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Posted: 1/28/2011 9:47:26 PM EDT
[#1]
The moment ATT turns off my porn downloading machine its fucking go time.
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Posted: 1/28/2011 9:49:13 PM EDT
[#2]
http://www.telegeography.com/product-info/map_cable/images/cable_map_2010_large.png Not gonna happen... ETA: Different higher res: http://eumvno.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/2010_0629_cablemap_telegeography.jpg |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 9:49:55 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: Ours was also a colo (hence, the customer angle). One of the fucking coolest things we had going, was a hand scanner. You put your hand on the scanner, and it dropped the key for your rack. You then got an escort through the DC (with more nifty biometric toys) where you could use your key to open your rack. Quoted: Quoted: Two companies ago (I ain't naming names), we had two Hollywood style NOCs (lighting and all). They were AWSOME looking. They were intended to impress customers, and it worked. The real work was done in ye olde ubiquitous cube farm. Quoted: Quoted: ***chuckle*** That photo of the NOC is monitoring. No actually monitoring/response work are done there. BTW, there's a certain 'bunker' at 811 10 Ave in NYC that would amaze you in so many ways. I threw it in there for good measure because people like lights and pretty colors. Of course they do, why the hell do you think telco's build those things? Usually there's a conference room with a large glass bubble where said telco execs give tours to their customers.... So so true....One day, we'll have to compare notes. NOC/SOC type setups are more marketing hype than anything. They ate that shit up. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 9:49:57 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
The moment ATT turns off my porn downloading machine its fucking go time. First they came for my Forrest Hump DVD and I did nothing..... Next they came for my Fleshlight and I did nothing.... Finally they turned off gimpmidgetswholovedogs.com and I Fo'ed! |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 9:51:00 PM EDT
[#5]
The first rule of modern warfare is to own the skies and secondly to own Communications..
IF you own both..There isn't much way to offer a resistance. Which is why I have no doubt some sort of HAM Radio will be the communications during the future World Wide Holocaust It seems a very good idea to destroy communications of your enemy.. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 9:52:48 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: The first rule of modern warfare is to own the skies and secondly to own Communications.. IF you own both..There isn't much way to offer a resistance. Which is why I have no doubt some sort of HAM Radio will be the communications during the future World Wide Holocaust It seems a very good idea to destroy communications of your enemy.. Pretty much. It's just hard to do, that's all. For 99.9% of the populace, losing google, youtube, facebook and twitter spells death to "the internet". But to those who matter, it's an annoyance. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 9:53:14 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
http://www.telegeography.com/product-info/map_cable/images/cable_map_2010_large.png http://www.telegeography.com/product-info/map_cable/images/cable_map_2010_large.png Not gonna happen... Not arguing with you, but notice how most connectivity does go through the US... the US is arguably a choke point. ETA: thanks for the hi-res map.. I have been looking for one for my cube. 
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Posted: 1/28/2011 9:54:31 PM EDT
[#8]
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Technically speaking, it would be incredibly difficult to do. There wouldn't be a lot of cooperation. It's not as hard to kill it for casual users (read: most people), but to completely kill it for us in the know...it would be pretty damned difficult. Completely kill the internet, to those with technical skill? Impossible... I'll break out a 56K model and call in a 14.4K connection to a dial up server in Nigeria if I have to. IRC/Text is still valuable communication. The nice thing about primitive internet technology is it was designed for military use in the cold war... You know, to maintain communication in the event tactical nukes were flying around Europe... Yeah, it's pretty robust. Not to mention, they'd never kill the internet for "official use"... Access is just the hard part... And getting around "denied access" is a hobby for a ton of geeks out there... And certain other types. TR85. Absolutely correct, the government would require internet connectivity themselves. Many of those circuts that some have said could/would be cut pass government data as well. By cutting off the internet, the government would be impacting their command and control. Think about it, without internet/network connections to local NG bases, Emergency responders, etc how would they be able to coordinate controlling and uprising? Just talking with some of the state sec-ops folks here today. They have their own data/voice network, not connected to or dependent on a normal internet backbone. They are still building it out. It is all digital and uses new microwave link circuits across the state, not the old MCI stuff. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 9:55:02 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
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Ours was also a colo (hence, the customer angle). One of the fucking coolest things we had going, was a hand scanner. You put your hand on the scanner, and it dropped the key for your rack. You then got an escort through the DC (with more nifty biometric toys) where you could use your key to open your rack.
