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Posted: 10/23/2013 7:02:54 PM EDT
[#1]
Sitting outside should never be an option for any of these old birds. See my statement way up thread about the Memphis Belle. When I saw her many (more than 40) years ago she was full of decades worth of bird nest and bird crap
 . I wish she could have stayed in Memphis and been properly restored but at least she is in a much better home now.
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Posted: 10/23/2013 7:06:59 PM EDT
[#2]
Sad for loss of life, RIP, as well as loss of
another warbird...they ain't making no more of 'em. 
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Posted: 10/23/2013 7:17:05 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I really wish they would just stop flying all these old birds while we still have a few to look at. Not sure if serious. For every airworthy warbird out there, there's about a dozen or more static (non-flying) versions out there. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 7:20:27 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not sure if serious. For every airworthy warbird out there, there's about a dozen or more static (non-flying) versions out there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I really wish they would just stop flying all these old birds while we still have a few to look at. Not sure if serious. For every airworthy warbird out there, there's about a dozen or more static (non-flying) versions out there. That's good to know... Simply one of the most beautiful aircraft ever. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 7:20:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Damn.
That plane was one of five that flew over Kyle Field on Saturday as the National Anthem ended. As I watched them putter and bounce about overhead, I could not help but wonder...you get the picture. I wonder if this will impact any future flyovers of antique(is that the correct term) aircraft. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 7:32:09 PM EDT
[#6]
Warbird life will continue. Its just an unfortunate loss of life.
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Posted: 10/23/2013 7:33:00 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's good to know... Simply one of the most beautiful aircraft ever. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I really wish they would just stop flying all these old birds while we still have a few to look at. Not sure if serious. For every airworthy warbird out there, there's about a dozen or more static (non-flying) versions out there. That's good to know... Simply one of the most beautiful aircraft ever. Actually, I double-checked, and in the case of the Mustang, flying examples actually outnumber static (non-flying) examples. But for most other warbirds, this isn't the case. For some planes, there are only one or two flying examples, and the rest are all static: There's only one flying B-29 left in the world, but there are 29 static versions on display. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 7:39:22 PM EDT
[#8]
Sad loss.
Any idea of what the cause was ? |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 7:45:44 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actually, I double-checked, and in the case of the Mustang, flying examples actually outnumber static (non-flying) examples. But for most other warbirds, this isn't the case. For some planes, there are only one or two flying examples, and the rest are all static: There's only one flying B-29 left in the world, but there are 29 static versions on display. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I really wish they would just stop flying all these old birds while we still have a few to look at. Not sure if serious. For every airworthy warbird out there, there's about a dozen or more static (non-flying) versions out there. That's good to know... Simply one of the most beautiful aircraft ever. Actually, I double-checked, and in the case of the Mustang, flying examples actually outnumber static (non-flying) examples. But for most other warbirds, this isn't the case. For some planes, there are only one or two flying examples, and the rest are all static: There's only one flying B-29 left in the world, but there are 29 static versions on display. How many flying Mustangs? |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 7:50:36 PM EDT
[#10]
The pilot was friend's with a member here... http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1548335_Lost_a_friend_today.html
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Posted: 10/24/2013 3:22:20 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actually, I double-checked, and in the case of the Mustang, flying examples actually outnumber static (non-flying) examples. But for most other warbirds, this isn't the case. For some planes, there are only one or two flying examples, and the rest are all static: There's only one flying B-29 left in the world, but there are 29 static versions on display. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I really wish they would just stop flying all these old birds while we still have a few to look at. Not sure if serious. For every airworthy warbird out there, there's about a dozen or more static (non-flying) versions out there. That's good to know... Simply one of the most beautiful aircraft ever. Actually, I double-checked, and in the case of the Mustang, flying examples actually outnumber static (non-flying) examples. But for most other warbirds, this isn't the case. For some planes, there are only one or two flying examples, and the rest are all static: There's only one flying B-29 left in the world, but there are 29 static versions on display. Well it's good to know that after we've destroyed all the flying warbirds, we'll still have some to look at. |
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Posted: 10/24/2013 3:32:54 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well it's good to know that after we've destroyed all the flying warbirds, we'll still have some to look at. Seeing a warbird sitting in a museum is like watching the tigers at a crappy zoo. Sure you can see the beauty that these creatures have but you just don't get to appreciate them for their innate abilities. A person would be missing something if they never got to hear the roar of a Rolls Royce Merlin passing overhead. |
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Posted: 10/24/2013 3:33:34 AM EDT
[#13]
Pilot was a friends brother in law.
