Personally I'm not religious, but I'm not about denying anyone their personal beliefs.  It brought a smile to my face when this mother and daughter finally got their say. [url]http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/07/11/pledge.daughter.ap/index.html[/url]

Yes, the stupid, stupid father thought this was a good way to earn headlines, and will most likely drive a wedge between himself and his daughter over this stunt!

BTW, this is the second time this clown has attempted to prevent the Pledge of Allegiance from being said in his daughter's school.

The first time was, I believe, in Georgia, but the family moved and his case was dismissed for mootness!

What a poster child for atheism this guy is!

Eric The(He'sSimplyAPrick!)Hun[>]:)]

The father has EVERY RIGHT to do what he thinks is best for his child.

Just because IMHO it is too late and she has already been brainwashed into believing in fairie tales does not change the facts one iota.


Why not just change your pledge back to the way it was before the zeleots got a hold of it in 1954?  Was it not good enough from the begining.

There you have it folks! Pure wisdom from the Dominion of Canada!

Sorry, but the law is clear here. No harm, no foul!

The Mother, who has every right to enroll her child in a private, parochial, religious school has said that the child is not harmed!

I'd bet that all of us 'Bible thumpers' and 'zealots' would be willing to take up a donation to send the daughter to a Christian school just to further irritate that POS father of hers!

How much shall I put [u]you[/u] down for, [b]Stormbringer[/b]? [:D]

Eric The(Nada?)Hun[>]:)]

So nice to see the results of ca-nadas socialist school system in action. [rolleyes]

Actually the father has very few rights since the mother has full custody... and it's a good thing.

[red]She has full custody of the girl, which Newdow is challenging in court. [/red]

Not if what he thinks is right, effects everyone else.

Hey, if I ever have a kid, I might think it's best for the kid if he/she goes to school every day with a large-bore handcannon in his/her bag, and 2 pounds of SemTex with detcord in his/her lunchbox, Just In Case(tm).

Dosen't mean it's a good idea, or I should do it.

There's a fine line between an idiotic/stupid idea and a valid concern...and this wacko blew through that line like a cocaine addict in a disco.

I'm not particularly religious, even though I went (well, was forced to, but whatever) to a parochial school. I don't particularly like a lot of references to God in my Pledge of Allegiance. But it's in there, and it is my country, so I'll say it. I don't have the right to enforce my thoughts and ideas on others.

I'm trying to be religiously inert when I ask this:

Was the change made to the pledge in 1954 constitutional?  It would seem to me that it was not.

Why not strike this change, and have children say this original pledge?

I have to totally disagree with you here.  No one forces anyone to say the pledge.  If a child chooses not to say it, they aren't punished.  
A father does not have the right to deny other children their options, because he feels it's wrong for his child.  What I think is hypocritcal is that people are chastised for racism, gay bashing, etc becuase it is intolerant.  Yet why isn't it intolerant when you don't allow someone to practice their religion.  

Which may include moving to.......



CANADA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


BWAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAH!!!!!!LOL!!!!!!!

ETH..

Do not count me in for one RED cent...as I am sure you would know.  However if you guys want to send her to a religious school...I would not complain. THAT is the only place you should teach religion ( oh that and the home)

Spectre....sure attack the messenger NOT the message.  You have NO idea as to the situation in Canada....perhaps if you removed your head from your ass you would be able to see better.

Vector....This does not take away from the merrits of the case ( IMO) as separation of church and state is what is at stake.

Sweep....I agree however the father has every right to try to do what he sees as best.  


Raf....see my response to Spectre

Cereal....well then...what about reciting Satanic hymns then?? Hmmm what about some nice Koran quotes?? Hmmmm  The FACT is it is a PUBLIC school.  If you want to pray to the god or ghosts in a Private school go right ahead.  The bottom line is Public schools must be non-religious that way everyone is equally unhappy.  
I would prefer it if public schools taught that religion is for the week minded individuals in society who need a crutch.  Do you see me DEMANDING that?  No because its a PUBLIC school.  Now if I were to start an Atheist School then I would be in my rights to do so...
Do you understand now?


