... I can't imagine the thought process involved where they did not think they would get into some sort of trouble for that.

Quoted: The big problem with the whole deal was that there was no, or very little, interregation taking place. The MP's were abusing the people for their own amusement.

Yep.

Utterly shameful stupidity.

Those responsible should be kicked out of the service with a dishonorable discharge for bringing such DISHONOR to our entire military!

In fact I'd almost want to just drop those assholes hogtied and buttnaked in the middle of Fallujah with a bunch of pictures of what they did to the Iraqi prisoners stapled to their foreheads.

Gee thanks a lot guys! Nothing like giving our enemies more incentive to KILL MORE AMERICAN TROOPS!!!

Fucking idiots.

I hope these soldiers do HARD LABOR, for at least a decade or so.

Quoted: I hope these soldiers do HARD LABOR, for at least a decade or so.

Amen!!!!

This a prime example of what can happen when Leadership and Professionalism are non-existant from the Top Commander down to the NCO's!  Troops turn to Brigands, what a disgrace!  

Quoted: Quoted: I hope these soldiers do HARD LABOR, for at least a decade or so. Amen!!!! This a prime example of what can happen when Leadership and Professionalism are non-existant from the Top Commander down to the NCO's!  Troops turn to Brigands, what a disgrace!

Unfortunately the the professional and honorable mojority in the military will pay in blood for these idiots stupidity.

Andy

From what I have seen, the accused are Army Reservists.  If that's true, maybe a little more training would have been a big help.  But, on the other hand if they are just stupid dipshits (and guilty) no amount of training could have fixed these people.

Quoted: Before we sentence the troops involved, can we at least have an investigation and trial first? Brits are claiming that at least some (maybe all) of the pix alledgedly showing Brit  prison atrocities are questionable.  IIRC, they say that some show equipment that wasn.t shipped to Iraq. If the troops are guilty of mistreating prisoners, then all responsible (and that includes pertinent NCOs and officers, should face trial. But first, I'd like to see these pictures examined a little more closely.  Something's odd, IMHO.

Although some of the pics may be possibly faked, the damage has already been done. If they ARE fake, no matter how we present the truth to the muslims, they won't beleive it now, and may not believe anything we tell them in the future.

Fence sitting muslims are probably now loading up due to these pics.

Whomever released those pics should be held responsible for the murder of American troops as these photographs will only incite these radicals.

Their behavior is not the result of a "lack of training".

It is a lack of leadership.
They knew that what they were doing was wrong.
"Torture".
Come on.  Who doesn't know that you aren't supposed to "torture" POWs?

God damned POGUES.  

Quoted: Their behavior is not the result of a "lack of training". It is a lack of leadership. They knew that what they were doing was wrong. "Torture". Come on.  Who doesn't know that you aren't supposed to "torture" POWs? God damned POGUES.

Yup

A definate leadership failure from the top down.

Sad.

Quoted: And taking pictures of there stupidity... I can't imagine the thought process involved where they did not think they would get into some sort of trouble for that.

Hey, people like to scrapbook, you know, save their treasured memories for sharing with future generations. Forcing a POW fellate another is treasured to some....I guess.

Quoted: Quoted: And taking pictures of there stupidity... I can't imagine the thought process involved where they did not think they would get into some sort of trouble for that. Hey, people like to scrapbook, you know, save their treasured memories for sharing with future generations. Forcing a POW fellate another is treasured to some....I guess.

Well, with POTUS wanting them punished, their next scrapbook will be of Kansas, FT. Leavenworth!

Forgive my political incorrectness, but I don't give a fuck that they did it, I'm just sorry they got caught.
This is a society that sends their babies out to blow themselves up, that hides behind women & children while shooting at our troops, and hangs charred American bodies from poles and dances around in celebration.
I'm not saying they should go unpunished, UCMJ will address their actions, but I'm real sick of the left in this country, and the foreign press, reacting as if this was government sanctioned.
I cannot find it in me to shed any tears on behalf of these pigs-lets not forget, they were in prison in the first place for some reason.