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Posted: 10/24/2013 3:35:43 AM EDT
[#14]
I say fly them until there is only 1 flight worthy model left, then just take it out for ground turns.
We lost the last flying HE-111 many years ago and IMHO, it should not have happened. |
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Posted: 10/26/2013 3:01:55 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How many flying Mustangs? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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I really wish they would just stop flying all these old birds while we still have a few to look at. Not sure if serious. For every airworthy warbird out there, there's about a dozen or more static (non-flying) versions out there. That's good to know... Simply one of the most beautiful aircraft ever. Actually, I double-checked, and in the case of the Mustang, flying examples actually outnumber static (non-flying) examples. But for most other warbirds, this isn't the case. For some planes, there are only one or two flying examples, and the rest are all static: There's only one flying B-29 left in the world, but there are 29 static versions on display. How many flying Mustangs? World wide last I counted about 112 Only 25 O-2A's |
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Posted: 10/26/2013 3:13:54 PM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 10/26/2013 3:14:04 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I want my grandchildrens grandchildren to be able to see these planes up close. When I was a little kid my father and I went to see what was left of the Memphis Bell in Memphis. It was a sad sight and this was in the early 1960's. My father taught me how to fly our Cessna 182 when I was only 8 y/o just for the record. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I really wish they would just stop flying all these old birds while we still have a few to look at. And instead of "wishing" to deprive owners of their property, how about you cash in the farm, buy them all up and open a museum? I want my grandchildrens grandchildren to be able to see these planes up close. When I was a little kid my father and I went to see what was left of the Memphis Bell in Memphis. It was a sad sight and this was in the early 1960's. My father taught me how to fly our Cessna 182 when I was only 8 y/o just for the record. There are plenty in museums already |
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Posted: 10/26/2013 4:21:13 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Regarding the debate over flying around in irreplaceable vintage aircraft, why can't we simply build modern copies? Is that a stupid question? So the pleasure of flying a vintage plane outweighs the tragedy of destroying one. Would it still if there was an exact clone copy available? Honest questions... Almost all of them already are. Minus some castings and the data plate. 
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Posted: 10/26/2013 4:50:02 PM EDT
[#19]
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Posted: 10/27/2013 4:54:58 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I say fly them until there is only 1 flight worthy model left, then just take it out for ground turns. We lost the last flying HE-111 many years ago and IMHO, it should not have happened. http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=4ae77738-4cd1-451f-8cc6-ce96256729f8 How in your opinion? NTSB report stated: "A loss of engine power for reasons undetermined, and the pilot's failure to maintain aircraft control. Contributing factors were the unsuitable terrain on which to make a forced landing, low airspeed, the fence, automobile, and the school bus wash barn." What was the avoidable event? |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 5:07:21 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Regarding the debate over flying around in irreplaceable vintage aircraft, why can't we simply build modern copies? Is that a stupid question? So the pleasure of flying a vintage plane outweighs the tragedy of destroying one. Would it still if there was an exact clone copy available? Honest questions... Not a stupid question. It only costs money. Google up Everett ME-262, that should answer your question about cost. As far as the P-51 goes, there are plenty in museums across the world. If the .gov and .mil would allow it, there are still quite a few that could be recovered and made operational again. Does someone get mad when an owner of a vintage Ferrari or Indy car wraps one up during an exhibition (or real) race? |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 7:00:34 AM EDT
[#22]
There are more than a few non-flyable ones on static display in museums. I say keep flying the ones you can!