Gman....well if he wants to live in a country that would appear to have some degree of freedom from Religion it might be a solution.

Don't you have something else to do? Isn't there a baby seal in need of getting his head bashed in.

That always puzzled me.

But then, its been my experience that the spectators on the side lines are almost without exception FAR more skilled, athletic, and intelligent than those on the field, playing the game.

In their own minds, at least.

You gotta admit it, Storm - you don't see us Americans carping about how you Canucks run your...well....whatever kind of side show y'all got running up there.

My sniping aside, this idiot father's situation highlights the importance of a weak decentralized Fed gov't, where the REAL power of gov't exists at the state level (or even more localized than that)

The more decentralized the gov't is the more likely this idiot father could find some slice of life that fits his twisted little view of the world.

jrzy....seals are on the east coast.  And no I do not in fact know Bob from Canada.

raf...the diffence is that Canadians DO know quite a bit more about the American Situation....Thus we area able to comment on it ( or so I thought) If you knew ANYTHING about Canada you would be free to discuss.....as it is that is doubtful.  I happen to post on a few Canadian Politics boards that have American posters....we do not seem to mind their musings as much as you mind mine.....
Why is that??



Gman.....That is because "most" Americans cannot see beyond the tip of their noses.....they know Little or NOTHING about the rest of the world.  
You really should watch "Talking to Americans" some time.....you would be shocked.( and embarassed I would imagine)

What makes his views so twisted and yours so right?  This is a very very closed minded outlook.............He has EVERY right to think as he wishes unless things have gone so far off the edge down south.

I had that experience in Cancun, Mexico. About 8:00 AM at a McDonalds, some American with a MONSTROUS beer belly, obviously still hung over from the night before, unshaven, ratty jean shorts, torn t-shirt comes into McD's literally yelling his fool head off about some dumb thing.



Where do you see I advocate that he CANNOT think as he wishes??? In fact, my plan for a decentralized gov't allows the possibility he can attach himself to a cadre of fools such as himself WITHOUT forcing his views on me. He has every right to be wrong.

He can go join a village of pledge haters, and leave the rest of us alone. What a pathetic thing to devote your life to - changing the Pledge of Allegiance. Time for him to GET A LIFE.

Those "fairy" tales are a part of our American history. The whole point of attacking the word (God), is getting absolutely ridiculous. Now we find out it's steeped in an Atheist wanting to change the entire nation's historical heritage.

Since we're not a socialist nation like Canada...I'm sure it's hard to swallow the MAJORITY rules.

And those "zealots" were what started this nation...of course you would'nt know that.

Ignorance is bliss,

[b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]

 As long as they are not killing animals or burning down the school, more power to them.

The true Koran preeches non violence.  You used a rather bad example here, but I got your point.  If that is want the kids want to talk about they have the right

No I don't understand.  First the pledge does not teach religion.  The pledge may say "One Nation under God", but that is hardly a bible course.  Until the pledge is changed which is up to the American people, if the child chooses not to make the pledge, that is also their right.  
As far as teacher stating religion is for the weak,  I've had teachers preech that all the time.  But they still respected the rights of anyone, to make their own choice on the matter.  I agree with you that a bible or religion course should not be required material, but I don't agree that it should not be allowed.  I don't believe anyone has the right to tell anyone what they can or cannot practice in public or private.  
That being said I respect anyone's right to disagree with me.  But I also respect that guy's daughter for speaking out and making her own choice.

Sweep, he must still try his best.  Now the courts may say different but he still must do as best he can or he is not a fit parent.

Again if this had been a Private school then this case would be moot but it is a Public school issue.


Naked you really should read some books on American History......there were not as many Zealots as you seem to think.  But this has been pointed out on many threads.


raf....I of course will now await the LACK of any of your posts regarding any issue NOT American....say perhaps the Domestic Problems now facing Israel..??  


Gman....that fool in Cancun could have been a Canadian.....we grow them here as well.  Your plan for a decentralized government is not a very workable plan and would lead to the break up of your nation..IMNTBHO.

You seem glad to force YOUR ideals down everyones throat but choke when it is done in return....Interesting very interesting to say the least.

