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Posted: 10/7/2002 8:18:24 AM EDT
[#1]
It doesn't have to be a Remington 700. There are as many makes of Bolt-Action .223 as there are AR15 clones.
Browning Marlin Remington Winchester Sako Plus many more!!! (sounds like a Greatest Hits cd...) Huh... I guess Benjamin001 deleted his post. |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 8:23:26 AM EDT
[#2]
hmm
What are Ted Williams' (the one on tv in this case, not the ballplayer) credentials? Did they say why they came to the bolt-action conclusion? I would think that based on rifling grooves, rate of twist, direction of twist, etc. that the Feds could narrow down what sort of barrel was used in the shootings. I mean, assuming that a substantial enough slug fragment could be found. In light of the fact that the shootings have been single shots and that a bolt action doesn't [edit] eject the brass until you force it to, I agree that a bolt action would be the more likely scenario. Of course, that doesn't prove anything. Anyway, just curious if they had any objective (not guesswork) evidence pointing to a bolt-action rather than a semi-auto. |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 8:23:59 AM EDT
[#3]
Lets not forget the New England Firearms (NEF) single shot .223 rifle (that Gun Tests called a very good buy for a cheap varmint rig a year or so ago). Accurate, inexpensive, and single shot.
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Posted: 10/7/2002 8:26:13 AM EDT
[#4]
It could very well be either an M16 or AR10 that Urodoji has handled, since he has a knack for turning semi and full-auto weapons into single shots, via decimated gas tubes! [}:D]
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Posted: 10/7/2002 8:26:49 AM EDT
[#5]
At this point I think it is just as much speculation as it was earlier that the weapon used was an AR. They don't know.
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Posted: 10/7/2002 8:29:43 AM EDT
[#6]
Not only did he shoot the 13 year old, but according to the reports he was walking next to his aunt. The shooter 'chose' to shoot a child. They knew the panic it would cause.
In light of the media wringing its collective hands last week about the 'schools concerned, locked down' I bet the shooter didn't get the 'hint' that shooting a kid would be even more disruptive than shooting an older guy mowing his lawn... hmmmm. |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 8:31:02 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: Anyway, just curious if they had any objective (not guesswork) evidence pointing to a bolt-action rather than a semi-auto. Send me the case. I'll look it over for extraction dings and pressure bulges. |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 8:32:23 AM EDT
[#8]
The way the media is, the weapon could be a muzzle loader and they would come out with a new buzz phrase such as "primitive assault/urban attack/lethal discharging hand cannon.
I have seen the so called experts displaying all manner of military style semi-autos, and I think, "How the hell do you know what was used if you haven't a clue." If it is indeed a single shot rifle, watch for a call to ban all "sniper rifles." |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 8:46:50 AM EDT
[#9]
[b]UPDATE:[/b] Ted Williams is a DC dectective. He is on Fox news again.
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Posted: 10/7/2002 8:53:04 AM EDT
[#10]
I'm dumbfounded as to why this isn't taking place in Kalifornia, using a .50 cal.
...oh wait, that's right, there's a ban on them. Boy, good thing they got that ban in there - just in time. |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 8:53:38 AM EDT
[#11]
Guess its time to pick up that rem 700 VLS!
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Posted: 10/7/2002 8:57:39 AM EDT
[#12]
I still don't see any evidence that leans towards a bolt action rifle.
I hope I'm wrong. |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 9:02:39 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Not only did he shoot the 13 year old, but according to the reports he was walking next to his aunt. The shooter 'chose' to shoot a child. They knew the panic it would cause. In light of the media wringing its collective hands last week about the 'schools concerned, locked down' I bet the shooter didn't get the 'hint' that shooting a kid would be even more disruptive than shooting an older guy mowing his lawn... hmmmm. WELL ...at least we know it wasnt Lon Horuchi... He aims for children and hits mom ..... |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 9:07:51 AM EDT
[#14]
I was about half asleep when I heard this on Fox News earlier, but from what I recall his theory was that the shots were so well placed that there was no need for it to have been a semi-auto. Something about a bolt action being able to deliver the shot more accurately. I dunno.
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Posted: 10/7/2002 9:09:21 AM EDT
[#15]
If it is a bolt action, the likelyhood that the sniper has some training just went up to 70%....
