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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:11:15 AM EDT
[#1]
Because they don't give a shit if they kill civilians.
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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:18:15 AM EDT
[#2]
I think it's the responsibility of any parent to make sure their children are not in a war zone.
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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:18:37 AM EDT
[#3]
Because the civilians surround and hide the terrorist leaders on purpose. They attempt to make it difficult to kill the terrorists without hitting civilians. Unlike the U.S., Israel doesn't care about civilians and thinks killing a few civilians surrounding the true target might make the population stop supporting terrorists.
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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:24:08 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Unlike the U.S., Israel doesn't care about civilians and thinks killing a few civilians surrounding the true target might make the population stop supporting terrorists. It sounds like the opposite has happend, with several hundred Palastinians very pissed off about the attack and vowing revenge. My personal opinion is that Isreal keeps on provoking the Palastinians hoping they will launch a major attack, to which Isreal declares an all out war and takes over the rest of the land. I have noticed that every time there is a lull in the suicide attacks Israel launches an attack on some terrorist leader. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:28:10 AM EDT
[#5]
why don't they use a mini-gun to fill it full of holes instead of launching rockets into a populated area? Don't be naive, you don't think that a few hundred rounds from a minigun isn't going to have some collateral damage ? |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:33:10 AM EDT
[#6]
For the same reason we use Rockets. They work. War is ugly and that is most certainly a war.
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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:35:55 AM EDT
[#7]
My personal opinion is that Isreal keeps on provoking the Palastinians hoping they will launch a major attack, to which Isreal declares an all out war and takes over the rest of the land. I have noticed that every time there is a lull in the suicide attacks Israel launches an attack on some terrorist leader You need to get your time line straight. Ok, last week the Israelis were at the peace table with Abbas. They started making progress, but a Hamas leader said they will continue to terrorize. And soon after 4 Israeli soldiers were killed. So the forementioned Hamas leader was targeted. Who was provoking? Then a homicide bomber blew up a bus and killed 16 Israelis, then Israel retaliated with this attack. Who is the provoking party???????? |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:36:06 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Because they don't give a shit if they kill civilians. wow, we have a winner. what is important is for Israel to keep sponging off the US and make money. doing things that will limit conflict with the Palestinians is counter productive. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:37:33 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: I think it's the responsibility of any parent to make sure their children are not in a war zone. I'm assuming you are referring to the entire Palistinian territory. Al-Quaida considers the entire US a war zone. Do you know where your kids are today? |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:47:08 AM EDT
[#10]
My kid is in the next room. Just because Al-Quazy think it, don't make it so.
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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:50:37 AM EDT
[#11]
Some of you people need a serious history lesson on the areas in question.
Dont you know that the many Palestinian terrorists groups have always vowed to keep terrorizing until there is no more Israel? And you think Israel is the one that is prolonging the conflict on purpose? They dont want a homeland cut out of Israel, that will not satisfy them. They want the complete destruction of Israel. Yes Isreal kills civis on occasion, but what is their ratio compared to the Palestinians? |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:54:26 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: You need to get your time line straight. Ok, last week the Israelis were at the peace table with Abbas. They started making progress, but a Hamas leader said they will continue to terrorize. And soon after 4 Israeli soldiers were killed. So the forementioned Hamas leader was targeted. Who was provoking? Then a homicide bomber blew up a bus and killed 16 Israelis, then Israel retaliated with this attack. Who is the provoking party???????? This goes back for years, not just recently. Who started it doesn't matter, if either side wants this to stop all that matters is who wants to end it. There will always be small attacks going on based on the past history. If Isreal actually wants this to end then they need to take the higher ground and stop any attack. Instead of launching rockets into populated areas, they need to get the US to pressure all the other Arab countries to pressure the Palestiniens. Isreal has been retaliating for what 50 years? Obviously that hasn't worked. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:56:13 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Some of you people need a serious history lesson on the areas in question. Didn't this all start because Isreal started a war 50 years ago and followed up that war by occupying land that wasn't theirs? Land that they are still occupying today? If someone took your land wouldn't you vow to destroy them? |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:56:59 AM EDT
[#14]
This goes back about 8,000-10,000 years. it will never end. at the heart of it is two things.
1. religion 2. land (or money) |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:57:35 AM EDT
[#15]
Don't question what Israel does.