Quoted: Their behavior is not the result of a "lack of training". It is a lack of leadership. They knew that what they were doing was wrong. "Torture". Come on.  Who doesn't know that you aren't supposed to "torture" POWs? God damned POGUES.

Excellent point.

I stand corrected.  

Quoted: Before we sentence the troops involved, can we at least have an investigation and trial first? Brits are claiming that at least some (maybe all) of the pix alledgedly showing Brit  prison atrocities are questionable.  IIRC, they say that some show equipment that wasn.t shipped to Iraq. If the troops are guilty of mistreating prisoners, then all responsible (and that includes pertinent NCOs and officers, should face trial. But first, I'd like to see these pictures examined a little more closely.  Something's odd, IMHO.

At least some of the MPs involved have admitted to the activities. Maybe some of the pictures are fake, but it appears some amount of torture did take place.

One of the MPs, a prison guard in civilian life, said that they did not recieve sufficient guidlines. You need guidlines not to rape and torture your prisoners? Is this argument the opposite of "we were just following orders"?

My understanding is that at least one civilian contractor is in hot water for anally raping an underage Iraqi male prisoner.

Quoted: One of the MPs, a prison guard in civilian life, said that they did not recieve sufficient guidlines. You need guidlines not to rape and torture your prisoners? Is this argument the opposite of "we were just following orders"

And believe it, there will be editorials blaming the government for the misconduct crimes.  

"These men were victims, they were improperly trained and forced to do a job they didn't want."

Quoted: Quoted: One of the MPs, a prison guard in civilian life, said that they did not recieve sufficient guidlines. You need guidlines not to rape and torture your prisoners? Is this argument the opposite of "we were just following orders" And believe it, there will be editorials blaming the government for the misconduct crimes.   "These men were victims, they were improperly trained and forced to do a job they didn't want."

Yes, of course.

The complaint about lack of guidlines was an attempt to shift the blame upwards. And you can bet the Bush haters will use this as best they can . . .

I read somewhere that many of these guards had jobs as prison guards in the US.  They were making some lame comments about the BIG difference in guarding criminals and the Iraqis.  They should have been more professional, no excuses not knowing about Geneva Convention etc.

I wonder if the "reality show" mentality got some of these guys interested in filming some of their "pranks".  Sort of like how they've caught kids paintballing the neighborhood or worse, screwing an unconscious 16 year old on a pool table.  It's the old story of "he wouldn't do that" until you catch him "doing it".

No kidding  ETH
your right

Quoted: The big problem with the whole deal was that there was no, or very little, interregation taking place. The MP's were abusing the people for their own amusement.

You say that like it’s a bad thing to be bored with Allah’s toys available. They should have not left any evidence as far as I am concerned, or anyone to tell the reporters about how they were abused.

Quoted: Here's how the Iraqis treated surrendered US troops from one convoy.... drudgereport.com/AJ.jpg That pic appeared on Al Jazeera television and I don't recall that a lot of the Moslem World was upset with the treatment afforded these 'infidel' prisoners! We should act better, because we are better, but, nevertheless, let's not forget who the BAD GUYS in this whole affair are. And the BAD GUYS are not the US troops! Eric The(SorryForThePhoto)Hun

Not intended as a flame or attack on you ETH, but the U.S. prison guards that did this ARE bad guys as well.

The moral relativism does NOTHING for me.  What someone else may have done has NO BEARING on what I know to be right and wrong.  The fact some some completely differen Iraqis committed atrocities us U.S. contractors (which btw happened AFTER the prison pics were taken, IIRC) is not any kind of excuse or justification.  I know that you caveated (is that a word?) your statement afterwards by saying that we should act better - but by posting the picture you are making an EMOTIONAL, not principled argument that implies that some justitifaction exists, because, at least we're not AS BAD as them.

The other reason I think they ARE bad guys is that their fucking stupidity in doing this AND taking the pictures, not only undermines the moral highground that the U.S. OWNED in this whole situation, but probably will (or already has) resulted in the death of U.S. servicement over there.  Nothing could be worse - the fact that they never intended that is as irrelevant as the excuses of a drunk driver after he's killed someone.