Cereal....why was the god bit added in the first place??  If not to try and legitimize the god concept?  How about the religious types keeping religion in private schools....

Gee can't we all just get along???


Oh BTW I am glad to provide a forum for ETH and Gman to be on the same side!!! Consider it a Pulbic service!!

Why is it that every damn foreigner on the planet wants to tell us to "look beyond you nose, arrogant American?"  "They do it this and that a-way in Europe" blah blah blah.

Why the hell should we?  We are most prosperous, most-egalitarian, most tolerant (yes I know, but look at what happens in most countries to dissenters--we by contrast fall all over ourselves worrying about offending someone--to a damn fault), and the most powerful nation on the planet--BAR NONE.  

Is it possible to learn from differnt viewpoints and ideas?  Sure.  Do we need to look beyond our borders to get those.  HELL NO!  

We have enough diverse, different ideas here already to keep us busy and confounded for a lifetime.  

Worry about your damn selves foreigners!

And if you don't live here, don't participate in government (local and national), don't have the day-to-day rub and friction of living here and being American, YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND what it is to live here!

[/rant off]  

Mag....maybe its because its the truth??  Hence the " I do not know Bob from Canada line".  Its actually quite sad......dontcha think??  "Prolly not"


Will wonders never cease...

I'm wondering why people are not more suspect about what exactly the word "indivisible" means.

Seems to me it means the Fed is sovereign, not the people.

Here's the point.  Yes, we don't look at other countries.  Don't know crap about them--generally speaking.  

Why the hell should we?  That's my point.  Why is everyone else so concerned about what we do?  Because we are the big dogs, that's why.  

Sure we are arrogant. Don't you think we have a right to be?  Look at out track record.  From nothing to big dog in 200 years.  Still going strong despite the rumors. No end in site--despite the rumors.  

Looking outward for answers merely reflects a recognition of inferiority.  NO good American likes to lose--will do anything to prevent it.  WE will solve our own problems.  

That is the essence of what pisses off the rest of the world.  The "arrogance" that we can stand on our own two feet and get it done BY OURSELVES without any stinking help. And 9 times out 10 DO get it done--in splendid fashion too.

Jealousy is an ugly emotion.  


Edited to say: spell checking is NOT ugly.  I should use it more often.  How's that for admitting inferiority and taking remedial steps MYSELF!

Maybe it was you. How big is your beer gut??? Ever been to Cancun??? [}:D]  j/k



What a clueless statement. Sorry, friend but it is.

How exactly am I forcing ANYTHING down ANYONES throat when I advocate a loose, decentralized gov't where every possible slice of life can be represented in America???

It is the strong centralized gov't that threatens freedom. Where some fathead SCOTUS justice in D.C. can tell people in Iowa that they can't pray before a football game.

Or some super conservative legislator from the Bible Belt might tell a Wiccan they can't practice their tomfoolery out in Wackifornia.

MY plan allows the most freedom. Wher the ACTUAL COMMUNITY decides community standards - NOT some bureaucrat over 2,000 miles away. And WOULD NOT threaten this country. I'm advocating a return to the Founding Fathers vision of America - a time when America lept to greatness.

Your statement is Pavlovian auto-reponse type stuff as there is NO WAY you could have thought thru what you posted.

What I am advocating GUARANTEES freedoms for the most idiotic of Americans - even this pledge hating turd.

Perhaps you might wish to ready the paragraph which preceeds your question again if you wish an answer. People in general don't mind the odd Canuck dropping by and contributing to the discussion. However, arrogant, caustic, holier-than-thou Cancuks are a different matter. Labeling Americans as ignorant, having their 'head up their ass', and so forth, doesn't help much. If you decide to treat us based on examples from "Talking to Americans", then we'll treat you like a drunken cross between the McKenzie brothers and Candian Bacon.

Oh...and if you knew so much about American freedom as you profess you do, you'd know that it doesn't matter a GOOD G-DDAMN WHAT I know about canada in order for me to be 'free to discuss it'. Even If I've never been there I have the right to call it a flaming shithole if I so desire. Let's make a deal. Why don't you take a fall of that high horse and quit telling people in a foreign country you don't even live in what they can and cannot do, and we'll try to be a bit nicer....

