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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:58:36 PM EDT
[#1]
What if they are throwing out a bunch of BS rulings in hopes of being sued?
For example, the more lawsuits there are, the thinner the money from donors and contributors will be spread around when it comes time to fund the really important lawsuits like 41p.
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:01:21 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
sig brace is the new thing "shoulder thing that goes up". Correct. There is now in fact an item to go with the phrase.....lol |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:03:48 PM EDT
[#3]
There seems to be much confusion about the SIG brace. Why doesn't someone just write to the ATF and ask about it?
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:05:13 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its only a matter of time before they declare the brace as a stock. they have to. either they declare it a stock and you can no longer use it on an ar pistol with out a form 1 or they have to come out with a new letter reversing the open letter they just released. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:06:01 PM EDT
[#5]
If I had a dollar for every Sig Brace thread this weekend, I could buy a stamp and never worry about it again
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:07:13 PM EDT
[#6]
actually they said "if you install the sig brace with the intent to shoulder it" it is an SBR.
If you install with intent to strap to your arm and then you shoulder it later, you are good to go. it is the intent when installing it, not how you end up using it. Still extremely fucked up though. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:09:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am really tire of these threads. I am wheelie with you on that. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:10:50 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
fucking loooove sig brace threads Lol. Butt hurt, butt hurt everywhere. Shall not infringe bro! |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:11:21 PM EDT
[#9]
What part of Infringed do they not understand?
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:14:09 PM EDT
[#10]
fucking come on with this shit people... damn...
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:14:44 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
actually they said "if you install the sig brace with the intent to shoulder it" it is an SBR. If you install with intent to strap to your arm and then you shoulder it later, you are good to go. it is the intent when installing it, not how you end up using it. Still extremely fucked up though. It's designed and sold (and theoretically factory installed on many pistols) to be strapped to the arm. So if that's the case they can only bust you on home builds if you are shouldering it, not on factory rifles. And that sort of changes the ruling back to intent and away from use determining classification. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:15:19 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am wheelie with you on that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I am really tire of these threads. I am wheelie with you on that. Well then why do you keep posting in them? 
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:18:07 PM EDT
[#13]
On the bright side, I got an email from PSA. Sig braces $110.
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:19:50 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
On the bright side, I got an email from PSA. Sig braces $110. Osage County Guns Liquidation on SBX's $109, no returns. Sb-15's $89, this tell's me arguably the largest Sig dealer I know of got fucked by SigSauer, and they don't like it. They weren't told ahead of time, and they are losing money. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:20:11 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well then why do you keep posting in them? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I am really tire of these threads. I am wheelie with you on that. Well then why do you keep posting in them? The joke Your head |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:22:24 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well then why do you keep posting in them? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I am really tire of these threads. I am wheelie with you on that. Well then why do you keep posting in them? I guess they miss Beiber threads  ...
Back topic... ATF are the ultimate trolls with this latest ruling. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:24:09 PM EDT
[#17]
It's no longer a case of how it was designed and sold but now a case of how it could be used. This makes it much easier for the ATF to love you tenderly, if they so choose.
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:24:53 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well then why do you keep posting in them? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I am really tire of these threads. I am wheelie with you on that. Well then why do you keep posting in them? It was for the wheelie comment. 
I could not care less how many sig brace threads there are,or ATF threads. This is a firearms forum last I checked. "Forum" means discussion and debate, not solutions. I don't think anyone here expects we'll come up with something that closes the book on this. Therefore, we talk, and we'll talk until more people than are bitching here have had their fill. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:26:34 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's designed and sold (and theoretically factory installed on many pistols) to be strapped to the arm. So if that's the case they can only bust you on home builds if you are shouldering it, not on factory rifles. And that sort of changes the ruling back to intent and away from use determining classification. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
actually they said "if you install the sig brace with the intent to shoulder it" it is an SBR. If you install with intent to strap to your arm and then you shoulder it later, you are good to go. it is the intent when installing it, not how you end up using it. Still extremely fucked up though. It's designed and sold (and theoretically factory installed on many pistols) to be strapped to the arm. So if that's the case they can only bust you on home builds if you are shouldering it, not on factory rifles. And that sort of changes the ruling back to intent and away from use determining classification. How can you be so sure? |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:29:40 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am really tire of these threads. . This is a discussion board for over 300,000 users, there's going to repeated threads on hot topics.I think these recent controversial and relatively high profile (at least online) rulings the ATF has made that there's going to be decision coming down on how they've been doing things, and it could be good or bad. It could be decided by SCOTUS or Congress that the ATF has the power to make rulings and define terms on laws concerning firearms, if that happens it's going to be very difficult for us to fight the ATF because it will be drawn out court cases over semantics and intents of law. If it's determined that the ATF can't make rulings on a whim, the question is who does? Is it going to have go all the way to SCOTUS every time a question of what's legal comes up? With all these new products and inventive ideas that are coming out that blur the lines of current definitions, it really opens up the bigger problem that our gun laws (particularly the NFA) are vague and somewhat arbitrary. And that makes it difficult to define what exactly constitutes what. Something is going to happen, it's just a matter of what. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:37:12 PM EDT
[#21]
I knew that the ATF would most likely slap sig brace users with a constructive intent decree sooner or later. A threaded adapter, freeze plugs and a metal tube rustles folks feathers because it *could* be used to make an illegal suppresor. Parts which are not illegal to own but most people on this site wouldn't want to have to explain why they have them in their safe. Sig brace falls under the same category IMO. Not illegal to own but depending on what you do with it could get you in hot water. Not that I think it's right.