I think DK-prof is dead on on this point.

This discussion isn't about the reason the US is over there, the merits of the war in Iraq, or any other such thing.  It isn't about which country is right or any of that stuff.

It's about the abuse of the Iraqi prisoners.

If the purpose was to get information, and they got the information, then they did a good job.  Remember, those "prisoners" were not wearing a uniform when captured, and are terrorists.  The Neutral Observer has no problem vigorously interrogating a terrorist captured while committing an act of terrorism.

However, given the whole amateurish stench about the situation, it's likely they are just terminally stupid dipshits.  Taking those pictures is criminal stupidity.  If it was just stupidity, they should be punished severely for it.

Torture (and that was not torture) applied properly has it's uses; torture for torture's sake is extremely wrong.  Be brutal when you have to, but unnecessary brutality is behavior of the arab, not the American.

All this is just going to make Bush even more politically-correct, and in turn make it harder for the troops to do what is necessary to get the job done. I don't condone the behavior that these few Military Police personnel are alleged to have committed, but I'm sick of the pissy press going overboard with the coverage of it. I could care less what some stinking muslim thinks.

I made tequilabob dress up.

Could some of this be counter-propaganda? The left really hates Bush and that means many hollywood types might be interested in bringing him down no matter how. I am not saying all the photos are fakes but the brits might be onto something there.
I am sure some US soldiers did do bad things and need to suffer the consequences of their actions but the same ragheads that are bitching are also desecrating the bodies of dead americans, british, spanish, whoever else.
War is hell and since they don't seem too concerned about the Hague/Geneva convention then wel shouldn't either.

ETH -

I agree with all of your points.  Of course the war was a good thing, of course the U.S. did the right thing. Of course the U.S. are the "good guys".  Of course Nazi Germany was responsible for WW-2.




But a GI who deliberately shot a german soldier taken prisoner in the head instead of taking him back to the POW camp was still a bad guy, and it has NOTHING to do with what Nazi germany did.  It ONLY has to do with what that one person CHOSE to do in that one instant.  (And I'm not talking about shooting a prisoner because there isn't time or resources to keep an eye on them - THAT might be necessary sometimes, I'm talking about killing a prisoner for no reason).

Your argument is all about things like unavoidable collateral damage, or NECESSARY civilian casualties that served a larger purpose (like nuking Hiroshima or Nagasaki, or firebombing Hamburg and Dresden) - those things were regrettable, but necessary.

There was no necessity here - just a bunch of morons who thought it would be funny (or whatever they thought) to deliberately humilitate and molest prisoners for no reason other than their own CHOICE to do so.

That makes them Bad Guys to me, because they CHOSE to be bad guys - and whether or not every other U.S> soldier over there is a good guy, or every iraqi is a bad guy really issn't relvant to me.




I don't really think we disagree.  We both thing the book should be throw at the idiots who did this, and we both think that the U.S. is the "Good Guy" here (and in other scenarios).   I guess we only disagree on how relevant those two are to each other.

It is a disgrace.  Reprimands are NOT sufficient.  Total reduction in rank, loss of pay AND Leavenworth here they come.  What they did was criminal and they should be punished accordingly, both to set an example for other troops and to show the moderate Muslims that we take them and their rights seriously.  This half-stepping stuff smacks a bit of a cover-up...even if it isn't it can be made to look like one.

I can't believe the fuckin idiots first, did stupid pointless stuff to these prisoners and then documented it. Each and every one of them should be made an example of. They really know how to make a bad situation worse.

I personally think its quite funny. Im sure it seemed like a good idea at the time.
Too bad the guards are getting punished.
Lebrew

I don't think anyone on this site is likely to see this as evidence that the US mission in Iraq is wrong, or that US servicepeople in general are badguys.