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Posted: 10/7/2002 9:20:29 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: Not only did he shoot the 13 year old, but according to the reports he was walking next to his aunt. The shooter 'chose' to shoot a child. Thats inaccurate. The kids aunt drove him to school. Dropped him off by the front entrance. As she was driving away she heard a shot, looked back and saw the kid fall down. The kid was alone and walking towards the door of the school. |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 9:21:40 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: If it is a bolt action, the likelyhood that the sniper has some training just went up to 70%.... Training WTF? it doesent take trainning to select a bolt action over any other type rifle. all it take is for someone to walk into a gun shop and ask for a rifle. chances are you will be handed a bolt gun. |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 9:24:45 AM EDT
[#18]
What were the weather conditions..? Winds, rain, etc..?
Yesterday ([i]competing with an AR[/i]), I shot a benchrest match in sustained 20-30mph winds, and consistently hit tagets the size of a dime, at 100yds. Ironically, I was astonished at the accuracy of my own rifle and my own abilities! To make matters worse, I spanked another competitor like a schoolgirl... I refuse to comment that the "spanked" shooter was IAJack, and he was using a brand new custom benchrest rifle! [}:D] |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 9:26:29 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: If it is indeed a single shot rifle, watch for a call to ban all "sniper rifles." There will be new gun regulations because of this. I bet our legislators are swapping votes right now. The dems are probably saying, "I'll vote for this Iraq thing now if you vote for my gun ban next year." |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 9:36:10 AM EDT
[#20]
Christ!
Someone explain to me why it CAN’T be an AR. Admittedly, I sure hope it isn’t an AR and this specific bit of misinformation may be to our advantage (which I grant is a pretty cold thing to say at the moment). This guy has apparently decided to fire one round at a somewhat isolated individual and run. Plus, as far as we know, it looks like every victim went down quickly with one shot. He has no need for follow-up shots, that’s all. The absence of ejected brass does suggest a manually operated rifle - unless he’s shooting from inside a vehicle. Most of us could do a better job on TV than the so-called experts we’re seeing. |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 9:38:24 AM EDT
[#21]
This whole thing makes me sick, especially two aspects of it:[list=1][*]All this talk about the murderer being a "sniper" is media hype. Almost anyone with a small amount of practice could take a Walmart bolt gun, with no scope, and hit a person at 100 yards. Its just not that hard. I don't understand how the "sniper" part of it will play out, except to give the libs a new gun ban target: evil sniper rifles. I fully expect to see a NBC/PBS/ABC/CBS special that shows some buffoon blowing away a cantaloup at 100 yards with an unscoped WalMart rifle.[/*][*]I am afraid there is almost no defense for gun owners against this onslaught. In reality, the most sinister aspect of this is that there is almost no defense against this sort of murder. The old argument that "if everyone had a handgun, this wouldn't happen" doesn't hold water here. This guy obviously chose to do his shooting from someplace where he couldn't be seen. There is simply no way to stop someone from doing this.[/*][/list=1]
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Posted: 10/7/2002 9:39:27 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: I'm dumbfounded as to why this isn't taking place in Kalifornia, using a .50 cal. ...oh wait, that's right, there's a ban on them. Boy, good thing they got that ban in there - just in time. Just the city of L.A., not the whole state, or even all L.A. County. CA gun laws are bad enough without distorting the facts. [rolleyes] BTW, I think Ted Williams is speculating like everyone else is. They won't know what the weapon is until the guy is caught. |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 9:45:14 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Christ! [red]Someone explain to me why it CAN’T be an AR. [/red] Admittedly, I sure hope it isn’t an AR and this specific bit of misinformation may be to our advantage (which I grant is a pretty cold thing to say at the moment). This guy has apparently decided to fire one round at a somewhat isolated individual and run. Plus, as far as we know, it looks like every victim went down quickly with one shot. He has no need for follow-up shots, that’s all. The absence of ejected brass does suggest a manually operated rifle - unless he’s shooting from inside a vehicle. Most of us could do a better job on TV than the so-called experts we’re seeing. I posted what I did, to show that [u]anything[/u] they say, will be pure speculation and feel-good statements, until they have shell casings in which they can examine for extractor markings and other info on the headstamps and necks. |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 9:47:54 AM EDT
[#24]
Everybody is discussing that there is no brass found. So it must be a bolt gun or a single shot.