Quoted:
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Two companies ago (I ain't naming names), we had two Hollywood style NOCs (lighting and all). They were AWSOME looking. They were intended to impress customers, and it worked. The real work was done in ye olde ubiquitous cube farm.
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***chuckle*** That photo of the NOC is monitoring. No actually monitoring/response work are done there. BTW, there's a certain 'bunker' at 811 10 Ave in NYC that would amaze you in so many ways. I threw it in there for good measure because people like lights and pretty colors. Of course they do, why the hell do you think telco's build those things? Usually there's a conference room with a large glass bubble where said telco execs give tours to their customers.... So so true....One day, we'll have to compare notes. NOC/SOC type setups are more marketing hype than anything. They ate that shit up. Reminds me of the way my current place...We have a series of Tier IV's where even bathroom breaks require physical security involvement, no not that *kind* of involvement. Any way, you have a full body scanner complete with puffer machine, other physcial security fun stuff until finally your in the raised floor. Then you if actually want to open a rack, it requires a time-sensitive pass-code to open a door where the keys to the rack you want to open is stored. All this is logged, on camera and with multiple credential checks along the way. Crazy stuff. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 9:55:11 PM EDT
[#10]
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http://www.telegeography.com/product-info/map_cable/images/cable_map_2010_large.png http://www.telegeography.com/product-info/map_cable/images/cable_map_2010_large.png Not gonna happen... Not arguing with you, but notice how most connectivity does go through the US... the US is arguably a choke point. ETA: thanks for the hi-res map.. I have been looking for one for my cube. The problem is the internet would still exist outside of the US and within the US. Plenty of ways to connect to the internet outside of the US if needed. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 9:56:10 PM EDT
[#11]
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Well congrats, you (and even here, it's highly implausible) just killed Layer 1 and 2. It'll suck ass, and your easy peasy wonderfully reliable multimedia "web" experience just died, but there are plenty of other physical and data link technologies that, when coordinated amongst motivated individuals, will dutifully carry IP and reconnect you with who you need to be connected with.
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Yes. No. 
Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much. Oh, is that all? And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders? Bummer. Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.
Ouch. Start losing infrastructure and not much is happening is it? This question is academic. If AT&T decided one day "Yeah, we're done, shut down everything" it wouldn't be the same or recover in just a few minutes, if ever, to its original self. Could the gov't. still operate? Sure. They (at least I really really hope) have their own network backbone and can carry on. For the rest of the effective world, when these shut down, it's over (not necessarily THESE, but the sectional COs): http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/418219038_e5f18139c5.jpg http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/mnchmo.jpg http:// http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/stls01.jpg And then the NOCs http://limi.co.uk/system/images/noc.jpg The cat's out of the bag. It is literally impossible for a government to completely kill IP connectivity to the rest of the world, absent a totalitarian (and extremely violent) South Korea style approach, which is never going to happen in the US. Hell, even right now, in Egypt, people are using IP to communicate with the rest of the world. And Egypt is much easier to shut off, from the rest of the internet. In Egypt right now they still have a physical landline connection to the outside world. All they did was shut down the Vodaphone network and BGP. Of course they can use IP communicate when they have a physical link out. But lets say, in theory, that 1/ wireless is off 2/ landline COs are off. How are you going to connect to the internet? Satellite? Sure some have it, but not many. Let's even say that you have Satellite internet, those satellites have to come down and connect up to the network somewhere. Not exactly still going to be on Arfcom surfing around in that event. Sure if you can reach the server on Verizon hardware it would be possible. If Verizon shut down at the same time then the US is off the map along with large portions of the world. This is kinda a cool site I guess: http://ipnetwork.bgtmo.ip.att.net/pws/current_network_performance.shtml ETA: I'll concede the fact that AT&T couldn't "turn off" the internet. Just make it inaccessible for large portions of the world. Not to mention AT&T shutting down would kill people who depend on it to physically connect user and host side, but the "18.7 petabytes" of data it carries daily has to go somewhere to keep carrying on. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 9:57:15 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
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The first rule of modern warfare is to own the skies and secondly to own Communications.. IF you own both..There isn't much way to offer a resistance. Which is why I have no doubt some sort of HAM Radio will be the communications during the future World Wide Holocaust It seems a very good idea to destroy communications of your enemy.. Pretty much. It's just hard to do, that's all. For 99.9% of the populace, losing google, youtube, facebook and twitter spells death to "the internet". But to those who matter, it's an annoyance. I know..I wish I had stayed the course for a degree in Network Engineering... 