But there is NO justification for this sort of behavior.  There are better was of obtaining information than degrading another person (no matter how much of a terrorist turd they are).  Regardless of how just the cause, certain behaviors are NEVER justified.  And as a Christian Eric, you've got to admit that when the end comes and we go before Judgement, all the acts of our lives will be judged, not so much on the results, but on the INTENT.  The malice inherent in these acts is plain in the faces of the soldiers.  Their intention was to degrade these people, and that is wrong.  You could almost justify killing them better than what was done. Chemical interrogation, being far more effective is WAAAY more justifiable, and probably less politically dangerous as well.   With the aid of a trained anesthesiologist, it would also be safer.

I have no problems with interrogating people, but torture and degradation is just not justifiable.  These incidents need to be fully and AGRESSIVELY investigated, and the perpetrators punished zealously.  I don't really care HOW far up the chain this goes, those responsible need to be punished.  This IS NOT what the USA is about, this is NOT what christianity is supposed to be about, it IS NOT what the US mission is about.  

For the record, the commanding general in charge of the prisons in Iraq is RESPONSIBLE for what goes on in her prisons.  That she did not know about it (if true) just demonstrates her gross incompetence.  If she is responsible for the prisons, she is responsible for everywhere in those prisons and every prisoner, and every guard and officer of whatever sort enters that prison.  She should maintain positive control over who enters, who exits, who sees which prisoner and what takes place.  To my best understanding, that is the case in American civilian prisons, I see no reason why similar administrative controls could not be enforced in Iraq. Then if some MI or CIA or DIA unit comes in and wants to take over a cell block of the prison, the commander of prisons should get orders IN WRITING chopped from higher with justification and command of that block should be formally and administratively turned over to the new organization.  If personel need to be chopped over, that should be done formally as well so that clear chains of responsibility and command exist and can be enforced.   This whole affair reeks of sloppy thinking and sloppy administration.  That's just plain inexcusable.

If a civilian did these things to another civilian against their will in the US, what would happen?  Probably twenty years in prison. These soldiers did this under color of authority, that makes it WORSE. They abused their authority over these prisoners to abuse, torture and rape them or cause them to be raped.  That's more than a little serious.

I also have to question the morality and humanity of anyone who thinks that the only think wrong with all this is that they were too stupid to hide their actions.   Just because the enemy acts like a bunch of rapid dogs doesn't mean we have to do the same.  Most of us would beat the living crap out a person we saw treating a dog like that.  

Check my signature line.  This is not the sort of thing you would raise up to the Glory of God.

Why are any terrorists taken prisoner at all?Shoot them in the head after you catch them.WTF?

Not really applicable to this case, as The Neutral Observer believes those dipshits were just being dipshits, but:

If you had the choice between physically torturing a terrorist to gain information about an impending biological weapons attack that would kill 300, 000 Americans, and letting those 300, 000 Americans die, which would you choose?

For argument's sake, you captured the Al-Qaeda operations chief out in the middle of Pakistan.  There are no drugs and no other options availible.  It's physical torture to get him to reveal the information about the plan, or letting the plan proceed uninterrupted.  Which do you choose?

I agree that abuse of prisoners is wrong, in most cases.  I also agree that this is pretty fargin humane treatment compared to what insurgents are doing to our soldiers or civilians upon capture.

I also find it interesting that the liberal press, and the world in general are getting hugely stirred up over what would amount to a frat pledge prank at most american colleges.

I also agree that these actions are going to have mortal consequences for our troops on the ground.  That's the only really unfortunate part of the whole mess.


CBR

Quoted: God damned POGUES.

Cincinnatus, that's the first thing I thought when I saw the pics. Pogues. Asshole pogues. What other kind of idiot would do shit like that?

My wife asked me what a pogue was when when I blurted it out, she absolutely didn't get it when I explained.

Lets keep this in perspective, this is one POW camp, one group of soldiers and officers.  This is not official army policy, this is a bunch of cretins with no leadership at the top.  Notice that the Democrats have now used this issue to sideline the gorelick memo investigation from the public, which is alot more important than  some jihadists having a bad day at summer camp.   Someone correct me on this, but in WWII was it not official policy to shoot enemy combatants found out of uniform?  How many SS officers and troopers met their just deserts at the hand of american GI's who took exception to the treatment of allied POW's?  
Note that the majority of people critizing the USA on this are the same bunch, same shit, different day anti american assholes, we can do no right with them.  This incident DOES NOT WARRANT SENATE HEARING'S FOR GODSAKE!!!  STFU Daschle, Kennedy, Byrd et al.  This war needs to be won and how it gets won is not the issue here.

