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Link Posted: 7/1/2020 9:11:16 AM EDT
[#1]
He was probably over medicated after the weight loss and diet change.

For the future he shoukd get one if those lifestyle glucose monitor that goes Bluetooth to his phone so he can check his sugar levels. Normally it would be 80 to 110.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 9:12:01 AM EDT
[#2]
He was probably over medicated after the weight loss and diet change.

For the future he shoukd get one if those lifestyle glucose monitor that goes Bluetooth to his phone so he can check his sugar levels. Normally it would be 80 to 110.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 9:21:01 AM EDT
[#3]
Sounds a lot like my dad.

Just after my dad was diagnosed with type 2 he started dieting without knowing how to properly with the condition he had. He went low carb and used his insulin as normal, which then caused him to go into diabetic coma’s time and time again.

If that is the case, your father needs to talk with a dietician to help him better understand how to properly lose weight safely.

Also, diabetes can be very hard on your kidneys as well as being overweight, make sure he is drinking proper amounts of water and not a lot of caffeine because that can dehydrate him as well.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 9:24:36 AM EDT
[#4]
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+1

1) Keto represents a drastic change in the diet so he should have been monitoring his blood sugars very closely and adjusted his insulin and other diabetes medication accordingly, in close cooperation with his doctor.  If he wasn’t doing this, he eventually started taking more insulin than he needed for the calories (specifically carbohydrates) he was consuming, and he bottomed out his blood sugar.  Insulin causes cells to absorb sugar from the blood and this causes a drop in blood sugar.

2) The blood sugar has likely been getting lower and lower for days, and his brain wasn’t functioning properly which accounts for the falls.  There may be other reasons as well such a diabetic nerve damage in the feet which can mess up the nerves that allow for normal position sensation.

3) Back in the early part of the last century, they used to treat depression by giving IV injections of insulin which would cause the blood sugar to plummet down into the 20’s and teens and trigger a seizure.  They eventually replaced using insulin with electric shocks to trigger seizures as many patients would lose their IV’s and they couldn’t give them IV sugar and they would die.  So sugars that low can be fatal.  It’s possible that the foam was there due to a seizure, but without anyone witnessing it, it’s hard to say for sure.

4) Low blood sugars can damage the brain.  The most sensitive part is the hippocampus which regulates memory.  If he has only mild damage, then the short-term memory would be affected.  If there is more damage, then it will affect his cerebellum and cause balance problems.  Even further damage will next affect the cerebral cortex and his cognitive function in general will suffer.  Without knowing how long his sugars were critically low, there is no way to tell how much damage was done if any.  If they caught it early enough, there may not be any damage at all.

Prayers sent and please keep us updated if you can.

ETA:  When I was an intern, I took care of a 60 year old Asian woman who had an insulinoma, an insulin producing tumor.  When I would round on her in the morning, she had blood sugars in the teens and would act drunk, laughing and giggling.
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Listen to this guy.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 9:28:26 AM EDT
[#5]
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I've been using the FreeStyle Libre since it was approved in the US. They are legit for the most part. You can use your phone to read it. I've had one bad sensor in the whole time I've been using them (readings were nowhere close to the finger stick reader), but Abbott promptly sent me a new one.

If you sweat a lot, they will want to come off. SkinTac and a Tegaderm patch can mitigate this. I liked them better when they were the 7 day ones. The 14 day ones usually come off of me after about 10 days. They need better adhesive.
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I really like mine.  I haven't haven't any problems with them coming off, unless I bang it against a door or something.  I probably don't sweat enough to loosen it either, since the only sweating I do is yard work every week.

I've also only had one bad sensor in the year or so I've been using them, and Abbott took care of me.

I still finger stick a few times a week, just to verify the accuracy (within the SD of the test strips.)  I find the Libre to be a little off (usually reading 10-15 points high.)  But the convenience is worth it.

Prayers for your father, OP.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 9:28:38 AM EDT
[#6]
Keto diet plus still taking diabetes meds = low blood sugar.  That's just my opinion, of course.  W-Mart sells glucose monitoring devices and the test strips.  I use them daily to see where my numbers are.  I went as low as 47 on mine, but I was heading that way on purpose and kept track.  When I was as low as I could stand I ate something.  Was immediately better.

Good luck, OP.  Hope your dad gets better and all this stuff gets figured out.

Link Posted: 7/1/2020 9:29:38 AM EDT
[#7]
If his sugar was low on scene, the medic fucked up by either not checking it or not treating it (assuming it was a medic crew and not a BLS EMT).  That is one of the first things we check on an unresponsive person.  And we have tools in our box to fix it (IV Dextrose).  Not much we can do if it’s high besides fluid and transport.  