They aren't idiots (tounge in cheek) and they knew people were buying braces to skirt the NFA. I'm surprised they didn't say something sooner. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:38:37 PM EDT
[#22]
You idiots with your sig brace is a joke. The fucking stamp is $200. You had to press this fucking thing. Its a useless pos. Keep poking the bear.... You tapco fuct idiots forced them to make a decision. Which was the same as before.... If u shoulder a fucking pistol its an SBR.
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:40:37 PM EDT
[#23]
prepare your kitten!
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:43:31 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You idiots with your sig brace is a joke. The fucking stamp is $200. You had to press this fucking thing. Its a useless pos. Keep poking the bear.... You tapco fuct idiots forced them to make a decision. Which was the same as before.... If u shoulder a fucking pistol its an SBR. You live in Connecticut.....So there... |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:43:40 PM EDT
[#25]
The answer to the original question is "yes", but apparently no one gets the significance of it. Any system of logic can get twisted, even without politics, and the ATF is pure politics, at odds with the constitution and common sense. This is the beginning of the death spiral. In a few years there will be no A T F or NFA.
The idiots wanted things their way and jumped the shark right over into psychopath mode. Everyone can see this ruling is a violation of logical determination, due process, and has reduced the confidence level in the system to zero. No credibility means no authority. They just committed suicide, but it will take a while for that to become obvious. Want to help kill the ATF? Buy a SIG Brace. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:44:46 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You idiots with your sig brace is a joke. The fucking stamp is $200. You had to press this fucking thing. Its a useless pos. Keep poking the bear.... You tapco fuct idiots forced them to make a decision. Which was the same as before.... If u shoulder a fucking pistol its an SBR. lol |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:49:24 PM EDT
[#27]
People if you don't like the sig brace threads don't fucking read them and shut up. The reason there is so many is because this is the biggest ruling that affects a massive amount of people in a long time. That said, I don't believe a bureaucratic agency has the power to regulate actions and something must be done.
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:53:27 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The sig brace was screwed more by gun owners than anything, to much bear poking. I see you welcome your overlords comrade. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:54:12 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The answer to the original question is "yes", but apparently no one gets the significance of it. Any system of logic can get twisted, even without politics, and the ATF is pure politics, at odds with the constitution and common sense. This is the beginning of the death spiral. In a few years there will be no A T F or NFA. The idiots wanted things their way and jumped the shark right over into psychopath mode. Everyone can see this ruling is a violation of logical determination, due process, and has reduced the confidence level in the system to zero. No credibility means no authority. They just committed suicide, but it will take a while for that to become obvious. Want to help kill the ATF? Buy a SIG Brace. Post of the day my friend. 
