Both of my businesses are moving to a larger facility in November, and I finally have the space for some CNC equipment. I'm a computer programmer and diesel mechanic by trade; very little machining experience and none on CNC, but have about 3 years of training on AutoCAD and SolidWorks. Need some advice on machine selection. Currently looking at a Haas UMC-750 or Mazak Variaxis of undetermined model. I realize these aren't totally comparable machines, but will get to that in a moment.












































 

Sounds like a lot of coin to drop for an experiment

We started out similar , never ran a mill of any kind , bought a cheap CNC, figured out how to run it.

Started making parts, couldn't keep up

Bought another faster machine, sold more stuff

Bought a 2nd machine.

we don't need that kind of travel, we don't have $50K in everything

I run a Mazak 750 5x with a 80 tool magazine. It's a great machine over all. Spindle turning 10000rpm is very nice to make parts in very short time.

I love the auto tool setting arm just make sure the ooh length is correct and zero gauge out each tool as you set it.


The bad, if you don't spray off the fixture table of chips you will have a fixture on the floor lol.

I'm not sure what your going to make but makino and Kia have some good machines also

So, you don't have any experience with CNC machining, you want to prototype your stuff, and you're just going to go balls deep with a 5 axis machine?

Yeah, you don't need advice, because you're probably going to ignore it.

Definitely go with the HAAS.  Since you're going to be crashing the everliving fuck out of the machine, you want good service.  HAAS is far more responsive than Mazak.

I'm a Mazak fan, we recently bought a V100 and E1850.

If you are looking to prototype and R&d work, why are you jumping into a five axis machine?

Without knowing more I think you should be starting out with a 3 or 4 axis machine. If I had to buy one right now it would be a Hurco VMX30.
I could have you making parts with one over the phone in a half an hour or less, at the control without buying additional software, that you'll most likely have to take classes to learn.

I run a Mazak Vtc 30, great machine.

 

 

 








 

Carefully noted. The Haas site listed both options on a couple of pages, but it doesn't appear on any of the selections when  using their quote tool.

 

 

Not true, Haas has a 5-axis machine series - I would avoid MasterCam if you plan on doing a lot of 5-axis work.  Look at PowerMill or Unigraphics NX for robust solutions in the same price range.

Take a look at a Brother TC32.  You can start with 3 axis and upgrade to a 5 axis trunnion later after you learn how to run.  Economical and reliable.

Get the Haas and don't look back brother. The price is right and they are real good machines. If you were going to be in big production I'd say go for the Mazak. But for a light duty R&D mill you just can't go wrong with the Haas.

Gotcha.  I will add that I think the OP is in for a steep learning curve - with no machining experience, there is a lot to know.

Buy used




 

 

 

Haas is good equipment for what it is capable of - great for aluminum and prototyping.  They aren't large production steel cutting machines, and the price reflects it. For what you have described, they should work well for many years.

Just out of curiosity, what machine does your subcontractor use?

Pretty much.


*ETA*
But I will give some anyway.

Haas is alright. I think of them as about a 90% machine. By that I mean that they made it about 90% of the way to a really good machne but stopped short of that crucial 10% to make it a real contender with something like, say, a Mori-Seiki. That last 10% is where the extra cost for the better equipment comes from.

Haas has very good options for conversational programming, has a great consecutive engraving capability built right in, is fairly forgiving with the control interactions and does a good job of making chips and even parts.

They don't have long term viability. The sales reps will admit that they are a "7 year machine" (I've heard them do so and I think they're fudging it long by a year or two) but they won't tell you that you'll have all kinds of little problems right from the start. We just bought a brand new VF6 with a 5th axis trunion (also Haas) that by all literature, specs, sales meetings, etc. should just plug and play like all the other Haas made add ons. It didn't and that brand new machine sat there being worked on for three weeks before it did. My buddy has a VF3 he bought brand new 2 years ago. He got warranty repair on the tool changer, the x-axis and the control within the first year. He's now past warranty and he has problems with chatter doing circ interp in the first and third quadrants (about 11 and 4 o'clock) and he now has to try and make enough money to pay for a repair by using that machine. Pretty responsive service though but your techs may or may not know their ass from a hole in the ground. I've dealt with them enough to be able to say that out of personal experience.

My experience with Mazaks is limited but similar. I'd give them about a 95% overall. A guy I've known for over 15 years just headed up a major effort for a place he worked last year involving a brand new Mazak. He had horror stories about all the things they ordered, were assured came as either built in or were plug and play and turned out to often be neither. Tool hives, high speed spindles, the better control, the thing had to be basically taken all the way apart and rebuilt everytime it turned out that they didn't get shipped what they paid for.

You really should consider starting out far less ambitiously. Even though it is CNC, that doesn't make it a xerox machine.