Normal range for a non diabetic is 80-120, but type 2 diabetics often run much higher as normal.  Nobody should be that low, however, ever.  Sustained low blood sugar can cause lasting issues.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 9:38:48 AM EDT
[#8]
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Keto diet plus still taking diabetes meds = low blood sugar.  That's just my opinion, of course.
...  

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Not really; science sez that's what happens.  With T2's, anyway.  Type 1's can be a whole different story - T1/T2 really should be considered two different afflictions, IMHO - and they need to approach keto with even more care than T2's.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 9:44:06 AM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:

Not really; science sez that's what happens.  With T2's, anyway.  Type 1's can be a whole different story - T1/T2 really should be considered two different afflictions, IMHO - and they need to approach keto with even more care than T2's.
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Quoted:
Keto diet plus still taking diabetes meds = low blood sugar.  That's just my opinion, of course.
...  


Not really; science sez that's what happens.  With T2's, anyway.  Type 1's can be a whole different story - T1/T2 really should be considered two different afflictions, IMHO - and they need to approach keto with even more care than T2's.



Medical Disclaimer...  But, when I finally had enough information to start keto and fasting, I fasted to get my blood sugar down to a normal level to begin the new ways.  It took 3 days.  And when I got my blood sugard down to normal I stopped taking three diabetes meds.  After I thought about it, they were only good for about 20 pts.  That isn't much when you're way over 100 pts too high.  Diabetes is diet INduced and it can be diet REduced.  It isn't easy, and falling off the wagon is common for me, but I know how to get the BS back in line and carry on from there.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 9:53:44 AM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:



Medical Disclaimer...
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Keto diet plus still taking diabetes meds = low blood sugar.  That's just my opinion, of course.
...  


Not really; science sez that's what happens.  With T2's, anyway.  Type 1's can be a whole different story - T1/T2 really should be considered two different afflictions, IMHO - and they need to approach keto with even more care than T2's.



Medical Disclaimer...

Link Posted: 7/1/2020 9:58:08 AM EDT
[#11]
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Hey, I just noticed you're a MO bro.  I'm from there but don't get back much anymore.  Son is all growed up.

Cheers, Mate!




Link Posted: 7/1/2020 10:10:16 AM EDT
[#12]
What you are going to need for your father is a CGM.

CGM

It does not require you prick your finger too many times a day and gives you a new blood glucose reading every five minutes.  It also alerts if your blood sugar goes to low, etc

The doctors still cannot decide if I'm a type I or II diabetics and I don't think it matters if you have a cgm.  You easily able to titrate your blood sugar to keep it in the normal range (60 to 120 mg/dl)

Good Luck
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 10:22:34 AM EDT
[#13]
Im, a type 2 and did the keto. I was in the shower and it started flashing purple like a strobe light.
I was WTF is going on my glucose was 34 or something like that (80-120 is normal) what happened was I was taking Glyburide and doing keto. Glyburide makes your pancreas put out insulin for 8 hours or so whether you need it or not.

Type 2 diabetic can be controlled by diet. If you are doing keto you will not have your body's normal insulin needs. The Glyburide just keeps pumping it out. I bet that is what happened.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 10:43:33 AM EDT
[#14]
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He is lucky to be alive at 14. Lowest I've gone was low 30's. I was miraculously still conscious and was able to crawl to the fridge and chug a bunch of orange juice. Scared the shit out of me since I was alone, and asleep. I woke up because I felt like I was going to throw up.
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This.
It is scary AF when you wake up at 0200, drenched in sweat, head spinning, weak, and you 'know' your BS has dropped way too low. Last time it happened to me, could hardly get the tupperware container of brown sugar open. Survival mode had kicked in and I knew that a) I had to get that open or b) I was going to die before I could get to the phone.  After 3 mugs of milk with 2 tablespoons of brown sugar, was able to take my BS and it was 32. Finally got it above 85. Called in to work that I wouldn't make it in the AM and finally laid down at 0430.

Absolutely sucks. Sucks a big one. Fuck this imaginary A1c of 6.0. Not going to live where every night I go to bed and wonder if you're going to wake up in the AM. I rather be alive at 7.5 than die trying to keep some level that keeps the Karen's of the world happy.


Hope your Dad pulls through OK.  
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 11:29:32 AM EDT
[#15]
A little more info...

Talked to mom this morning and she said he has been talking to my uncle, who's a doctor, since he started Keto and he's been tapering his meds based on blood sugar readings.

The fact that he hasn't been sleeping combined with not eating probably changed the medication requirement drastically in a short period of time, quicker than he adjusted the dose, is my guess.