Sad about the loss of life but the aircraft I'm sure will be salvaged and I'm sure rebuilt. They are too valuable to leave one that should be an easy recovery. Have you seen the lengths that people go to to find, recover and restore these planes? |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 7:10:52 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I tend to agree sadly. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I really wish they would just stop flying all these old birds while we still have a few to look at. I tend to agree sadly. There's still so many of them out there today. Buy one if you want. http://www.globalplanesearch.com/usa/warbirds/combat/north_american/p_51_mustang.htm?sort=price List of almost 300 P51's still in existence: mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/?survivors/98877677/complete_survivors |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 7:28:29 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How in your opinion? NTSB report stated: "A loss of engine power for reasons undetermined, and the pilot's failure to maintain aircraft control. Contributing factors were the unsuitable terrain on which to make a forced landing, low airspeed, the fence, automobile, and the school bus wash barn." What was the avoidable event? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I say fly them until there is only 1 flight worthy model left, then just take it out for ground turns. We lost the last flying HE-111 many years ago and IMHO, it should not have happened. http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=4ae77738-4cd1-451f-8cc6-ce96256729f8 How in your opinion? NTSB report stated: "A loss of engine power for reasons undetermined, and the pilot's failure to maintain aircraft control. Contributing factors were the unsuitable terrain on which to make a forced landing, low airspeed, the fence, automobile, and the school bus wash barn." What was the avoidable event? The plane never should have left the tarmac to begin with ? Im pretty sure that's his point. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 7:40:47 AM EDT
[#25]
“A ship is safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for.”
-William Shedd |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 7:48:34 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I really wish they would just stop flying all these old birds while we still have a few to look at. There are plenty on static display. Sure, you get to look at them, but do you get to hear that beast of an engine breathe? There is nothing like it. Listen to it go to full power on the runway, screaming into the air? Those birds were built to fly. Saying we should stop flying them is like saying we should just lock our guns up in a case because we might have an ND someday or we might get an overcharged round and have a KB. That said, this is sill very sad for all involved.
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Posted: 10/27/2013 8:52:20 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The plane never should have left the tarmac to begin with ? Im pretty sure that's his point. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I say fly them until there is only 1 flight worthy model left, then just take it out for ground turns. We lost the last flying HE-111 many years ago and IMHO, it should not have happened. http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=4ae77738-4cd1-451f-8cc6-ce96256729f8 How in your opinion? NTSB report stated: "A loss of engine power for reasons undetermined, and the pilot's failure to maintain aircraft control. Contributing factors were the unsuitable terrain on which to make a forced landing, low airspeed, the fence, automobile, and the school bus wash barn." What was the avoidable event? The plane never should have left the tarmac to begin with ? Im pretty sure that's his point. He's never flown a Warbird then. Would never fly the last of a breed, but other than that fly em! They are not safe even in museums. They are lost to storms, fire, and vandalism. I would rather see them go doing what they were built for. The loss of life is tragic, but they were doing what they loved. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 9:06:01 AM EDT
[#28]
damn. Sorry to hear that.
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Posted: 10/27/2013 9:10:22 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Uh, actually you did. Your words sir were; "I really wish they would just stop flying these old birds..." The first step in getting out of the hole is to stop digging. Your personal feelings do not come at the expense of someone else's property rights. Apparently you can't read. He didn't wish the government would force them to stop flying. He wished they would stop flying, period. The owners deciding to stop flying them would achieve that end. Maybe YOU should stop digging. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 12:28:30 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The first step in getting out of the hole is to stop digging. Your personal feelings do not come at the expense of someone else's property rights. Apparently you can't read. He didn't wish the government would force them to stop flying. He wished they would stop flying, period. The owners deciding to stop flying them would achieve that end. Maybe YOU should stop digging. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Uh, actually you did. Your words sir were; "I really wish they would just stop flying these old birds..." Apparently you can't read. He didn't wish the government would force them to stop flying. He wished they would stop flying, period. The owners deciding to stop flying them would achieve that end. Maybe YOU should stop digging. If the EPA outlaws 100ll the .gov WILL outlaw flying these planes Keep digging |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 12:34:56 PM EDT
[#31]
Blue skies for eternity. Life always catches up with you. Enjoy it.