[nono] |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:58:14 AM EDT
[#16]
Here's a question I've never seen answered:
Just how many Palestinians are there, anyway? And how many Israelis? CJ |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:58:58 AM EDT
[#17]
It still doesn't justify blowing up kids on buses!
CRC |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:00:37 AM EDT
[#18]
M.O.A.B.
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:03:15 AM EDT
[#19]
Well, they could do what the Russians did in Grozny, Chechnya the equivalent of Gaza. They just surrounded the whole city and flattened it. Seemed to work. Frankly, in my opinion the Israelis are being too surgical, trying to kill individual terrorists. They just get replaced by another. What Israel needs to do is take out an entire town. Right now this is a war of attrition that the terrorists will win. If the numbers change to 10,000 to one then the Palestinians will come to the peace table. The Palestinians need to pay a higher price for support of Hamas, PIJ or Al Aqsa. I've said it before, half measures in the Middle East make you look weak. The only way to win is with massive retaliation on a biblical scale. Until then, it will be more of the same. I'm not going to go into the route of the conflict because it's a waste of time. Most don't know the history of the Moslem conquest from 5th century and how they treated both Christians and Jews. What matters is not what happened 1000, 100 or 50 years ago, but the facts on the ground now. Israel like it or not is a State. They are at war with a death cult that will never quit as long as half measures are taken, or Israel plays by Western Rules. Until they play by Arab rules they will never win.
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:03:53 AM EDT
[#20]
Thats an easy question. There are about 5 million or so Israelis, including Jews, Arabs, christians, Drues, and others. There are no palestinians. There are however Jordanians and Egyptians who tried to overthrow their goverments in various coups and were put out, as well as people who chose not to become Israelis when full citizenship was offered to them in 1948.
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:05:17 AM EDT
[#21]
Yep I think all people that have had land forcibly taken from them should rise up and use homicide bombers to repel the invaders.
Just to be consistant we should expect and support Native American attacks on civilian targets in the US until they have their native lands restored. People who live in glass houses, or on taken land, should not throw stones. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:08:50 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Didn't this all start because Isreal started a war 50 years ago and followed up that war by occupying land that wasn't theirs? Land that they are still occupying today? If someone took your land wouldn't you vow to destroy them? |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:09:04 AM EDT
[#23]
Didn't this all start because Isreal started a war 50 years ago and followed up that war by occupying land that wasn't theirs? Land that they are still occupying today? If someone took your land wouldn't you vow to destroy them? You are making my point about the history lesson. Israel was carved out of former colonial territory to make a country. Israel did not start the war! A soon as modern Isreal was made and jews started settling, the arabs attacked them and got their asses handed to them. Then in 1967 many Arab countries attacked them simulatneously, again Isreal kicked their asses. The occupied territories were taken by Isreal from the countries that attacked them as a buffer zone. The other countries lost the war they started, and in the process lost some land to the Isrealis. Q:If someone took your land wouldn't you vow to destroy them? I might, but I am not so sub-human as to blow up civis on a bus! If the Palestinians want war then they should do it army to army, but they will not because they are cowards. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:09:36 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: For the same reason we use Rockets. They work. War is ugly and that is most certainly a war. But the difference is we use rockets as artillery mainly aginst tanks and other armor, they try to use them to kill one person in X radius of area without reguard for colleteral damage. Or maybe they intend on killing that person and everyone arround them, like the Palistinians do with their suicide and bus bombs. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:11:14 AM EDT
[#25]
Because the Israelis hit em back with explosive (rockets with explosive warheads) just like their suicide boy used in his attack. I'm sure it's a taste of your own medicine kind of thing. They're lucky Israel hasn't gotten really pissed and hit em with Thermobaric stuff.