The update this morning was not good.  He is in kidney failure and his blood pressure is very low.  They're talking dialysis but his BP has to come back up before they can do that.  I'm worried.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 11:53:13 AM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:

I'm not so much asking for a diagnosis as a "Me/my parent/my friend went through this and..."

I know jack and shit about diabetes.
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Both my parents were type 2 diabetics. 4 of the 6 sybs are type two diabetics.  My mom went into a diabetic coma. She was in ICU for three weeks.
For the record KETO was not the way to go for a diabetic. I get what he was trying to do. KETOSIS is very hard to manage in diabetics and it damages the kidneys. Someone should have been monitoring him closely.
Diabetics have a hard time balancing sugars in their blood stream. Meds are only 1/2 of that equation. Diet is the rest. Medication has to work with carbs through diet. If he was just on pills as he lost weight he couldn't adjust and the pills may have pushed his insulin level to low (not enough carb to off put the medication)
Everything depends on how long he was without O2, damage to brain, how bad the ketosis is, and how much damage to kidneys there is. Dialysis is a real potential if he's in kidney failure.  
I am not a doctor and just speaking from experience with family. Prayers OP
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 11:55:29 AM EDT
[#17]
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This.
It is scary AF when you wake up at 0200, drenched in sweat, head spinning, weak, and you 'know' your BS has dropped way too low. Last time it happened to me, could hardly get the tupperware container of brown sugar open. Survival mode had kicked in and I knew that a) I had to get that open or b) I was going to die before I could get to the phone.  After 3 mugs of milk with 2 tablespoons of brown sugar, was able to take my BS and it was 32. Finally got it above 85. Called in to work that I wouldn't make it in the AM and finally laid down at 0430.

Absolutely sucks. Sucks a big one. Fuck this imaginary A1c of 6.0. Not going to live where every night I go to bed and wonder if you're going to wake up in the AM. I rather be alive at 7.5 than die trying to keep some level that keeps the Karen's of the world happy.


Hope your Dad pulls through OK.  
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He is lucky to be alive at 14. Lowest I've gone was low 30's. I was miraculously still conscious and was able to crawl to the fridge and chug a bunch of orange juice. Scared the shit out of me since I was alone, and asleep. I woke up because I felt like I was going to throw up.


This.
It is scary AF when you wake up at 0200, drenched in sweat, head spinning, weak, and you 'know' your BS has dropped way too low. Last time it happened to me, could hardly get the tupperware container of brown sugar open. Survival mode had kicked in and I knew that a) I had to get that open or b) I was going to die before I could get to the phone.  After 3 mugs of milk with 2 tablespoons of brown sugar, was able to take my BS and it was 32. Finally got it above 85. Called in to work that I wouldn't make it in the AM and finally laid down at 0430.

Absolutely sucks. Sucks a big one. Fuck this imaginary A1c of 6.0. Not going to live where every night I go to bed and wonder if you're going to wake up in the AM. I rather be alive at 7.5 than die trying to keep some level that keeps the Karen's of the world happy.


Hope your Dad pulls through OK.  
Keep some glucsoe tablets or glucose gel with you or by your bedside.

I carry a tube of glucose everywhere I go.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 1:01:25 PM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:

Both my parents were type 2 diabetics. 4 of the 6 sybs are type two diabetics.  My mom went into a diabetic coma. She was in ICU for three weeks.
For the record KETO was not the way to go for a diabetic. I get what he was trying to do. KETOSIS is very hard to manage in diabetics and it damages the kidneys. Someone should have been monitoring him closely.
Diabetics have a hard time balancing sugars in their blood stream. Meds are only 1/2 of that equation. Diet is the rest. Medication has to work with carbs through diet. If he was just on pills as he lost weight he couldn't adjust and the pills may have pushed his insulin level to low (not enough carb to off put the medication)
Everything depends on how long he was without O2, damage to brain, how bad the ketosis is, and how much damage to kidneys there is. Dialysis is a real potential if he's in kidney failure.  
I am not a doctor and just speaking from experience with family. Prayers OP
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Quoted:
Quoted:

I'm not so much asking for a diagnosis as a "Me/my parent/my friend went through this and..."

I know jack and shit about diabetes.