In the price range you're looking at, another option would be a DMG Mori Seiki DMU50. http://us.dmgmori.com/products/milling-machines/universal-milling-machines/dmu/dmu-50  Unless you think you're going to be really be doing large turning parts I'd save my money and not get a turning option on whatever you buy.  And if you do get the turning option, I'd stick with an HSK, Capto, or similar spindle for sure.

As far as CAM packages, I won't pretend to recommend one for what you are doing because I don't know that much about 5 axis machining.  The only simultaneous 5 axis work I've done is on a Mill-Turn with Esprit.  But you might consider looking at what automated types of cycles whatever you look at has for things like porting or impeller machining if you're going to do turbo stuff.

You have big balls to jump in that deep for your first machine, but if you get some training and use your brain you'll be fine.  I wouldn't throw a head up there on the first day and go at it if I were you

Mostly Mazak. Mix of a few Variaxis, Integrex, and others.

 

I'm not hostile.  I'm just being honest.  Jumping into 5 axis is ridiculous.  Show me what you want to make and I'll bet you Pmags I can show you how to make it in multiple setups in a 3 axis or 4 axis machine.  The level of complexity a 5 axis adds over a 3 with a rotary is exponential.

Yes, I've dealt with both.  I've dealt with many.  HAAS machines are cheaper for a lot of reasons.  They're made cheaper.  They're under-engineered.  They're under powered.  They're modular and use common parts between multiple models of machine (this is probably not true for the 5 axis).  Because of all that, the "HAAS Factory Outlet" dealer system has a spectacular service record.  I have 7 HAAS machines on my floor right now. We beat the fuck out of them, and we like them.  We use them hard for 5 years and then buy new ones.  When they go down, they come back up quickly.  My guys like the controllers and some of the user features.  We also have Toyodas, DMG/Mori, Toshiba, Okuma and have had Mazaks, Kurakis (hence the name), Hyundais, and various other -Siekis.  Toyoda has been the only one I've worked with who can match HAAS in service responsiveness, and even then they're only almost as good.

ETA: Ok.  If you want to do porting, yeah, you probably need 5 axis.  I think you're severely underestimating the complexity of what you want to do (Even if you could do the work by hand with a die grinder to a beautiful degree, telling the machine how is a lot tougher)

And as I have zero experience with true 5 axis, I'll bow out.

 

 




 

Research dedicated port milling machines. Head port work is specialized and requires more than just a 5ax machine. A faro arm would be handy, as well as a flow bench, air speed probe, and all the tools to port it by hand. Most every cnc port was done by hand the first time.

We did the math once on the average human reaction time vs. a full on rapid. That fucker is dead and buried by the time your hand gets hold or e-stop even half way to activation. With your fingers on the buttons.

$78,000. (July through June)

That's what I spent last year realigning, replacing, fixing machines that got bumped.  

We're already over $35,000 this year.

We don't do anything complicated, and those totals do not include roached tools, lost parts, or the hole in my stomach lining.

Mazak is awesome.

If you want rapid prototyping look into the FIDIA 6axis mills

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$  you can spend it or you can make it.

This is a great wealth of information . Thanks for this thread guys

Luckily I have pretty available access to flow and speed measuring equipment with another shop who has always done well for us. As for porting by hand, that's how we are doing it now. Every time we blow an engine on our test vehicles, it is back to square one. Being able to digitize and reproduce in small quantities in-house would be a huge asset for us; and that's only for cylinder heads. As for development and testing, it gets old to wait weeks to test every iteration of a change just getting parts back- as if pulling the cab off of a Superduty twice in a day, three days a week isn't bad enough (once parts are in hand)

Yeesh. Reading that made my stomach hurt.

 

The best one in my recollection is the guy who (card carrying journeyman btw) stopped a TC to check a thread with a go/nogo gage in the face of the part (good boy!).  Unfortunately he left the gage in the part, shut the door and hit the green button, and sent the turret into the go/nogo gage while it was spinning 1500 RPM and on a 10" BC.

Jesus fucking christ

Have fun with the inconel!

You got one chance at inconel and if you take it too easy on it you blow that chance due to work hardening. Which is to say, it turns into a fucking rock and you can't do anything with it anymore. Not just Haas though, nothing and nobody likes inconel. Sure, you can make neat shit out of it, but that stuff sucks. It's sticky, it's gummy, it's abrasive, it's work hardening like a motherfucker and I hates it. Yes, yes I does. That being said, cutter selection is your real priority with it.

Haas will do alright with harder materials, you just have to take it relatively conservative as far as your machining parameters go. You won't be able to really go on it for as long as a better built machine, but if those are the exception to the rule you should be good to go.