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:54:33 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You idiots with your sig brace is a joke. The fucking stamp is $200. You had to press this fucking thing. Its a useless pos. Keep poking the bear.... You tapco fuct idiots forced them to make a decision. Which was the same as before.... If u shoulder a fucking pistol its an SBR. You're an idiot. Some of us cannot have sbrs. So if i shoulder my glock 19 its an sbr... got it. Get on the right team dude. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 9:02:52 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The answer to the original question is "yes", but apparently no one gets the significance of it. Any system of logic can get twisted, even without politics, and the ATF is pure politics, at odds with the constitution and common sense. This is the beginning of the death spiral. In a few years there will be no A T F or NFA. The idiots wanted things their way and jumped the shark right over into psychopath mode. Everyone can see this ruling is a violation of logical determination, due process, and has reduced the confidence level in the system to zero. No credibility means no authority. They just committed suicide, but it will take a while for that to become obvious. Want to help kill the ATF? Buy a SIG Brace. I wouldn't hold my breath. When in our lifetimes have you ever seen the government get less obtrusive ? I would totally be doing the 'happy dance' if you were correct |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 9:03:05 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You idiots with your sig brace is a joke. The fucking stamp is $200. You had to press this fucking thing. Its a useless pos. Keep poking the bear.... You tapco fuct idiots forced them to make a decision. Which was the same as before.... If u shoulder a fucking pistol its an SBR. lol CT |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 9:08:14 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
actually they said "if you install the sig brace with the intent to shoulder it" it is an SBR. If you install with intent to strap to your arm and then you shoulder it later, you are good to go. it is the intent when installing it, not how you end up using it. Still extremely fucked up though. Sort of disagree with everyone that is saying this is all about all about use. Also disagree with those that say use doesn't factor in at all. If you intend to configure the gun with a shoulder stock and the tube is less than 16" then that configuration is an SBR. If you're not disabled and you put a sig brace on your AR pistol, they don't have anything on you per se. Right up to when you shoulder it. How you USE it is evidence of what you intended when you configured it that way. If you USE the brace as a stock, the law gets to tell the jury that's evidence of what you intended when you put it on there. After watching this entire time while people openly, brazenly, and stupidly went out and made videos using the brace as a stock, and dozens of forum posts saying they would use the brace to get a pseudo SBR, it shouldn't be surprising that the ATF feels like it has some material to use as traction for the intent to configure an SBR. As far as I can tell, you're only going to be guaranteed in the clear if you're in that category of disabled folks the device was described to help when it was submitted. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 9:19:21 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sort of disagree with everyone that is saying this is all about all about use. Also disagree with those that say use doesn't factor in at all. If you intend to configure the gun with a shoulder stock and the tube is less than 16" then that configuration is an SBR. If you're not disabled and you put a sig brace on your AR pistol, they don't have anything on you per se. Right up to when you shoulder it. How you USE it is evidence of what you intended when you configured it that way. If you USE the brace as a stock, the law gets to tell the jury that's evidence of what you intended when you put it on there. After watching this entire time while people openly, brazenly, and stupidly went out and made videos using the brace as a stock, and dozens of forum posts saying they would use the brace to get a pseudo SBR, it shouldn't be surprising that the ATF feels like it has some material to use as traction for the intent to configure an SBR. As far as I can tell, you're only going to be guaranteed in the clear if you're in that category of disabled folks the device was described to help when it was submitted. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: actually they said "if you install the sig brace with the intent to shoulder it" it is an SBR. If you install with intent to strap to your arm and then you shoulder it later, you are good to go. it is the intent when installing it, not how you end up using it. Still extremely fucked up though. Sort of disagree with everyone that is saying this is all about all about use. Also disagree with those that say use doesn't factor in at all. If you intend to configure the gun with a shoulder stock and the tube is less than 16" then that configuration is an SBR. If you're not disabled and you put a sig brace on your AR pistol, they don't have anything on you per se. Right up to when you shoulder it. How you USE it is evidence of what you intended when you configured it that way. If you USE the brace as a stock, the law gets to tell the jury that's evidence of what you intended when you put it on there. After watching this entire time while people openly, brazenly, and stupidly went out and made videos using the brace as a stock, and dozens of forum posts saying they would use the brace to get a pseudo SBR, it shouldn't be surprising that the ATF feels like it has some material to use as traction for the intent to configure an SBR. As far as I can tell, you're only going to be guaranteed in the clear if you're in that category of disabled folks the device was described to help when it was submitted. The term <strong style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit;">"Pistol” means a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having:[/span]
So if you hold a pistol with two hands, aren't you using it in away it was not designed and intended for? |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 9:38:35 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You idiots with your sig brace is a joke. The fucking stamp is $200. You had to press this fucking thing. Its a useless pos. Keep poking the bear.... You tapco fuct idiots forced them to make a decision. Which was the same as before.... If u shoulder a fucking pistol its an SBR. lol way to just come right out and let everyone know you're a moron. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 9:57:34 PM EDT
[#36]
The sig brace is the new solvent trap.