When I take my Mini-14 to the range, and don't want to piss people off, I use a shell catcher. So, it could be anything. |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 9:49:51 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Someone explain to me why it CAN’T be an AR. Admittedly, I sure hope it isn’t an AR and this specific bit of misinformation may be to our advantage (which I grant is a pretty cold thing to say at the moment). This guy has apparently decided to fire one round at a somewhat isolated individual and run. Plus, as far as we know, it looks like every victim went down quickly with one shot. He has no need for follow-up shots, that’s all. The absence of ejected brass does suggest a manually operated rifle - unless he’s shooting from inside a vehicle. Most of us could do a better job on TV than the so-called experts we’re seeing. Absolutely. And you can bet for that reason we'll never be asked. [V] |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 9:58:26 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: This whole thing makes me sick, especially two aspects of it:[list=1][*]All this talk about the murderer being a "sniper" is media hype. Almost anyone with a small amount of practice could take a Walmart bolt gun, with no scope, and hit a person at 100 yards. Its just not that hard. I don't understand how the "sniper" part of it will play out, except to give the libs a new gun ban target: evil sniper rifles. I fully expect to see a NBC/PBS/ABC/CBS special that shows some buffoon blowing away a cantaloup at 100 yards with an unscoped WalMart rifle.[/*][*]I am afraid there is almost no defense for gun owners against this onslaught. In reality, the most sinister aspect of this is that there is almost no defense against this sort of murder. The old argument that "if everyone had a handgun, this wouldn't happen" doesn't hold water here. This guy obviously chose to do his shooting from someplace where he couldn't be seen. There is simply no way to stop someone from doing this.[/*][/list=1] If this guy isn't a sniper who the hell is? I know that folks on this board are persnickety about terminology but, this is the classic case of a sniper. It may not be playing out like in the movies, or in the latest issue of soldier of furtune, but the guy is very efficient, he doesn't miss often. Yes anybody can walk into a Wal Mart and buy a $289.96 special and a box of ammo and be capable of shooting decently with minimal training, you call these people hunters, they shot at animals, to make a hunter a sniper all you have to do is change the targets to a human. I agree that there are many terms being thrown around on this subject that are either completely inappropriate or they were just made up recently because they sound scary, but the use of the term "sniper" to identify the marksman is right on. |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 9:59:16 AM EDT
[#27]
[url]http://www.tcarms.com/contcarbine/index.html[/url]
They haven't shown us this one yet. |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 10:10:37 AM EDT
[#28]
I'm waiting for the anti-gunners to jump all over this...the timing of it so close to the elections raises some eyebrows for sure...conspiracy theories, anyone???
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Posted: 10/7/2002 10:14:31 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: This whole thing makes me sick, especially two aspects of it:[list=1][*]All this talk about the murderer being a "sniper" is media hype. Almost anyone with a small amount of practice could take a Walmart bolt gun, with no scope, and hit a person at 100 yards. Its just not that hard. I don't understand how the "sniper" part of it will play out, except to give the libs a new gun ban target: evil sniper rifles. I fully expect to see a NBC/PBS/ABC/CBS special that shows some buffoon blowing away a cantaloup at 100 yards with an unscoped WalMart rifle.[/*][*]I am afraid there is almost no defense for gun owners against this onslaught. In reality, the most sinister aspect of this is that there is almost no defense against this sort of murder. The old argument that "if everyone had a handgun, this wouldn't happen" doesn't hold water here. This guy obviously chose to do his shooting from someplace where he couldn't be seen. There is simply no way to stop someone from doing this.[/*][/list=1] [B]Encarta Dictionary[/B] hidden shooter: somebody who shoots at people from a concealed position. I don't care much for the free use of the term sniper either, but I'd have to say it's a "sniper". It may be a 98 year old grandmother with a $98 used savage 110, but that would still make the shooter a sniper. My guess is that the most of the firearms training facilities in the US are puckering their collective arsses right about now. My prayer go out to the victoms and their families. -G1X |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 10:37:34 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: hmm What are Ted Williams' (the one on tv in this case, not the ballplayer) credentials? Did they say why they came to the bolt-action conclusion? I would think that based on rifling grooves, rate of twist, direction of twist, etc. that the Feds could narrow down what sort of barrel was used in the shootings. I mean, assuming that a substantial enough slug fragment could be found. In light of the fact that the shootings have been single shots and that a bolt action doesn't [edit] eject the brass until you force it to, I agree that a bolt action would be the more likely scenario. Of course, that doesn't prove anything. Anyway, just curious if they had any objective (not guesswork) evidence pointing to a bolt-action rather than a semi-auto. This Ted Williams is a fmr DC Homicide Detective...Recall the rate of closed homicide cases in DC??? Now an ATTY! and Well known MUSHMOUTH from the Jesse Jackson School of Oratory. He just coined the new word "DISGRUMBLED" to describe a possible fmr employee of Michaels Crafts (site of 2 shootings/1 vic) Used that 3-4 times on TV and now it's in the Lexicon...and I like it! |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 11:38:16 AM EDT
[#31]
The Moose says No link between current shooting and...