Quoted: Lets keep this in perspective, this is one POW camp, one group of soldiers and officers.  This is not official army policy, this is a bunch of cretins with no leadership at the top.  Notice that the Democrats have now used this issue to sideline the gorelick memo investigation from the public, which is alot more important than  some jihadists having a bad day at summer camp.   Someone correct me on this, but in WWII was it not official policy to shoot enemy combatants found out of uniform?  How many SS officers and troopers met their just deserts at the hand of american GI's who took exception to the treatment of allied POW's?   Note that the majority of people critizing the USA on this are the same bunch, same shit, different day anti american assholes, we can do no right with them.  This incident DOES NOT WARRANT SENATE HEARING'S FOR GODSAKE!!!  STFU Daschle, Kennedy, Byrd et al.  This war needs to be won and how it gets won is not the issue here.

Yes, it should be swept under the rug, because after all this was all just a democrat conspiracy.

Bremer 'knew of abuse in November'
From correspondents in Baghdad
May 4, 2004

FORMER Iraqi human rights minister Abdel Basset Turki said today US overseer Paul Bremer knew in November that Iraqi prisoners were being abused in US detention centres.

"In November I talked to Mr Bremer about human rights violations in general and in jails in particular. He listened but there was no answer. At the first meeting, I asked to be allowed to visit the security prisoners, but I failed," Turki said.

"I told him the news. He didn't take care about the information I gave him."

The coalition had no immediate comment about Turki's meeting with Bremer.

The minister, whose resignation was formally accepted by the coalition yesterday, said he told Bremer about his meetings with former detainees.

"The prisoners I spoke to, they told me about how Iraqi prisoners were left in the sun on US bases for hours, prevented to pray and wash and left for two days on a chair and kicked at Abu Gharib," he said.

That was a reference to the largest prison in the country, located outside Baghdad, where a US Army inquiry found guards humiliated detainees, forced them to strip naked and perform mock fellatio and other sexual activities.

Since January, 17 people have been implicated in the scandal, including the general who ran the prison system in Iraq. Pictures of the abuse obtained by media outlets last week have caused outrage around the world.

But Turki said he had not been aware of the activities uncovered in the US Army probe when he met Bremer.

That enquiry was initiated after a US soldier in the prison stepped forward and informed the army's Criminal Investigation Division some time after November 1.

The top US commander in Iraq, Lieutenant-General Ricardo Sanchez, then ordered a full criminal and administrative investigation that led to the suspension of 17 soldiers and officers.

A third investigation is now examining whether intelligence officers or civilian contractors encouraged the abuse to weaken prisoners ahead of interrogations.

Turki said he had also raised concerns about prisoner abuse to the International Committee of the Red Cross, but they refused to share information with him.

Turki resigned from his post on April 8 in anger over the US military offensives on Najaf and Fallujah and it was officially accepted yesterday by the coalition, the human rights ministry said today.

The US-dominated Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) has cited human rights as a motivating factor in the invasion last spring to oust the authoritarian regime of Saddam Hussein.

The coalition demanded human rights protections be inserted into the transitional law that is expected to govern Iraq until a permanent constitution is drafted by the end of next year.

But the scenes of intense street fighting when US forces assaulted Fallujah on April 5, in a hunt for insurgents who brutally murdered four US contractors, triggered revulsion among pro-coalition Iraqis.

good gods, i just saw the pyramid photo. what the fuck were these people thinking taking pictures of shit like that, let alone doing it in the first place? fucking morons. one step forward, two steps back.