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Posted: 10/27/2013 12:50:04 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the EPA outlaws 100ll the .gov WILL outlaw flying these planes Keep digging Until there is a replacement for 100LL, there is no need to worry about that happening. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 1:00:00 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wasn't saying they should force anyone to stop flying them. Simply that I hate seeing them lost year after year! Sheesh lighten up people! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I really wish they would just stop flying all these old birds while we still have a few to look at. Yep and stop driving old cars and stop sailing old boats and stop shooting old guns.  I wasn't saying they should force anyone to stop flying them. Simply that I hate seeing them lost year after year! Sheesh lighten up people! |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 1:24:52 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I gotta agree on this. Don't stop flying them entirely but cut back....These planes are pushing close to 70 + years old and you have no idea what kind of shape they are in before they are restored. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I really wish they would just stop flying all these old birds while we still have a few to look at. Yep and stop driving old cars and stop sailing old boats and stop shooting old guns. I wasn't saying they should force anyone to stop flying them. Simply that I hate seeing them lost year after year! Sheesh lighten up people! Many are not "restored". "Rebuilt" is a better term. The condition of the airframe is very well known. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 1:34:52 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
“A ship is safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for.” -William Shedd Well stated. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 1:44:18 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I gotta agree on this. Don't stop flying them entirely but cut back....These planes are pushing close to 70 + years old and you have no idea what kind of shape they are in before they are restored. BULLSHIT! 
If you have ever been involved in a restoration of one of those beautiful birds you might know what you are talking about. It's not like a car, Slap some bondo and paint on it and patch a wire or two. You sure as shit know the condition of an aircraft before you restore it, because you tear the thing down to the spars and ribs while you do it. 
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Posted: 10/27/2013 1:55:57 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wasn't saying they should force anyone to stop flying them. Simply that I hate seeing them lost year after year! Sheesh lighten up people! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I really wish they would just stop flying all these old birds while we still have a few to look at. Yep and stop driving old cars and stop sailing old boats and stop shooting old guns. I wasn't saying they should force anyone to stop flying them. Simply that I hate seeing them lost year after year! Sheesh lighten up people! However, most old warbirds that are crashed are also immediately snatched up for rebuild projects. The P-51 that crashed while landing and killed the pilot at Oshkosh a few years back was hauled directly to a rebuild facility. I imagine that this Mustang will be fished out of the water and will fly again in the future. There are almost enough new-build parts out on the market that someone could just about build a P-51 from the ground up using all new parts. It's getting to be like the Model T market, where new cars can be built from scratch using reproduction parts. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 2:46:54 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
but the aircraft I'm sure will be salvaged and I'm sure rebuilt. This was a high speed impact with water type of crash, not a controlled engine out landing. Google up the images of the crash, it's not pretty.
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Posted: 10/27/2013 2:54:54 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
However, most old warbirds that are crashed are also immediately snatched up for rebuild projects. The P-51 that crashed while landing and killed the pilot at Oshkosh a few years back was hauled directly to a rebuild facility. I imagine that this Mustang will be fished out of the water and will fly again in the future. There are almost enough new-build parts out on the market that someone could just about build a P-51 from the ground up using all new parts. It's getting to be like the Model T market, where new cars can be built from scratch using reproduction parts. Gerry Beck? Precious metal? If that is the plane you are talking about, It has not been rebuilt. It is in a rebuild shop because he owned the rebuild shop it is sitting at. Last I heard his wife does not want to restore it.
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Posted: 10/27/2013 2:58:22 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This was a high speed impact with water type of crash, not a controlled engine out landing. Google up the images of the crash, it's not pretty.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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but the aircraft I'm sure will be salvaged and I'm sure rebuilt. This was a high speed impact with water type of crash, not a controlled engine out landing. Google up the images of the crash, it's not pretty.
I have been looking for pics. I cannot find them. I have been curios as to weather it was a controlled or uncontrolled crash.