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Posted: 10/7/2002 11:45:59 AM EDT
[#32]
I read yesterday that they had found a .223 brass on one of the scenes. So either he racked the bolt or its semi... I dunno. I just hope they find this guy.
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Posted: 10/7/2002 11:57:07 AM EDT
[#33]
Anti failed to mention I beat him in the first round of competition with a 500 dollar Savage in .223 using a cheap Tasco scope. Maybe if I made better money I could buy my marksmanship too?
Back on topic, I suppose our feats of marksmanship would outright scare the liberal media? |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 12:14:04 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Quoted: This whole thing makes me sick, especially two aspects of it:[list=1][*]All this talk about the murderer being a "sniper" is media hype. Almost anyone with a small amount of practice could take a Walmart bolt gun, with no scope, and hit a person at 100 yards. Its just not that hard. I don't understand how the "sniper" part of it will play out, except to give the libs a new gun ban target: evil sniper rifles. I fully expect to see a NBC/PBS/ABC/CBS special that shows some buffoon blowing away a cantaloup at 100 yards with an unscoped WalMart rifle.[/*][*]I am afraid there is almost no defense for gun owners against this onslaught. In reality, the most sinister aspect of this is that there is almost no defense against this sort of murder. The old argument that "if everyone had a handgun, this wouldn't happen" doesn't hold water here. This guy obviously chose to do his shooting from someplace where he couldn't be seen. There is simply no way to stop someone from doing this.[/*][/list=1] [B]Encarta Dictionary[/B] hidden shooter: somebody who shoots at people from a concealed position. I don't care much for the free use of the term sniper either, but I'd have to say it's a "sniper". It may be a 98 year old grandmother with a $98 used savage 110, but that would still make the shooter a sniper. My guess is that the most of the firearms training facilities in the US are puckering their collective arsses right about now. My prayer go out to the victoms and their families. -G1X Okay, to both [b]JU88[/b] and [b]G1X[/b] I agree with you 100%. I think you're saying much as I am that anyone with some practice can shoot people with a rifle and be called a "sniper." What I'm concerned about is this phoney aura of the perp being a [b]super-duper marksman[/b] who can shoot people at the [b]unbelievable distance of 100 yards(ohh, gasp!)[/b] I agree with what you're saying about the dictionary definitioin, but I think the average joe on the street is being led to believe that only someone with special training of some kind could do this. My whole point is that [b]when you look at the facts, not the hype[/b] this looks very, very bad for people who want to keep the right to own a rifle. Because, in fact, almost any hunter or grandma (to use your examples) could have done it, and its almost impossible to defend against. In our society, that ain't good. The only possible not-so-bad outcome is that when the libs call for banning all rifles, every hunter that ignored AR bans will come out of the closet screaming. |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 12:26:29 PM EDT
[#35]
I wonder why we haven't already heard the WarWhoop of the Anti's on this occasion...
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Posted: 10/7/2002 12:54:18 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: I wonder why we haven't already heard the WarWhoop of the Anti's on this occasion... If you live in Maryland you have: [url]http://www.sunspot.net/news/custom/guns/bal-md.ehrlich06oct06,0,7671397.story?coll=bal%2Dcrime%2Dheadlines[/url] Kennedy-Townsand is all over her Republican rival Ehrlich over his pro-gun stance. Nationally they are waiting to find out what kind of rifle it was. If its a bolt action or single shot they will stay away because they will piss off too many hunters. |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 3:00:41 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Quoted: I wonder why we haven't already heard the WarWhoop of the Anti's on this occasion... If you live in Maryland you have: [url]http://www.sunspot.net/news/custom/guns/bal-md.ehrlich06oct06,0,7671397.story?coll=bal%2Dcrime%2Dheadlines[/url] Kennedy-Townsand is all over her Republican rival Ehrlich over his pro-gun stance. Quotes from the above article: Ehrlich replied, "I've got a 3-year-old son. You don't think I care about that? ... We believe there are 300 gun laws on the books, and those laws should be fully enforced." ...snip... Ehrlich contends that the focus should be on criminals, not guns. He has also said that as governor he would review state gun control laws to see if they are working - a stance that has led some to charge that he wanted to weaken the laws. "We should look to see if the programs are working," he reiterated yesterday. "We should talk to the police and figure out what is working and what is not working." ...snip... Ehrlich cautioned yesterday that Townsend should not try to politicize the recent slayings. "Anyone who would use the shootings as a political issue is sick," he said. ...snip... Ehrlich says he plans to spend a lot of time in Montgomery answering voters' questions on his gun control stance. Good for Ehrlich! He actually seems to have some backbone. |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 3:21:27 PM EDT
[#38]
All I can say is thank God I was able to get my family out of that terminally fucked up state.