Both my parents were type 2 diabetics. 4 of the 6 sybs are type two diabetics.  My mom went into a diabetic coma. She was in ICU for three weeks.
For the record KETO was not the way to go for a diabetic. I get what he was trying to do. KETOSIS is very hard to manage in diabetics and it damages the kidneys. Someone should have been monitoring him closely.
Diabetics have a hard time balancing sugars in their blood stream. Meds are only 1/2 of that equation. Diet is the rest. Medication has to work with carbs through diet. If he was just on pills as he lost weight he couldn't adjust and the pills may have pushed his insulin level to low (not enough carb to off put the medication)
Everything depends on how long he was without O2, damage to brain, how bad the ketosis is, and how much damage to kidneys there is. Dialysis is a real potential if he's in kidney failure.  
I am not a doctor and just speaking from experience with family. Prayers OP

I think you're thinking of ketoacidosis, not ketosis.  Ketosis doesn't wreck your kidneys; it's a normal physiological state that everybody - not just dieters - goes into regularly when the body has depleted ready glucose stores.  A ketogenic diet just keeps you there, continuing to burn fat as fuel instead of switching back over to glucose.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 1:06:31 PM EDT
[#19]
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He is lucky to be alive at 14. Lowest I've gone was low 30's. I was miraculously still conscious and was able to crawl to the fridge and chug a bunch of orange juice. Scared the shit out of me since I was alone, and asleep. I woke up because I felt like I was going to throw up.

If he is seeing a primary care doc for it, he needs to stop NOW and go to an endocrinologist. He also needs to get a Glucagon kit that can be administered to him by your mom at home in the event this happens again.

Treatment plans for more advanced diabetes need to be custom tailored by the endocrinologist. Everyone is different. Some of the SGLT-2 inhibitors they are prescribing for T2 can knock your BG levels down really low like that if the doses aren't tuned right.
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This....Type 1 Diabetic here as well. It eventually happens. I've woken up to the FD in my bedroom in my boxers, sprawled out on the floor. Once you have low blood sugar you become lazy and lethargic and then very confused. I've been as low as 23. He is very lucky to be here at 14mg/dl. I wish him and your family the best and hope he can recover.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 1:10:22 PM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:

I'm not so much asking for a diagnosis as a "Me/my parent/my friend went through this and..."

I know jack and shit about diabetes.
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Get in there and hold his hand and tell him you're gonna be helping him get through this battle!!!
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 1:44:38 PM EDT
[#21]
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I think you're thinking of ketoacidosis, not ketosis.  Ketosis doesn't wreck your kidneys; it's a normal physiological state that everybody - not just dieters - goes into regularly when the body has depleted ready glucose stores.  A ketogenic diet just keeps you there, continuing to burn fat as fuel instead of switching back over to glucose.
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Since I was repeating what the Doctors told me, Ketosis is the same thing as Ketoacidosis. My super smart medical doctor told me he puts people in the hospital to correct this. It is dangerous and harmful to liver and kidneys.
I prefer to go with the folks who have spent 12 plus years in the medical field on these things.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 1:53:32 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:

Since I was repeating what the Doctors told me, Ketosis is the same thing as Ketoacidosis. My super smart medical doctor told me he puts people in the hospital to correct this. It is dangerous and harmful to liver and kidneys.
I prefer to go with the folks who have spent 12 plus years in the medical field on these things.
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Quoted:

I think you're thinking of ketoacidosis, not ketosis.  Ketosis doesn't wreck your kidneys; it's a normal physiological state that everybody - not just dieters - goes into regularly when the body has depleted ready glucose stores.  A ketogenic diet just keeps you there, continuing to burn fat as fuel instead of switching back over to glucose.

Since I was repeating what the Doctors told me, Ketosis is the same thing as Ketoacidosis. My super smart medical doctor told me he puts people in the hospital to correct this. It is dangerous and harmful to liver and kidneys.
I prefer to go with the folks who have spent 12 plus years in the medical field on these things.

Go do your own research and see what you find.  You don't have to take my word for it, or his.

The health industry is way off base on treating T2D and obesity.  That's a conclusion it's best to come to for yourself, because no one source (including myself) has all the answers or is immune to their own perceptions and biases. But if my doctor was telling me ketosis and ketoacidosis were the same thing, I'd start looking for a new doctor.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 1:58:00 PM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:

Since I was repeating what the Doctors told me, Ketosis is the same thing as Ketoacidosis. My super smart medical doctor told me he puts people in the hospital to correct this. It is dangerous and harmful to liver and kidneys.
I prefer to go with the folks who have spent 12 plus years in the medical field on these things.
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No.  You may be repeating it, but you don't understand it.

Both Ketosis and Ketoacidosis involve the presence of ketone bodies in the bloodstream.  The differences are the amount of ketone bodies and the pH of the blood.

On the keto diet, with a concentration of ketone bodies around 4mM and a pH of 7.4 or so = Ketosos.
Insulin deficit with a concentration of ketone bodies around 12 and a pH of 7.2 = Ketoacidosis.