Or, to borrow a quote from Matthew Stover...
"Yes, I respect your opinion. You should respect my right to break your legs for it".



Perfect example. It's the garbage in principle...if you put nothing but garbage in to a situation, don't expect anything but garbage to come back at you. If you would...to paraphrase from earlier in this thread...take your head out of your ass, you might realize that based on what this websites topic is, and the type of people it draws, that aggregate most certainly does NOT represent 'most' Americans.



No one is arguing that he does not have the right to think as he wishes. He has every right to do so. HOWEVER, when he attempts to blatantly use a child, of whom he does not even have custody, in an attempt to force those thoughts upon the rest of society....then what he thinks and what he does under that perspective become a matter of public issue.

Again..this christian bashing is total bullschitt. Every freakin' place you look in America, it has some sort of religious tie or Godbased ambiguity. The Senate voted 99-0 for the "fairy tale"..82% of America believes in the "fairy tales"...and again, our country was founded by ministers and so-called "zealots"...we've made out ok with what has worked over the last 200 years. Why change now??

We don't lead the lead the world because of atheististic founding principles...we don't bow our heads to thank Budhha for his blessing. We do not put our hand on the Quran to swear truth in a court of law.

And we damn sure don't need the rest of the world's advice on being successful...we already are. We usually thank GOD for it too.

Until they put a gun to kids heads and command them to say GOD..this arguement is ridiculous. Until some atheist parent can PROVE his child is being harmed after 200 years of having GOD EVERYWHERE in our society and educational system...it's ridiculous and ascenine.


Greatest country in the world...not bad for fairy tales, zealots and heretics...

[b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]

Historically I think it was because the founding fathers did form this nation with the belief that a higher power was watching over them.  Anyway if the American population feels it is time to change the pledge again, we'll see where this goes.
And again it seems we differ in opinion about the role of public and private schools.  
Some kids don't have the option of a private school.  I don't think they should be chastised upon leaving there house, because they practice something other people don't.  I don't like the idea of cutting off a topic just because some people don't like it.

Here's my question, then...

"If he's such a damn good father, why doesn't he still live with his daughter and his wife?"

Sorry, but part of being a good father is BEING THERE for the kids!  I married a woman with two teenage boys (at the time) and I have been more of a father to them than their own father - I have BEEN HERE for them when they needed someone!  I have accepted them as my own, and taught them to the best of my ability and to the extent they are willing to recieve.

They are still on good terms with their own father, but I have been here more than he had.  I taught them how to drive, how to take care of themselves in a bad situation, how to avoid bad situations in the first place, how to work on their cars, how to fix things around the house, and much more.  They have actually learned little from their own father.

If he's such a damn good dad, why isn't here still THERE?

BTW - I am also in agreement with the decentralised government model.  The idea of the Federal government is to create a standard set of guiding regulations and to keep the states working from the same page - but the details are to be left to the states and localities.  It is otherwise NONE of the Feds' business when the states do!

FFZ

Case in point: I didn't say the Pledge of Allegience from 1986-1994m which was when I graduated from high school.  I would stand at attention and be respectful, but I did not say it.  I did the same for the National Anthem.  No one ever threatened me or picked on me because of it, and believe me, I got picked on a lot in school until I gave them reason not to as I got older.



Because in leftist, liberal America, they want a dialog.  And that dialog is you saying what you believe, whether it be that homosexuality is wrong, affirmitive action is a joke that destroys hard work and determination of qualified people because their skin isn't the right color, you believe that there are certain things women shouldn't do and then they call you "homophobe," "racist," "sexist," or whatever other slur can be used to shut you up.  That's one hell of a dialog, and oh so progressive. [rolleyes]  It's not a level playing field, and when they resort to name calling instead of actually dealing with the issues it's a little hard to actually get something accomplished by trying to work with them.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

As President Ronald Reagan said, "It's not important that we know who THEY are, what's important is they know who WE are".

Maybe I've missed some important stuff, but I believe the 1st Amendment says that the FEDERAL government will not ESTABLISH a religion as the national religion.

This ruling says that the gov't can't ENDORSE a religion.