Whatever, I don't think these assholes will ever stop fighting. Not unless one side completely annihilates the other. I swear these Middle East f*cks aren't happy without death and violence.... |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:11:40 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Yep I think all people that have had land forcibly taken from them should rise up and use homicide bombers to repel the invaders. Just to be consistent we should expect and support Native American attacks on civilian targets in the US until they have their native lands restored. People who live in glass houses, or on taken land, should not throw stones. You hit the nail right on the head! That's why I don't argue history, it's irrelevant to this situation. The facts speak for themselves. Israel is probably acting with more restraint than we ever would if Apaches or Mexicans decided they wanted their "historical land" back and started blowing up civilians. We would respond with overwhelming force. What surprises me is that so far an Israeli pilot hasn't freaked out and decided to take things into his own hands. A fully loaded F-16 could get a lot of vengeance. Hell, even a tank could reek massive damage if used indiscriminately. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:20:15 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Israel is probably acting with more restraint than we ever would if Apaches or Mexicans decided they wanted their "historical land" back and started blowing up civilians. We would respond with overwhelming force. Been there, done that...[url=http://www.lsjunction.com/events/alamo.htm]Remember the Alamo?[/url] Without being biased like some here.... [i]Why Does Isreal Keep Using Rockets? [/i] Cuz they work better than [b]ROCKS[/b]! [:D] |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:20:52 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Quoted: For the same reason we use Rockets. They work. War is ugly and that is most certainly a war. But the difference is we use rockets as artillery mainly aginst tanks and other armor, they try to use them to kill one person in X radius of area without reguard for colleteral damage. Or maybe they intend on killing that person and everyone arround them, like the Palistinians do with their suicide and bus bombs. You're forgetting Global Hawk and the Hellfire missiles used in Afganistan. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:20:54 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: If they know the specific vehicles of their targets why don't they use a mini-gun to fill it full of holes instead of launching rockets into a populated area? This is a good idea! An AC-130 Spooky circling the area, and clearing the streets with mini-guns.[50] |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:28:57 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: For the same reason we use Rockets. They work. War is ugly and that is most certainly a war. But the difference is we use rockets as artillery mainly aginst tanks and other armor, they try to use them to kill one person in X radius of area without reguard for colleteral damage. Or maybe they intend on killing that person and everyone arround them, like the Palistinians do with their suicide and bus bombs. You're forgetting Global Hawk and the Hellfire missiles used in Afganistan. Generally missles are guided while rockets are unguided. therefor I don't consider the hellfire[b]missile[/b] a rocket, and they aren't really launched in barages like rockets. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:32:51 AM EDT
[#31]
Roll IDF.
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:36:30 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Some of you people need a serious history lesson on the areas in question. Dont you know that the many Palestinian terrorists groups have always vowed to keep terrorizing until there is no more Israel? And you think Israel is the one that is prolonging the conflict on purpose? They dont want a homeland cut out of Israel, that will not satisfy them. They want the complete destruction of Israel. Yes Isreal kills civis on occasion, but what is their ratio compared to the Palestinians? [b]Israelis Killed in the Occupied Territories (including East Jerusalem), since the Beginning of the First Intifada (9 Dec., 1987) untill the end of Nov. 2002 [blue]495[/blue] Palestinians Killed in the Occupied Territories (including East Jerusalem), since the Beginning of the First Intifada (9 Dec., 1987) untill the end of Dec. 2002 [red]3,226[/red][/b] For more detailed information, look [url=http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Total_Casualties.asp]here.[/url] |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:57:11 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: [b]Israelis Killed [blue]495[/blue] Palestinians Killed [red]3,226[/red][/b] From these numbers, I would say offhand, [i]they[/i] are getting [i]our[/i] money's worth (out of our "aid")... |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 8:03:28 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: My personal opinion is that Isreal keeps on provoking the Palastinians hoping they will launch a major attack, to which Isreal declares an all out war and takes over the rest of the land. If that were the case, they would have started long ago... I have noticed that every time there is a lull in the suicide attacks Israel launches an attack on some terrorist leader. That's funny. I've noticed every time there's a glimmer of hope for peace in the region some scumbag terrorist goes and blows up a bus... |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 8:20:09 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Because they don't give a shit if they kill civilians. Is your comment a joke or do you really believe that? |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 8:24:27 AM EDT
