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Link Posted: 5/9/2002 5:44:58 AM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 5:51:05 AM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 7:41:53 AM EDT
[#3]
From "The Kinder, Gentler Military" by Stephanie Gutmann Pages 264-5
"If we want to know whether women can hack it on the front line or in the trenches with the rest of the ground-pounders, we should look at the countries that have been putting women on the front lines for decades, right?  And obviously that would be Israel, right?  Not so.  Actually, "women are an somewhat of an after thought in the IDF [Israeli Defense Force]-odd, given the amount of press they receive in the foreign media. " said Shoshana Bryen, who studies the IDF at the Jewish institute for National Security Affairs.  In fact, it women are far less equal than ours.  Israeli women serve in separate divisions named CHEN (the acronym mean "grace" in Hebrew).  They train separately from men and with female instructors.  They enjoy a shorter period of conscription and are eligible for many of the waivers from service that men are not.   And they are kept much further from the front lines.  Up until the mid nineties there were allowed in support roles-as clerks, medics in communications.  The wide spread misimpression that women hole up in the front line trenches probably started with the fact that Israel is the only country in the world that drafts women-meaning the tourist see the bronzed women in uniform everywhere.  Civilians, who tend to not realize there are a whole lot of jobs that don't involve shooting at all (our ratio is about 30 percent combat to 70 percent support), tend to assume every women Israeli solider is GI Jane.  ( I cannot count the times nonmilitary people have smugly produced the "well what about Israel" card when I am skeptical about gender-integrating the combat arms in this country or any other.)
   The myth also probably comes out of the fact the Haganah, the underground defense force that grew up to become the IDF, did put some women in combat units-in keeping with the early socialist philosophy that animated the communal farms in the territory than called Palestine.  In Palestine's kibbutzim, as the were called in Hebrew, no major personal possessions were allowed, children were raised outside the home in large nurseries and everyone was eligible for any kibbutz job-though in practice people tended to gravitate.  the metaplot for example, the people who cared for babies and young children were nearly all female.  In keeping in the spirit of comradeship, the Palmach, the most elite, strike force or the Haganah, was gender integrated as well, though in practice, says Martin Van Creveld, a military historian. women were relegated to support and defense positions once again-holding ammunition, acting as communication liaisons.  Women would take up rifles on the front line if a position was being attacked, but raids against the Arab positions relied on men----  After in a battle in the Negev, which left the ground strewn with bodies, a number of them female and to form, mutilated in unspeakable ways, Palmach leadership ended the policy of assigning women to combat.---
But Israel has changed sine the forties--in other words, there is less sense of imminent danger, as a recent visitor put it. "There isn't that feeling of claustrophobia, of being surrounded by three hostile enemies and the ocean." able to take a bit of a break. Israel has been able to acquire what Van Creveld calls the "peacetime luxuries" of a litigation industry and an influential feminist movement."    
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 10:35:38 AM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 11:05:51 AM EDT
[#5]
okay, and have they made the IDF any better?  Probalby not, so for politcal reasons they have allowed less capable troops into billets, sounds alot like DACOWITS to me.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 11:10:20 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
As for why the WM's shoot at a lesser score, who knows? IMO it's probably not enough dry firing practice.
View Quote


This is probably the most correct answer.

1.  Women have less hand strength then men [b]in general[/b] (I hope I am not offending you Tatjana [:)]).

2.  M16A2 triggers are not customized Jewel 2-stage jobs.

3.  Therefore trigger pull is relatively heavier for a woman than a man.

4.  Therefore, [b]in general[/b] women qualify in statistically lower numbers.

Have those ladies dry fire their weapons more, practice more, and strengthen their digits, and you will see a turnaround in those stats.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 12:12:00 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
For all you masogynistic types out there posting Midol pics..

Can you guys think of ANYTHING scarier than a well trained Marine Female WITH PMS!!!!

The mind quakes at such an image!!
View Quote


Give me a fricken break.  Ya, if someone was shooting at me, I SURE wouldn't want them to have ABDOMINAL CRAMPS or SORE BREASTS or IRRATABILITY, I would REALLY be scared then!!!  
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 12:16:32 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:

Seemed to work quite well for the Soviets.

Works well for the Israelis.
View Quote


Really then why did they take women back OUT of combat roles then?
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 12:39:02 PM EDT
[#9]
Torf at MCRD recruits of both sexes will snap in litterally thousands of times.  I remember snapping strait for 2-3 hours at a time.  God only knows how many thousand times I pulled the trigger in those sessions.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 12:46:39 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 1:14:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Tatjana
Since I am not an Isreali, I had to go to both the Jerseulem Post and Times to find the women you mentioned (only Cohen and Abramov are in any stories, one mentioning Abramov being wound and none mention heroic action.  All those articles stated they were boarder police women, not infanrtymen.  "Cpl. Hani Abramov, who was seriously wounded in the face and hands in a drive-by"  And although many of the male police officer refer to Hani as a good fighter they also stated
However, Tal and Cpl. Itzik Monatzo have their doubts. "Some of the female fighters cannot deal with all situations; they lack the knowledge and understanding, even though they go through the same training. Some of them you can rely on totally that they will do the job and support you, if needed," Monatzo says.

Tal asserts that difficulties sometimes arise when dealing with the dispersal of an angry Palestinian mob or demonstrators. "The other side are humiliated by the presence of border policewomen, they consider a woman's place is in the home. Because of their primitive attitude, the girls [border policewomen] often become a target, tempers swell, the general atmosphere is unpleasant. If you are the officer in charge, you are confronted with a difficult decision as to whether to deploy the girls in the forefront or on the flanks, he says"
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 2:56:09 PM EDT
[#12]
Said it before, I'll say it again.
There's not a woman on this planet that could carry a combat load (80lb.) for 40 klicks, drop pack, and fight well.

This is a fact.

AND what I just descibed is the BASIC requirement of every combat soldier.
Sorry ladies....
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 3:02:32 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Said it before, I'll say it again.
There's not a woman on this planet that could carry a combat load (80lb.) for 40 klicks, drop pack, and fight well.

View Quote


I know very few guys who could do that.  

The relative word being fight "well".
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 3:12:18 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Uh, don't we have some IDF folks on here?

I'd like to hear their opinions.
View Quote


While the IDF has been very effective in war, I haven't heard much that suggests they are particurarly outstanding riflemen (although they are probably good by the standard of the Middle East).

The very best group of riflemen in the world are probably in the USAMU (a few of them have been ex Marines), but the best quality riflemen of any "large" military unit is no doubt the USMC.
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 3:56:09 PM EDT
[#15]
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