So you're THAT spartan? Ferd programmers?

 

Our HAAS machines are all 50 taper, so not comparable at all.  One of our 50 taper VF5s would run circles around a UMC-750 in material removal rates, even though they have the same spindle drive.  But, you can machine anything that can be machined in them.  Feed and speed dictated by preventing work hardening, and adjust the DOC to what the machine can handle given it's rigidity and HP.

Would love to have a 5 axis machine!  If I were in your shoes, I'd be looking at the Haas due to the low volume.  However, I am not familiar with their controls or software issues.
Have you considered a used machine?

I have and learned on a Fadal 4020HT machine, and added a 4th axis.  I have crashed the fuck out of it, and have a 20lb bin of shame of broken carbide.  But this thing is a tank, and I've never damaged the spindle...

I bought a Super Kia Turn LMS turning center with live tooling and sub spindle....Fanuc control.  8 months ago.  I haven't touched it yet because I am afraid I will crash it....good investment?  No.  Someday I will be making some suppressors (07/02 FFL).  For now, I use my stuff to make very low volume specialized end of arm tooling, weld fixtures, and other items for robotic automation projects.

Software - if you are using Solidworks, I would recommend you check out HSMWorks.  They are owned by Autodesk now, but who isnt?  Anyway - they have a VERY nice CAM package that is integrated into Solidworks.  The 3D toolpath version (3-4 axis) will run you about $10g's, this is what I have.  Their 5-axis stuff is a bit more.  Still, check it out.  I've used both it and MasterCAM and the workflow in HSMWorks is so much better IMO, especially being integrated into Solidworks.  My .02.

Side note - I've tried a few billet AR lowers on my Fadal before adding the 4th axis.  Difficult to do that shit w/o the 4th axis for sure.  When I have more time to put into it, I expect to put a few out.



ETA - if you get into using a Faro, look at Hires from reverseengineering.com - I use this with my older RS232 Faro Silver arm....It is also integrated into Solidworks, so you are digitizing into a Solidworks model...

 


 

Stay away from Fadal. I am not kidding. They're an orphan now and Gene Haas used to work for them but they wouldn't build a good enough machine for him so he started Haas Automation and built a way better machine.

DO. NOT. BUY. A. FADAL.

My Fadal paid for itself on the first job I ran with it.  Now it makes me money every time I use it.  This is bad how?

Also ETA - I did not recommend he buy a Fadal.  $160 to $300k is a far bigger budget than the $12k I have in mine.  But the return on investment was quick for my applications.  I am not making injection molds dude.

 

Yeah..I bet he needed new underoos after that one.  

I've been running HSMWorks for about 3 years now and really like it.  I don't have any info to add on their 5 axis, but they have a user forum with some nice folks who seem to answer pretty quick.  

It's worth an ask of other 5-axis users, and it's worth contacting Nexgen CAM to see if you can get a free 30 day demo, which I am almost positive they will offer you.
They are also excellent in any issues with posts for your machine, and will work with you to customize it if needed....

http://camforum.autodesk.com/

http://nexgencam.com/

I am not a machinist by trade.  I am an ME and own a robotics company.  Decided one day I wanted to mount a rifle to a robot.  Ended up with an 07/02 and a few funny facial expressions from the ATF agent who interviewed me.  LOL.  When I have time, I'll finish one and post a video.

Four brand new spindl;es in a single year old Fadal 4020 in '06 or '07 and we weren't making molds either. All plastic and aluminum that ran on that machine. In my experience Fadal has a serious problem making corners unless you slow it wayyyyy down for it. We kept getting these weird faceted shapes with a 3/8 Destiny 3 flute at 10,000 RPM doing 40 IPM in Mic-6 Aluminum cast plate. Had to slow it down to 15 IPM before we could get it to keep up at the corners.

Software glitches. Too much cutter comp in practically any machine ever made and it just alrams and says it can't get there. On our 6030 it figured it meant go to the other side of the cutter so instead of getting a CW arc with a dovetail cutter it went CCW to try to catch the comp. Left the end of that cutter buried in the aluminum and headed for mexico.

Random decisions on the part of the machine to just put that hole somewhere else. Just, you know, because.

They were a tap breaking, spindle eating mess with personality issues.

Haas is the Poulan chainsaw of the  CNC world, but for 1 off R&D work done by a guy learning the ropes, I think it will suit you fine, if you are going to do production work, and want stuff done as fast as possible, you'll want something better, I'm becoming very fond of the Okuma stuff, YMMV.
Josh

I doubt that.  A few years ago is was less than half that.  Most of the high end stuff I've seen runs around 25k or so, and unless they've changed markets, Mastercam is not high end.  That being said we use mostly Mastercam.  Just haven't bought a multi axis seat in several years.