[#36]
Man,
Seems like all the Middle-East Historians are here [b]NOT![/b] |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 8:35:47 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Quoted: [b]Israelis Killed [blue]495[/blue] Palestinians Killed [red]3,226[/red][/b] From these numbers, I would say offhand, [i]they[/i] are getting [i]our[/i] money's worth (out of our "aid")... Just proves you do not bring a rock to a gun fight! [brick] |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 8:38:42 AM EDT
[#38]
Man, Seems like all the Middle-East Historians are here NOT! I'm here![:D] Selected reading if you want to know WTF you are talking about A History of Palestine, 634-1099 Moshe Gil This is basically a textbook, but if you can get through it, it describes the ethnic makeup of the area from the beginning of the Muslim conquest to the Crusades. Good historical background that shows in my opinion that the Arab tribes that came out of the Hijaz (Saudi) were nothing but a bunch of raiding parasites that subjegated both Christiand and Jews, taxing them to death(Sounds like Democrats eh?) One more suited to the present discussion From Time Immemorial: The Origins of the Arab-Jewish Conflict over Palestine by Joan Peters. Peters is a woman who was basically pro-Palestinian until she researched the way the British and Arabs essentially created a Palestinian identity where none existed in order to stop the rise of the State of Israel. She through study and research changed her mind and discovered that the Palestinians are a bunch of lying scumbags who want to be handed something for nothing. I have many more, but like I said, the history is irrelevant. Hamas needs to be destroyed, and hopefully Sharon will have the stones to do it right. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 8:41:34 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: Quoted: Some of you people need a serious history lesson on the areas in question. Dont you know that the many Palestinian terrorists groups have always vowed to keep terrorizing until there is no more Israel? And you think Israel is the one that is prolonging the conflict on purpose? They dont want a homeland cut out of Israel, that will not satisfy them. They want the complete destruction of Israel. Yes Isreal kills civis on occasion, but what is their ratio compared to the Palestinians? [b]Israelis Killed in the Occupied Territories (including East Jerusalem), since the Beginning of the First Intifada (9 Dec., 1987) untill the end of Nov. 2002 [blue]495[/blue] Palestinians Killed in the Occupied Territories (including East Jerusalem), since the Beginning of the First Intifada (9 Dec., 1987) untill the end of Dec. 2002 [red]3,226[/red][/b] For more detailed information, look [url=http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Total_Casualties.asp]here.[/url] Hmm. That's an interesting link. It lists Israelis killed by Palestinians, and Palestinians killed by Israelis. But what it doesn't call out are Palestinians killed by themselves (i.e., the bombers) or Palestinians killed by each other (i.e., killed as suspected collaborators). During the 1st intifada, the Associated Press reported at least 700 cases of Palestinian on Palestinian fratricide. There have been hundreds in the current intifada as well, as I recall. Weird that your site doesn't go into that. I hope they're not calling those Palestinian on Palestinian murders the work of the Israelis, cause, you know, that would be a distortion. I'm sure neither side of the debate would do that. Anyway, that figure you give for number of Palestinians killed these last 16 years looks to be just about the same as number of "Palestinians" (e.g., non hashemite arabs) killed by Jordan's king Hussein back in September '71, no? The only reason I ask is that I keep hearing that we need to cut the Palestinians some slack, and that they're murderous savages right now because of all the deaths they've suffered at the hands of the Israelis. But they're not attacking Jordan which not only killed a similar number much more quickly, but also ejected them from the jordanian territories. That means that (unless Jordan is simply "next") that the "retribution" and "justice" arguments sort of ring hollow to me. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 9:22:22 AM EDT
[#40]
Like the old saying, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Until both sides want peace, violence is what they will get. The only way they will ever over come their past is to forget it!
It seems to be working in Northern Ireland, after centuries of conflict, and it appears to be working in South Africa. In SA they gave complete amnesty, for BOTH sides, for all actions taking before the peace settlement. As long as people continue to exercise an eye for an eye, peace will be illusive. The IRA and the PLO have done some atrocious things, unforgivable things, but is peace worth it? They have to answer that question, not me. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 9:29:46 AM EDT
[#41]
The only solution is FINAL.....and noone wants that.
-HS |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 9:32:01 AM EDT
[#42]
I cant beleve it, some of you are taking news reports literally, after all the evidence on why you shouldnt.