Think of it like the temperature in a room.  If the room is 90 degrees, you are warm.  If the room is 160 degrees, you are in danger.  Stay there long enough and you will become very ill and die.

Same with ketosis and ketoacidosis.  

See this paper for more info:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6199956/
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 1:59:07 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:

Since I was repeating what the Doctors told me, Ketosis is the same thing as Ketoacidosis. My super smart medical doctor told me he puts people in the hospital to correct this. It is dangerous and harmful to liver and kidneys.
I prefer to go with the folks who have spent 12 plus years in the medical field on these things.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

I think you're thinking of ketoacidosis, not ketosis.  Ketosis doesn't wreck your kidneys; it's a normal physiological state that everybody - not just dieters - goes into regularly when the body has depleted ready glucose stores.  A ketogenic diet just keeps you there, continuing to burn fat as fuel instead of switching back over to glucose.

Since I was repeating what the Doctors told me, Ketosis is the same thing as Ketoacidosis. My super smart medical doctor told me he puts people in the hospital to correct this. It is dangerous and harmful to liver and kidneys.
I prefer to go with the folks who have spent 12 plus years in the medical field on these things.
How many full semi automatic military style rifles do you own?
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 2:02:43 PM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:

Since I was repeating what the Doctors told me, Ketosis is the same thing as Ketoacidosis. My super smart medical doctor told me he puts people in the hospital to correct this. It is dangerous and harmful to liver and kidneys.
I prefer to go with the folks who have spent 12 plus years in the medical field on these things.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

I think you're thinking of ketoacidosis, not ketosis.  Ketosis doesn't wreck your kidneys; it's a normal physiological state that everybody - not just dieters - goes into regularly when the body has depleted ready glucose stores.  A ketogenic diet just keeps you there, continuing to burn fat as fuel instead of switching back over to glucose.

Since I was repeating what the Doctors told me, Ketosis is the same thing as Ketoacidosis. My super smart medical doctor told me he puts people in the hospital to correct this. It is dangerous and harmful to liver and kidneys.
I prefer to go with the folks who have spent 12 plus years in the medical field on these things.

Despite the similarity in name, ketosis and ketoacidosis are two different things.

Ketoacidosis refers to diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA) and is a complication of type 1 diabetes mellitus. It’s a life-threatening condition resulting from dangerously high levels of ketones and blood sugar. This combination makes your blood too acidic, which can change the normal functioning of internal organs like your liver and kidneys. It’s critical that you get prompt treatment.

DKA can occur very quickly. It may develop in less than 24 hours. It mostly occurs in people with type 1 diabetes whose bodies do not produce any insulin.

Several things can lead to DKA, including illness, improper diet, or not taking an adequate dose of insulin. DKA can also occur in individuals with type 2 diabetes who have little or no insulin production.

What is ketosis?
Ketosis is the presence of ketones. It’s not harmful.

You can be in ketosis if you’re on a low-carbohydrate diet or fasting, or if you’ve consumed too much alcohol. If you’re in ketosis, you have a higher than usual level of ketones in your blood or urine, but not high enough to cause acidosis. Ketones are a chemical your body produces when it burns stored fat.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 2:03:22 PM EDT
[#26]
Diabetics should be carefully monitored when dieting.

Diabetics on certain medications should absolutely not attempt the keto diet.  SGLT-2 inhibitors + keto diet can lead to very bad outcomes, for example.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 2:07:55 PM EDT
[#27]
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Quoted:

Since I was repeating what the Doctors told me, Ketosis is the same thing as Ketoacidosis. My super smart medical doctor told me he puts people in the hospital to correct this. It is dangerous and harmful to liver and kidneys.
I prefer to go with the folks who have spent 12 plus years in the medical field on these things.
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Ketoacidosis is diagnosed as the condition of both having high ketones AND having high blood glucose.  This isn't generally the sort of thing a healthy person could manifest, as they would simply produce insulin in sufficient quantities to transport the glucose into cells.  Keto dieters produce very low amounts of insulin, but they do still make it.  They have to, it's the only way to use glucose.

Ketoacidosis is generally unique to diabetics as we can very easily have both occur.  Most common in type 1 due to a lack of sufficient insulin.  You don't even need food, just a lack of insulin.  The liver starts processing fat to make glucose, by product is ketones.  Then the lack of insulin results in high blood sugar.  The situation can go runaway very fast.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 2:17:54 PM EDT
[#28]
Hope your dad pulls through
My mom t2 for 40 years has come back from low 30 several times with no medical help
A lot of docs write scrip for test strips once or twice a day. That's not enough if low carb and on melds.
You can get generic strips from Walmart cheap so you can test before taking med during the day.
Most days I have to tell mom to check in early afternoon if she hasn't eaten many carbs she doesn't need meds.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 2:22:35 PM EDT
[#29]
14 mg/dl is very low.