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Posted: 1/18/2015 10:26:14 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
lol way to just come right out and let everyone know you're a moron. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You idiots with your sig brace is a joke. The fucking stamp is $200. You had to press this fucking thing. Its a useless pos. Keep poking the bear.... You tapco fuct idiots forced them to make a decision. Which was the same as before.... If u shoulder a fucking pistol its an SBR. lol way to just come right out and let everyone know you're a moron. I don't think he knows the differences between an AR Pistol and an SBR. And I've about had enough of "poking the bear". Save that for when you're referring to the USA, not a group of clowns. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 10:31:50 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am really tire of these threads. Wheel don't read them then. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 10:31:58 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I had a dollar for every Sig Brace thread this weekend, I could buy a stamp and never worry about it again And a dollar for every person that clicks, reads, then posts how they hate so many threads on the subject then you could buy Sig Sauers entire company. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 10:35:42 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The sig brace was screwed more by gun owners than anything, to much bear poking. Yup |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 10:35:49 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IBTL. Thanks for your input. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 10:43:59 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The sig brace was screwed more by gun owners than anything, to much bear poking. This is a retarded argument when the bear deserves to be put down. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 10:46:02 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think he knows the differences between an AR Pistol and an SBR. And I've about had enough of "poking the bear". Save that for when you're referring to the USA, not a group of clowns. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You idiots with your sig brace is a joke. The fucking stamp is $200. You had to press this fucking thing. Its a useless pos. Keep poking the bear.... You tapco fuct idiots forced them to make a decision. Which was the same as before.... If u shoulder a fucking pistol its an SBR. lol way to just come right out and let everyone know you're a moron. I don't think he knows the differences between an AR Pistol and an SBR. And I've about had enough of "poking the bear". Save that for when you're referring to the USA, not a group of clowns. Apart from an SBR having a stock and perhaps a longer buffer tube/buffer, please enlighten us, because I for the life of me don't know the real (i.e. functional or physical) difference either. Every other part is identical. Every one. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 10:59:06 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You idiots with your sig brace is a joke. The fucking stamp is $200. You had to press this fucking thing. Its a useless pos. Keep poking the bear.... You tapco fuct idiots forced them to make a decision. Which was the same as before.... If u shoulder a fucking pistol its an SBR. Well........no. If you shoot it with one hand, it's a pistol. If you shoot it with two hands, it's an AOW. If you shoulder it, it's a rifle. Simple really. We do need to get a determination letter from the ATF regarding a firearm that is shot with one hand while shouldered. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 11:02:51 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yup Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The sig brace was screwed more by gun owners than anything, to much bear poking. Yup I lol in both of your general directions. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 11:07:31 PM EDT
[#46]
so when the drones or satellite records you at the range you are screwed?
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Posted: 1/18/2015 11:10:44 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
lol Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You idiots with your sig brace is a joke. The fucking stamp is $200. You had to press this fucking thing. Its a useless pos. Keep poking the bear.... You tapco fuct idiots forced them to make a decision. Which was the same as before.... If u shoulder a fucking pistol its an SBR. lol This. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 11:14:58 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Op You are exactly right. It is dangerous and sets the stage for the bumpfiring is redesigning argument which is sure to come next. On that note they could end up banning Jerry Miculek from firing any firearm. "I'm sorry sir, in your hands that revolver is a machinegun, to jail with you." |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 11:16:46 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Apart from an SBR having a stock and perhaps a longer buffer tube/buffer, please enlighten us, because I for the life of me don't know the real (i.e. functional or physical) difference either. Every other part is identical. Every one. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You idiots with your sig brace is a joke. The fucking stamp is $200. You had to press this fucking thing. Its a useless pos. Keep poking the bear.... You tapco fuct idiots forced them to make a decision. Which was the same as before.... If u shoulder a fucking pistol its an SBR. lol way to just come right out and let everyone know you're a moron. I don't think he knows the differences between an AR Pistol and an SBR. And I've about had enough of "poking the bear". Save that for when you're referring to the USA, not a group of clowns. Apart from an SBR having a stock and perhaps a longer buffer tube/buffer, please enlighten us, because I for the life of me don't know the real (i.e. functional or physical) difference either. Every other part is identical. Every one. Look at the part in red again. One is a pistol and the other is a short barrel rifle. Some states don't allow you to keep a loaded rifle in your vehicle. And there are rules regarding traveling across state lines with an SBR. And some people can't even have an SBR 
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Posted: 1/18/2015 11:22:31 PM EDT
[#50]
The ATF doesn't make mistakes, only happy accidents..
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