The plane was a twin control also as I understand it. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 3:14:26 PM EDT
[#41]
I read a couple of reports, they hinted that it was an extensive debris field. I also heard that someone fishing nearby heard the splash and didn't see anything when they looked-sounds like a rapid descent. How long does the NTSB usually take to release investigation results? Weeks? Months? I hope this doesn't turn out to be an elevator trim tab like "Hurricane Hannah" or the Galloping Ghost.
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Posted: 10/27/2013 3:30:15 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have been looking for pics. I cannot find them. I have been curios as to weather it was a controlled or uncontrolled crash.
The plane was a twin control also as I understand it. http://www.khou.com/news/slideshows/Photos-Search-for-historic-P51-WWII-plane-in-Chocolate-Bay--228974351.html?gallery=y&img=1&c=y#/news/slideshows/Photos-Search-for-historic-P51-WWII-plane-in-Chocolate-Bay--228974351.html?gallery=y&img=14&c=y&c=y&c=y&c=y&c=y&c=y&c=y&c=y&c=y&c=y&c=y&c=y&c=y&c=y It was built as a North American P-51D-25-NA Mustang 1951: RCAF 9294, Mar 16 1951 -- Aug 14 1959 1958: Jul 21, N6525D, James Defuria / Intercontinental Airways, Canastota NY 1960: N6347T, James Defuria / Intercontinental Airways, Canastota NY 1963: N554T, Ray Alexander, Memphis TN 1966: W.R. Rodgers, Rolling Fork MS 1969: to El Salvador as FAS 404 #2 Modified during FAS service to a TF-51, reported crashed 1974: N36FF, Jack Flaherty, wreck 1975: John Herlihy, Half Moon Bay CA 1975: N4151D, Gordon Plaskett, King City CA 1977: rebuilt using 44-74012, first flight Nov 22, "TF-660" 1981: Ben Bradley, Fort Lauderdale FL 1981: Basil Deuschle, Pompano Beach FL 1983: Don Whittington, Fort Lauderdale FL 1987: Robert Waltrip / Air SRV Inc / Lone Star Flight Museum, Houston TX 1988: Doug Arnold / Warbirds of Great Brittan, Biggin Hill UK - stayed in U.S. 1991: William Hane, flies as 44-84660, TF-660 2008: for sale 2009: Dec - N4151D sold to Lone Star Flight Museum, Galveston TX Restoration at Ezell Aviation To be painted as 359th FG "Galveston Gal" 2010: Mar 25 - Reg to Texas Aviation Hall of Fame 2011: Mar 7 - repainted and flown as "Galveston Gal". Work performed: full IRAN inspection, replacement of lower RH longeron, extended vertical stabilizer, main gear re-bushing, replacement of wing fuel cells and a very nice paint job. First flight by Tommy Gregory. 2013: Oct 23 - Galveston Texas: 44-73458 went down into Halls Lake near Chocolate Bay, both Pilot and Passenger did not survive. Condolences to the Lone Star Flight Museum, family and friends of the pilot and passenger. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 5:57:37 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
snip. Thank you. That definitely looks like an uncontrolled impact.
Its hard to say but I do believe I recognize some of those parts that are floating. As far as what they may be. In the one photo it looks like the mangled fuselage just under the water. From what I have read the water depth was around 9 or 10 feet where they went in. Very sad. Not so much for the plane. But the loss of lives. The plane will be salvaged, The pilot and passenger are truly the irreplaceable loss here. RIP fellas.
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Posted: 10/27/2013 6:28:31 PM EDT
[#44]
Doesn't matter to the plane. Where do you think these are being pulled out of 70 years after they crashed? Dollars to donuts a plane with that data plate will fly again. See here for an example.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This was a high speed impact with water type of crash, not a controlled engine out landing. Google up the images of the crash, it's not pretty.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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but the aircraft I'm sure will be salvaged and I'm sure rebuilt. This was a high speed impact with water type of crash, not a controlled engine out landing. Google up the images of the crash, it's not pretty.
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