My wife is a Type1 and I've seen her lower than that many times.  Generally waking up in the middle of the night.

Its not good.

Difficult to say, but if he was running a HARD KETO, that can be dangerous.  Slipping from Ketosis into Ketoacidosis.

Good for him losing weight, maybe he needs a continuous glucose meter to help with hypoglycemic episodes.

I am not a doctor.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 2:35:44 PM EDT
[#30]
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Quoted:

Both my parents were type 2 diabetics. 4 of the 6 sybs are type two diabetics.  My mom went into a diabetic coma. She was in ICU for three weeks.
For the record KETO was not the way to go for a diabetic. I get what he was trying to do. KETOSIS is very hard to manage in diabetics and it damages the kidneys. Someone should have been monitoring him closely.
Diabetics have a hard time balancing sugars in their blood stream. Meds are only 1/2 of that equation. Diet is the rest. Medication has to work with carbs through diet. If he was just on pills as he lost weight he couldn't adjust and the pills may have pushed his insulin level to low (not enough carb to off put the medication)
Everything depends on how long he was without O2, damage to brain, how bad the ketosis is, and how much damage to kidneys there is. Dialysis is a real potential if he's in kidney failure.  
I am not a doctor and just speaking from experience with family. Prayers OP
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I have trouble with my metformin when I try to go back to keto...stirs me up worse than metformin usually does people. The weight doesn't drop as quickly but I incorporate beans (pinto or black mostly) into my meals similar to how the 4 Hour Body from 10 years ago suggested. The fiber content really helps without drastically hurting the weight loss/maintenance.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 2:42:46 PM EDT
[#31]
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Despite the similarity in name, ketosis and ketoacidosis are two different things.

Ketoacidosis refers to diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA) and is a complication of type 1 diabetes mellitus. It’s a life-threatening condition resulting from dangerously high levels of ketones and blood sugar. This combination makes your blood too acidic, which can change the normal functioning of internal organs like your liver and kidneys. It’s critical that you get prompt treatment.

DKA can occur very quickly. It may develop in less than 24 hours. It mostly occurs in people with type 1 diabetes whose bodies do not produce any insulin.

Several things can lead to DKA, including illness, improper diet, or not taking an adequate dose of insulin. DKA can also occur in individuals with type 2 diabetes who have little or no insulin production.

What is ketosis?
Ketosis is the presence of ketones. It’s not harmful.

You can be in ketosis if you’re on a low-carbohydrate diet or fasting, or if you’ve consumed too much alcohol. If you’re in ketosis, you have a higher than usual level of ketones in your blood or urine, but not high enough to cause acidosis. Ketones are a chemical your body produces when it burns stored fat.
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Here's a wrench to throw in the mix: Euglycemic DKA. That's a real fun time. SGLT-2 inhibitors can greatly increase the risk of this happening. It is not fun, and you don't have any warning signs aided by glucose indications.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 7:25:54 PM EDT
[#32]
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A little more info...

Talked to mom this morning and she said he has been talking to my uncle, who's a doctor, since he started Keto and he's been tapering his meds based on blood sugar readings.

The fact that he hasn't been sleeping combined with not eating probably changed the medication requirement drastically in a short period of time, quicker than he adjusted the dose, is my guess.

The update this morning was not good.  He is in kidney failure and his blood pressure is very low.  They're talking dialysis but his BP has to come back up before they can do that.  I'm worried.
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This gets complicated quickly, but in short: if his blood pressure isn't high enough, his kidneys won't function properly.

What are they doing for his blood pressure?
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 10:16:45 PM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:


This gets complicated quickly, but in short: if his blood pressure isn't high enough, his kidneys won't function properly.

What are they doing for his blood pressure?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
A little more info...

Talked to mom this morning and she said he has been talking to my uncle, who's a doctor, since he started Keto and he's been tapering his meds based on blood sugar readings.

The fact that he hasn't been sleeping combined with not eating probably changed the medication requirement drastically in a short period of time, quicker than he adjusted the dose, is my guess.

The update this morning was not good.  He is in kidney failure and his blood pressure is very low.  They're talking dialysis but his BP has to come back up before they can do that.  I'm worried.


This gets complicated quickly, but in short: if his blood pressure isn't high enough, his kidneys won't function properly.

What are they doing for his blood pressure?

No idea.  He also has an infection of some sort so he's on antibiotics and some other meds that my mom didn't write down when she was told.