The media does NOT know the technical distinction between a missile and a rocket. The IDF uses anti-tank missiles in these attacks. They are the most effective and LEAST damaging weapons they possess. They do NOT possess good snipers like we do. One of the things having a conscript army denies you. See [url]www.isayeret.com[/url] |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 9:38:48 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: Quoted: Some of you people need a serious history lesson on the areas in question. Dont you know that the many Palestinian terrorists groups have always vowed to keep terrorizing until there is no more Israel? And you think Israel is the one that is prolonging the conflict on purpose? They dont want a homeland cut out of Israel, that will not satisfy them. They want the complete destruction of Israel. Yes Isreal kills civis on occasion, but what is their ratio compared to the Palestinians? [b]Israelis Killed in the Occupied Territories (including East Jerusalem), since the Beginning of the First Intifada (9 Dec., 1987) untill the end of Nov. 2002 [blue]495[/blue] Palestinians Killed in the Occupied Territories (including East Jerusalem), since the Beginning of the First Intifada (9 Dec., 1987) untill the end of Dec. 2002 [red]3,226[/red][/b] For more detailed information, look [url=http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Total_Casualties.asp]here.[/url] [url]http://www.idf.il/daily_statistics/english/1.gif[/url] Casualties during "Ebb and Flow" since 9-29-2000 Injured: 5492 Killed: 788 Look at this crap! [url]http://www.idf.il/daily_statistics/english/3.gif[/url]. [b]256[/b] terrorist attacks in the last 3 weeks. It is time to freaking flatten "Palestine". Would YOU put up with 256 terrorist attacks in 3 weeks? But I'm sure you know everything, since you only read what shows up on the front page in this country. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 10:26:49 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: Like the old saying, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Until both sides want peace, violence is what they will get. The only way they will ever over come their past is to forget it! It seems to be working in Northern Ireland, after centuries of conflict, and it appears to be working in South Africa. In SA they gave complete amnesty, for BOTH sides, for all actions taking before the peace settlement. As long as people continue to exercise an eye for an eye, peace will be illusive. The IRA and the PLO have done some atrocious things, unforgivable things, but is peace worth it? They have to answer that question, not me. Perhaps the [b]ONLY[/b] truly neutral voice of reason in this whole thread. Its their little red wagon, they can push it or blow it up! |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 2:26:09 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: Quoted: [b]Israelis Killed [blue]495[/blue] Palestinians Killed [red]3,226[/red][/b] From these numbers, I would say offhand, [i]they[/i] are getting [i]our[/i] money's worth (out of our "aid")... The important thing to note is that the numbers are limited to "The occupied territories". A bus full of Isreali children blown up in downtown Tel Aviv doesn't apparently count.... The numbers for Israel+Occupied Territories would be interesting, but would ignore Isreali deaths commited by PLO terrorists world wide. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 3:48:15 PM EDT
[#46]
You guys miss the whole point about the missiles or the apache weapons system. I’m sure the u.s. military personal on this site can confirm what I am saying. The only reason why these systems are employed in the territories is for they are very accurate systems, much more then having twenty tanks and apcs barrel in with guns blazing. It is a big mistake (which the left or the Jew haters do on purpose) to look at the apache systems with its missiles as brute force for the reality is that Israel uses them to actually limit the number of casualties. For there is no other system that can send a missile directly into a window where a terrorist is at, this causes less collateral damage then sending in the tanks and the apcs.
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Posted: 6/12/2003 3:58:44 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: blah, blah, blah... Then in 1967 many Arab countries attacked them simulatneously, again Isreal kicked their asses. blah, blah Israel premepted egypt.... not knowing this has invalidated your entire point. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 4:09:12 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Quoted: Because they don't give a shit if they kill civilians. Is your comment a joke or do you really believe that? I think that the Israelises have a bad case of tunnel vision. They think that if they kill one more leader that the problem will go away. Therefore any measures need to remove that target are alright, including killing lots of civillians. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 5:08:30 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: [Israel premepted egypt.... not knowing this has invalidated your entire point. Uh, no. Egypt closed off the entrance to the Red Sea, an act of war. And since you used the term "preempted", although misspelled means you know damn well the Arabs were about to invade. You have invalidated your own argument such that it was. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 5:14:28 PM EDT
[#50]
IDFM_203, you are indeed correct. Frankly like I've said before I think this tactic of surgical strikes in not effective. Hamas is not a snake. If you cut off the head it just grows another. The Arabs need to pay a much higher price before they will be willing to discuss peace. This is becoming a war of attrition that can't be won by trading a life for a life. Or even 100 lives for a life. The price for supporting this death cult must be higher than even Gazans are willing to pay. Too bad Sadat didn't take it with Sinai, but even he didn't want it.
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