This seems to be quite different.  The Constitution does NOT say that the Federal Gov't can't ENDORSE a religion.  Besides, one of the first things the founding fathers did after the Bill of Rights was signed, was to vote on a chaplaincy for Congress, paid for with public money!  You mean to tell me the very same Congress that gave us the 1st Amendment then violated it?

I would say that the act of 1954 isn't unconstitutional because it didn't ESTABLISH any religion.  It's only been in the last 40 years that the whole notion that Gov't can't ENDORSE a religion came into play.

As for the whole separation of church and state... find it in the Constitution.  It isn't there.  Thomas Jefferson meant that statement as a way to protect churches from government interference, not to prevent churches from influencing government.

As for the whole notion of state-run indoctrination cam--oops, public schools... that's another thread entirely.

Looneybin,
I appreciate your comment about separation of church and state.  People usually misunderstand the meaning of that, and think it means we can't have anything religious in schools.  (From a Christian perspective, I'm an atheist, but I'm not threatened by religion.  I'll be the first person to jump up and defend a person's right for religious freedom.)  I believe the part about separation of church and state also had something to do with the church not having power to officially govern the people.

Another comment I'd like to make as a newbie to the board is that I'm a disappointed in the rudeness and lack of respect that I see here.  I know a lot of this ballbusting is in good fun, and I can appreciate that.  I really give the people on this board I know a hard time, but they know I'm just messing around, but what I'm seeing here is going beyond that.  If you guys really believe in 2nd amendment, show some respect for others that do to.  Mutual respect and organization for the people of our cause is the only way to beat the anti-gunners.

I know people don't like it when atheists act like they know about Christianity, but for you Christians out there, how do you think your Jesus would react to the way some of you treat each other?  Look at ETH.  He's a Christian, but he's cool about it.  He knows I'm an atheist, and probably thinks I'm gonna burn in hell, but he's cool to me.

In the King James version of the bible, it talks about Jesus going to the tax collectors and the prostitutes.  He didn't tell them off, make them his enemy, and spit on them, but instead showed his kindness and love.  Hopefully, they realized there was something special about him, so they were apt to listen to his message.  By your own doctrine, are you not supposed to emulate and strive to be like Jesus?  Even as an atheist, I have to admit that Jesus sounds like a noble deity, and pretty much embodies the principles I've tried to live my life by.  Jesus was crucified for his ways.  Would you crucify him if he were here today?  Regardless of your religion or faith, I would hope that you can see the value of basic human respect.  OK, go ahead and let me have it.  I'm ready.

My apologies for targeting Christians.  That was not my intent.  That seems to be the prevalent group here, so I felt it most appropriate.  I would hope that people of other faiths would look at their beliefs as well and see that mutual respect is the only way.

Amen, [b]Brother loonybin[/b], you have it all down correct, Sir!

As the wisest and most intelligent Man Who ever graced this planet (if it be lawful to call Such, a 'Man'), once declared:

[red][b]'No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.'[/b][/red] Matthew 6:24.

The secular humanists know this, and they have very deliberately set about to remove 'God' from our lives. They know they cannot succeed with those of us who are old enough to 'know better', so what better group to begin this transformation from Christian nation to a people with no God, other than the almighty State, than this nation's school children?

They have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams!

We all know what the Founding Fathers meant when they wrote the Second Amendment. Not one of us would seriously argue that they intended a collective right to be held by the State and denied at the whim of the State to the people.

It's called 'original intent.' We understand it, we love it, we live it!

We also know precisely what the Founding Fathers meant when they wrote the First Amendment. We know the 'original intent' of those men, as surely as we know anything.

The establishment of the Church of England to the exclusion of all other religions was not only a matter of great concern and debate in Britain, but it served as an major impetus to the emmigration of many British subjects to the New World, and thereby established this nation as a refuge from the intolerance of a single, government ordered religion.

And make no mistake about it, the secular rulers of England made all of the theological doctrines of the Church of England subject to their whim. Ask Sir Thomas Moore.

With that history in their minds, the Founding Fathers determined that there would be no 'Church of the United States', but that all would be permitted to worship freely.