When the ICU doc is saying "he's really sick", I'm taking that as a bad sign.


Link Posted: 7/1/2020 10:27:50 PM EDT
[#34]
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Since I was repeating what the Doctors told me, Ketosis is the same thing as Ketoacidosis. My super smart medical doctor told me he puts people in the hospital to correct this. It is dangerous and harmful to liver and kidneys.
I prefer to go with the folks who have spent 12 plus years in the medical field on these things.
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I think you're thinking of ketoacidosis, not ketosis.  Ketosis doesn't wreck your kidneys; it's a normal physiological state that everybody - not just dieters - goes into regularly when the body has depleted ready glucose stores.  A ketogenic diet just keeps you there, continuing to burn fat as fuel instead of switching back over to glucose.

Since I was repeating what the Doctors told me, Ketosis is the same thing as Ketoacidosis. My super smart medical doctor told me he puts people in the hospital to correct this. It is dangerous and harmful to liver and kidneys.
I prefer to go with the folks who have spent 12 plus years in the medical field on these things.



It is not the same.  Not even the same bio process.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 10:28:33 PM EDT
[#35]
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Way too much that could be "off" (I hesitate to use the term 'wrong') to guess at over the internet.

With T2D, you need a good endocrinologist if you want a second (or even third) opinion. Your dad will likely have an internal medicine doctor providing care in the hospital and he should have a follow-up appointment with primary care.

That said, his weight loss could be key here depending on his meds and other factors.
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That's what I was thinking and wondering if he was medically supervised for the keto thing. Ketoacidosis in a diabetic is not a good thing though'
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 10:29:41 PM EDT
[#36]
Prayers out op. I am hoping he turns the corner and they get a grip on what ails him.
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 10:38:00 PM EDT
[#37]
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Quoted:

No idea.  He also has an infection of some sort so he's on antibiotics and some other meds that my mom didn't write down when she was told.

When the ICU doc is saying "he's really sick", I'm taking that as a bad sign.


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It sounds like he’s septic?  If he’s in kidney failure and requiring vasopressors they can start him on CRRT. Basically continuous dialysis for people in circulatory collapse.

I know you’re across the country, but is it a good/big hospital?
Link Posted: 7/1/2020 10:42:18 PM EDT
[#38]
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Quoted:

It sounds like he's septic?  If he's in kidney failure and requiring vasopressors they can start him on CRRT. Basically continuous dialysis for people in circulatory collapse.

I know you're across the country, but is it a good/big hospital?
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Quoted:

No idea.  He also has an infection of some sort so he's on antibiotics and some other meds that my mom didn't write down when she was told.

When the ICU doc is saying "he's really sick", I'm taking that as a bad sign.



It sounds like he's septic?  If he's in kidney failure and requiring vasopressors they can start him on CRRT. Basically continuous dialysis for people in circulatory collapse.

I know you're across the country, but is it a good/big hospital?

The best hospital in Jackson, Mississippi... so still not great.

I don't know about sepsis.  His nurse said he was seen by the kidney doc and a urologist so it could be a UTI for all I know.
Link Posted: 7/2/2020 12:25:00 AM EDT
[#39]
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The best hospital in Jackson, Mississippi... so still not great.

I don't know about sepsis.  His nurse said he was seen by the kidney doc and a urologist so it could be a UTI for all I know.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

No idea.  He also has an infection of some sort so he's on antibiotics and some other meds that my mom didn't write down when she was told.

When the ICU doc is saying "he's really sick", I'm taking that as a bad sign.



It sounds like he's septic?  If he's in kidney failure and requiring vasopressors they can start him on CRRT. Basically continuous dialysis for people in circulatory collapse.

I know you're across the country, but is it a good/big hospital?

The best hospital in Jackson, Mississippi... so still not great.

I don't know about sepsis.  His nurse said he was seen by the kidney doc and a urologist so it could be a UTI for all I know.


It sounds like they are treating his blood pressure by addressing the infection.

Again, there is a lot to unpack here, almost too much to do over the internet unless there was a direct link to medical records and a virtual meeting with his docs. That's not meant to discourage you, but getting bits and pieces of the puzzle from 2nd and 3rd hand sources makes it difficult to hazard an educated (or otherwise) opinion about the appropriateness of his treatment thus far.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that you need to trust your dad's docs. If you don't, figure out where he will be transferred to before he needs to go. If he is going to transfer to a larger facility (and again, I'm not saying he should, this is all "just in case stuff), larger academic institutions typically have better reputations for good reason. If it is an institution associated with a medical school, he will get physicians and student docs in various stages of their educational training seeing him. That's a good thing.