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Posted: 10/7/2002 4:37:22 PM EDT
[#39]
At least the nutcase is working in a strong ANTI area. Only good thing about it.
Whoever is doing this is a real nutcase! Even his target selection is crazy - UNLESS he is merely interested in creating TERROR. The shooter is, therefore, a classic terrorist. I am concerned they may NEVER locate this creep. If they do, it would be handy if he is moslem or Mexican. I suspect the nutcase antis will try hard to make hay with this; even if it IS happening in strong anti-gun communist states where they ALREADY have far too many useless laws. Oh well, whoever said antis are hindered by reason! I wouldn't put it past a group of antis that want the democRAT to win governor's race in MD to be behind it. I kinda suspect something like that. If so, our political climate is no better than Afghanistan! The fact we can even CONSIDER the possibility says volumes about how low our opinions have fallen concerning politicians. I find that highly disturbing and an indicator of future disaster. If it turns out that way, then may GOD help US as it is our ONLY chance. |
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Posted: 10/7/2002 5:00:26 PM EDT
[#40]
AR'S ARE NOT IN DANGER
If they determine that the weapon was an AR, chances are that they will NOT be able to ban it. The reason is that any rifle of any caliber could have did the same thing. They would have to ban every single rifle in existence. But if there was a "Heat" style shootout involving an AR, then it may be in danger. SYMPATHY GOES OUT TO ALL FRIENDS AND FAMILY OF VICTIMS. |
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Posted: 10/8/2002 1:13:38 PM EDT
[#41]
At first I wasn't convinced that ARs aren't in danger. By the seventh post, however, I felt confident!
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Posted: 10/8/2002 1:20:00 PM EDT
[#42]
I guess Big Jerk was afflicted by connection problems when he was trying to post.
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Posted: 10/8/2002 1:38:55 PM EDT
[#43]
Calling this creature a "Sniper" is a total disservice to those individuals who have earned the title.
A sniper saves lives by taking out a few select targets and possibly saving the hundreds who would have been killed in a major assault. "The soldier above all others prays for peace, for it is the soldier who must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war." Gen Douglas MacArthur Used to see this quote on a plaque somewhere on Charleston AFB, South Carolina. Don't remember where, but then its been 20 years. This creature is an animal who wants to cause fear in the masses. Hunt this creature down and kill him without mercy. Sorry, I just couldn't go without putting in my 2 cents worth. |
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Posted: 10/8/2002 2:01:08 PM EDT
[#44]
OOOOO now I get it now!
So what your saying is "AR's are not in danger, Ar's are not in danger, AR's" I See. Edited to say: Ar's are not in danger |
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Posted: 10/8/2002 2:24:07 PM EDT
[#45]
SORRY about that. Everytime I clicked on 'submit', nothing happened and it looked like the page froze up, so I kept pressing 'submit.' I thought that post never went through until I looked at it now. At least it raised my post count. Haha SYMPATHY TO ALL WHO HAD TO READ MY CRAP MORE THAN ONCE..... |
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Posted: 10/8/2002 2:28:01 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: SORRY about that. Everytime I clicked on 'submit', nothing happened and it looked like the page froze up, so I kept pressing 'submit.' I thought that post never went through until I looked at it now. At least it raised my post count. Haha SYMPATHY TO ALL WHO HAD TO READ MY CRAP MORE THAN ONCE..... Its no problem, its been happening a lot the last couple days. |
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Posted: 10/8/2002 2:44:13 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: At least the nutcase is working in a strong ANTI area. Only good thing about it. Anyway I thought one spent cartridge was recovered? |
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Posted: 10/8/2002 2:45:12 PM EDT
[#48]
News report states that the young boy was shot from 730 yards away.
That's a long...long shot! |
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Posted: 10/8/2002 2:48:08 PM EDT
[#49]
Anyway I thought one spent cartridge was recovered? Well there was that picture going around that they had found one at the Fredricksburg site but now they are refusing to comment on that. They are acting like they don't have such a item, but it could be a act, they may not want him to start switching rifles. |
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Posted: 10/8/2002 2:50:32 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: News report states that the young boy was shot from 730 yards away. That's a long...long shot! That can't be right. How did the bullet fragment like the doctors insist if it was fired from so far away? No .22 centerfire cartridge would still be fragmenting from that far away-no .30cal would either. |
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