Quoted: Not really applicable to this case, as The Neutral Observer believes those dipshits were just being dipshits, but: If you had the choice between physically torturing a terrorist to gain information about an impending biological weapons attack that would kill 300, 000 Americans, and letting those 300, 000 Americans die, which would you choose? For argument's sake, you captured the Al-Qaeda operations chief out in the middle of Pakistan.  There are no drugs and no other options availible.  It's physical torture to get him to reveal the information about the plan, or letting the plan proceed uninterrupted.  Which do you choose?

I'd probably torture him.

But I sure as hell wouldn't photograph him in gay poses.

Quoted: Quoted: God damned POGUES.   Cincinnatus, that's the first thing I thought when I saw the pics. Pogues. Asshole pogues. What other kind of idiot would do shit like that? My wife asked me what a pogue was when when I blurted it out, she absolutely didn't get it when I explained.

Pogues?

Quoted: From what I have seen, the accused are Army Reservists.  If that's true, maybe a little more training would have been a big help.  But, on the other hand if they are just stupid dipshits (and guilty) no amount of training could have fixed these people.

Back in the day, when dinosaurs raomed the earth and I was in the Army, the one thing I repeated over and over to my troops was "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY CANNOT BE  DELEGATED!"

These people KNEW what they were doing was wrong. The ones that saw it going on and did nothing about it KNEW they had a duty to stop or report the illegal behavior.

As far as the "I was a reservist, and wasn't trained" excuse goes; I call BULLSHIT!
Allsoldiers, Reserve, AD and Nationa Guard go through the same basic training. During that basic training there are classes on the Geneva Convention, Laws of Land Warfare and other subjects. All that training is documented.

Guess what? When these soldiers go to courts martial for these barbaric offenses, their personnel qualification records will probably be entered into evidence IAW AR27-10 by the prosocuting attorney and they will have that training documented on them.

Paragraph 5-26(a), AR 27-10, provides in relevant part:

For purposes of R.C.M. 1001(b)(2) and (d),
trial counsel may, in the trial counsel’s
discretion, present to the military judge
(for use by the court-martial members or
military judge sitting alone) copies of
any personnel records that reflect the
past conduct and performance of the
accused, made or maintained according to
departmental regulations. Examples of
personnel records that may be presented
include -
(1) DA Form 2 (Personnel Qualification
Record-Part I), DA Form 2A (Personnel
Qualification Record - Part I - Enlisted
Peacetime), and DA Form 2-1 (Personnel
Qualification Record - Part II).


I hope every one of them that is found guily is punished to the full extent of the law.
This kind of crap is  slap across the face with a shitty diaper to every service member that serves
honorably.

Quoted: Quoted: From what I have seen, the accused are Army Reservists.  If that's true, maybe a little more training would have been a big help.  But, on the other hand if they are just stupid dipshits (and guilty) no amount of training could have fixed these people. Back in the day, when dinosaurs raomed the earth and I was in the Army, the one thing I repeated over and over to my troops was "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY CANNOT BE  DELEGATED!"

What if they use the "I vas jess follovink orters" defense?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: From what I have seen, the accused are Army Reservists.  If that's true, maybe a little more training would have been a big help.  But, on the other hand if they are just stupid dipshits (and guilty) no amount of training could have fixed these people. Back in the day, when dinosaurs raomed the earth and I was in the Army, the one thing I repeated over and over to my troops was "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY CANNOT BE  DELEGATED!" What if they use the "I vas jess follovink orters" defense?

They usually got a part of their salary donated to the Soldiers Home.

Quoted: Quoted: Not really applicable to this case, as The Neutral Observer believes those dipshits were just being dipshits, but: If you had the choice between physically torturing a terrorist to gain information about an impending biological weapons attack that would kill 300, 000 Americans, and letting those 300, 000 Americans die, which would you choose? For argument's sake, you captured the Al-Qaeda operations chief out in the middle of Pakistan.  There are no drugs and no other options availible.  It's physical torture to get him to reveal the information about the plan, or letting the plan proceed uninterrupted.  Which do you choose? I'd probably torture him. But I sure as hell wouldn't photograph him in gay poses.

Even if the terrorist plot involved immigrants from the future coming back in time to take your job?

Imagine these MP's guarding U.S. soldiers accused of crimes.