For example, I had a MS4 riding my ambulance one day, and we happened upon a patient with a fever, fast heart rate, bulging eyes, a large neck, a short QT, and as I was explaing why I was going to look at his legs next, she said, "myxedma." It was obvious that she knew I what I was looking for, and why. On the way back, we had a good discussion with my partner, who I'd only ridden with two or three times at that point, about Grave's and other disorders involving thyroid dysfunction, something not well taught in paramedic classes.
Link Posted: 7/2/2020 12:38:38 AM EDT
[#40]
@wganz. get a CGM and switch from brown sugar to gator aid.  You can hold a drink in your mouth for a minute to get SL absorption, then swallow for absorption in the small bowel.  Nothing gets absorbed quicker. Easier to regulate carbs for quick recovery without over treating the low.
Link Posted: 7/2/2020 5:32:21 AM EDT
[#41]
Praying for your Dad and family !!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 7/2/2020 8:42:40 AM EDT
[#42]
Prayers out.

Link Posted: 7/2/2020 1:19:25 PM EDT
[#43]
Apparently his heart is enlarged and not pumping well.  He is supposed to see a cardiologist later today.

The updates keep getting worse...
Link Posted: 7/2/2020 1:22:35 PM EDT
[#44]
Still praying. Keep us posted.
Link Posted: 7/2/2020 1:47:40 PM EDT
[#45]
Prayers for your dad.
Link Posted: 7/3/2020 2:45:09 PM EDT
[#46]
Last update was that his heart rhythm was off and they tried giving it a shock but that didn't work.  The "top part of his heart isn't working right" according to my medically illiterate mom.

He has an infection somewhere so they're bringing in a specialist for that.

I am currently at the airport, flying home to be with him.  I plan to get a fuller picture of what's going on, the sequence of events, etc.  I am confused as to how a diabetic coma (likely due to incorrect dosage of meds after a diet change) turns into kidney failure, a malfunctioning heart, and a serious infection all at once.
Link Posted: 7/3/2020 2:54:31 PM EDT
[#47]
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Quoted:
Last update was that his heart rhythm was off and they tried giving it a shock but that didn't work.  The "top part of his heart isn't working right" according to my medically illiterate mom.

He has an infection somewhere so they're bringing in a specialist for that.

I am currently at the airport, flying home to be with him.  I plan to get a fuller picture of what's going on, the sequence of events, etc.  I am confused as to how a diabetic coma (likely due to incorrect dosage of meds after a diet change) turns into kidney failure, a malfunctioning heart, and a serious infection all at once.
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This latest hyopglycemic episode was probably just the tipping point that really showed just how worn down the rest of his body really was.

The problem with diabetes is it's a slow rolling and dynamic disease. This is where people get fucked. One blood sugar swing isn't going to cause you to lose your kidneys, eyes, fingers, etc. It's YEARS and DECADES of improper blood glucose control which really impacts your organs due to issues it causes in the cardiovascular system. Just because you feel "ok" now, even with abnormal blood sugar doesn't mean damage is not occurring. This is why you hear so many stories about "my aunt mabel lost her fingers, eyes, etc." or "my 22 year old cousin got diagnosed as a type 1 and wound up in a coma".  Yes, if you're brittle a blood sugar swing cause you to go into a coma and even die but it takes a long long time of poor blood sugar control for a lot of the other problems to appear.

Our body wears down as we age in the best of shape. Adding in type 1 or 2 diabetes, especially if it is not consistently monitoired and aggressively treated will just accelerate the downhill slide of aging and aging related issues.





Link Posted: 7/3/2020 3:00:28 PM EDT
[#48]
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Quoted:
Last update was that his heart rhythm was off and they tried giving it a shock but that didn't work.  The "top part of his heart isn't working right" according to my medically illiterate mom.

He has an infection somewhere so they're bringing in a specialist for that.

I am currently at the airport, flying home to be with him.  I plan to get a fuller picture of what's going on, the sequence of events, etc.  I am confused as to how a diabetic coma (likely due to incorrect dosage of meds after a diet change) turns into kidney failure, a malfunctioning heart, and a serious infection all at once.
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Diabetes is a disease the wears your body out. High blood sugar poisons your body and reduces blood flow. Low blood sugar starves your body of the needed sugar to function. The complications from years of your body not running right is what kills many diabetics.

Many of the complications can be reduced or managed however. I will be praying your dad can get all of this under control.
Link Posted: 7/3/2020 6:08:17 PM EDT
[#49]
Have they checked his A1C?

It would tell us if his blood sugar has been under control or not.
Link Posted: 7/14/2020 7:23:05 AM EDT
[#50]
Any updates on Pops? Still praying for you and yours.
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