That did not mean, as some would like to believe, that our government was prohibited from promoting the Christian religion, at all!

How do we know this? Look at what the same folks who framed, voted for, and ratified the First Amendment did!

But I will leave that search for you!

Just remember, when you dislodge the 'original intent' underpinning from the First Amendment, and permit a Judge some 200 years later to give it a totally different meaning than that intended by the framers, then the very same thing can more easily be done with the Second Amendment.

Eric The(Perplexed)Hun[>]:)]

Legs,
Gimme hell!  I sure am whiney today!

LOL!

[:D]

Would you prefer the 3rd or 7th level?  [}:D]

Gee, I get all warm and fuzzy inside when ETH affirms me!  Can we have a group hug? [8P]  It would be a perfect way for me to start my vacation!  See y'all in two weeks.

Has anyone else noticed that those defending this POS in this thread don't live in this country?

You guys in Canada have made it clear in the past that you don't like us opining on your domestic matters.  Well, that goes both ways.  This is a DOMESTIC matter, in other words, none of your damn business.

Oh, Canadians know about the US than Americans know about Canada?????????????  You really believe that pompous crap?

Are you trying to say the only legitimate God is the Christian God? What about the Jewish God and the Muslim God, which we all accept as being the same God as the Christian God?

Storm, most of your posts in this thread make you look like nothing more than a stereotyping hypocritical jackass.  

Post from mattja -

The only 'legitimate' God to both Jews and Christians is Jehovah, the Great "I am" as described in the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible).

The god known as 'Allah' was a creation of the founder of Islam, Mohammad, and while Mohammad presents him as the same 'God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel)', he is most definitely unlike the God described in the Old Testament in so many ways as to defy identifying him as such!

Go to any Muslim website and check on how they view the efforts of Allah in creating anything, much less the cosmos.

So, in short, I could write my own 'Hun Bible' and describe the 'God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob' as an elderly gent living down the street from me, and say that he and the God in the Old Testament were one and the same.

But it wouldn't make it so, would it? [:D]

Eric The(LordForgiveMeOfTheBlasphemy)Hun[>]:)]  

The statement above is one reason Canada is in the shape it's in today... No G*d-given rights = state-given rights= revocable rights.....

Most American patriots recognize that our country was founded on principles that are foreign to the governments of the rest of the world, (including yours). We are becoming more and more like Europe, (and yes Canada too), and we don't like it. The Patriot atitude has always been "screw you", when it comes to foreign opinions. Unfortunatly that is changing. As we Americans become more "tolerent", and socialized, we become more like you, (the rest of the world). It is the downfall of a free people in progress.......

Raf   Well basically you seemed to have taken offense at my commenting on what is correctly an American Domestic matter.

I therefore assumed that you would refrain from commenting on the current domestic situations in other countries.....I happened to pick Israel for an example.


However in looking back at this thread I did notice one thing.....

You only seem to mind it when people who are not Americans disagree with your POV....then you attack them for not being American instead of trying to defend your position.  A very telling trait to say the least.  If an foreigner happens to agree with you, you are strangely silent....why is that?


Liberty.....you are plain wrong....  Most Canadians mirror Americans when it comes to religion ( or most other matters).  You obviously know little about Canada if you think it lacks a religious base.

They happen to mention god in the Canadian National Anthem. ( but I am working to change that up here as well)


Redman....please point out a single issue at which I might be considered to be hypocritical?  You can call me an asshole if that is your method of debate, Trust me I will not be shocked.  However your calls of hypocracy are lost on me...care to eloaborate or are you arguments limited to one liners?


edited to add....

LarryG....please point out the thread in which a Canadian has ever admonished an American for commenting on Canadian Issues... I will admit that we were a little ticked when some of you were commenting on the PPCLI soldiers serving alongside Americans in Afganistan.  We were also less than thrilled when a stupid pilot killed 4 of our soldiers in a "friendly fire" incident.  That is about all I have ever been involved with regarding Candian Threads on this forum.

What do I think of my country.....?? Well READ MY SIG LINE!!  Do I think its perfect?  Hell no but I am sticking it out trying like hell to fix it.  What have YOU done in that regard down south?