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Posted: 1/28/2011 9:58:33 PM EDT
[#13]
Regardless of if they can at present, I can guarantee you .gov is working on it for a "don't get paranoid people this is merely hypothetical" scenario in which they would "never" use it. Just like you'd "never" see military confiscating guns from citizens in New Orleans or that they drilled for that "hypothetical" scenario. Color me jaded 
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Posted: 1/28/2011 9:58:52 PM EDT
[#14]
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Technically speaking, it would be incredibly difficult to do. There wouldn't be a lot of cooperation. It's not as hard to kill it for casual users (read: most people), but to completely kill it for us in the know...it would be pretty damned difficult. Completely kill the internet, to those with technical skill? Impossible... I'll break out a 56K model and call in a 14.4K connection to a dial up server in Nigeria if I have to. IRC/Text is still valuable communication. The nice thing about primitive internet technology is it was designed for military use in the cold war... You know, to maintain communication in the event tactical nukes were flying around Europe... Yeah, it's pretty robust. Not to mention, they'd never kill the internet for "official use"... Access is just the hard part... And getting around "denied access" is a hobby for a ton of geeks out there... And certain other types. TR85. Absolutely correct, the government would require internet connectivity themselves. Many of those circuits that some have said could/would be cut pass government data as well. By cutting off the internet, the government would be impacting their command and control. Think about it, without internet/network connections to local NG bases, Emergency responders, etc how would they be able to coordinate controlling and uprising? Just talking with some of the state sec-ops folks here today. They have their own data/voice network, not connected to or dependent on a normal internet backbone. They are still building it out. It is all digital and uses new microwave link circuits across the state, not the old MCI stuff. Microwaves are good but have problems with interception and interference. Still that MCI backbone was archaic so it's good they're ditching it in place of something else but hard-lines are the way to go; better to use VSAT's but those have a vulnerability to them as well. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:02:06 PM EDT
[#15]
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Well congrats, you (and even here, it's highly implausible) just killed Layer 1 and 2. It'll suck ass, and your easy peasy wonderfully reliable multimedia "web" experience just died, but there are plenty of other physical and data link technologies that, when coordinated amongst motivated individuals, will dutifully carry IP and reconnect you with who you need to be connected with.
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Yes. No.
Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much. Oh, is that all? And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders? Bummer. Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.
Ouch. Start losing infrastructure and not much is happening is it? This question is academic. If AT&T decided one day "Yeah, we're done, shut down everything" it wouldn't be the same or recover in just a few minutes, if ever, to its original self. Could the gov't. still operate? Sure. They (at least I really really hope) have their own network backbone and can carry on. For the rest of the effective world, when these shut down, it's over (not necessarily THESE, but the sectional COs): http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/418219038_e5f18139c5.jpg http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/mnchmo.jpg http:// http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/stls01.jpg And then the NOCs http://limi.co.uk/system/images/noc.jpg The cat's out of the bag. It is literally impossible for a government to completely kill IP connectivity to the rest of the world, absent a totalitarian (and extremely violent) South Korea style approach, which is never going to happen in the US. Hell, even right now, in Egypt, people are using IP to communicate with the rest of the world. And Egypt is much easier to shut off, from the rest of the internet. In Egypt right now they still have a physical landline connection to the outside world. All they did was shut down the Vodaphone network and BGP. Of course they can use IP communicate when they have a physical link out. But lets say, in theory, that 1/ wireless is off 2/ landline COs are off. How are you going to connect to the internet? Satellite? Sure some have it, but not many. Let's even say that you have Satellite internet, those satellites have to come down and connect up to the network somewhere. Not exactly still going to be on Arfcom surfing around in that event. Sure if you can reach the server on Verizon hardware it would be possible. If Verizon shut down at the same time then the US is off the map along with large portions of the world. This is kinda a cool site I guess: http://ipnetwork.bgtmo.ip.att.net/pws/current_network_performance.shtml bgtmo = Bridgeton, MO 
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:02:21 PM EDT
[#16]
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Yes. No.
Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much. Oh, is that all? And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders? Bummer. Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it. ETA: Old map. There's a newer one online that features the public network map. https://www.msu.edu/~perryma3/cas492/att_backbone_large.gif Dude...that's so 11 years ago... |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:05:37 PM EDT
[#17]
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Well congrats, you (and even here, it's highly implausible) just killed Layer 1 and 2. It'll suck ass, and your easy peasy wonderfully reliable multimedia "web" experience just died, but there are plenty of other physical and data link technologies that, when coordinated amongst motivated individuals, will dutifully carry IP and reconnect you with who you need to be connected with.
Quoted:
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Yes. No.
Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much. Oh, is that all? And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders? Bummer. Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.
Ouch. Start losing infrastructure and not much is happening is it? This question is academic. If AT&T decided one day "Yeah, we're done, shut down everything" it wouldn't be the same or recover in just a few minutes, if ever, to its original self. Could the gov't. still operate? Sure. They (at least I really really hope) have their own network backbone and can carry on. For the rest of the effective world, when these shut down, it's over (not necessarily THESE, but the sectional COs): http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/418219038_e5f18139c5.jpg http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/mnchmo.jpg http:// http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/stls01.jpg And then the NOCs http://limi.co.uk/system/images/noc.jpg The cat's out of the bag. It is literally impossible for a government to completely kill IP connectivity to the rest of the world, absent a totalitarian (and extremely violent) South Korea style approach, which is never going to happen in the US. Hell, even right now, in Egypt, people are using IP to communicate with the rest of the world. And Egypt is much easier to shut off, from the rest of the internet. In Egypt right now they still have a physical landline connection to the outside world. All they did was shut down the Vodaphone network and BGP. Of course they can use IP communicate when they have a physical link out. But lets say, in theory, that 1/ wireless is off 2/ landline COs are off. How are you going to connect to the internet? Satellite? Sure some have it, but not many. Let's even say that you have Satellite internet, those satellites have to come down and connect up to the network somewhere. Not exactly still going to be on Arfcom surfing around in that event. Sure if you can reach the server on Verizon hardware it would be possible. If Verizon shut down at the same time then the US is off the map along with large portions of the world. This is kinda a cool site I guess: http://ipnetwork.bgtmo.ip.att.net/pws/current_network_performance.shtml It's WAY, WAY more complicated to totally disrupt comms here in the states. Lines are too diversified, would most uses be impacted? Yes of course but there's enough people out there that will find open lines, again no way can you shut down every single one, or kill POTS to dial up. Read up on how Mitchnik got his kicks before being busted by the feds. Mainly he 'cracked' in corporate PBX's and in a few case government systems; ain't no way the government would shut those down. Guess what, that's a data network and many of these PBX's are not state of the art. Running old versions of *nix with known vulnerabilities; it would make a 4Chan Raid look like an episode of Leave it to Beaver. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:05:58 PM EDT
[#18]
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Yes. No.
Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much. Oh, is that all? Now overlay that with Verizon, Sprint, etc etc etc. Dozens of physically distinct networks in the US And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders? Bummer. Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it. ETA: Old map. There's a newer one online that features the public network map. https://www.msu.edu/~perryma3/cas492/att_backbone_large.gif |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:06:18 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well congrats, you (and even here, it's highly implausible) just killed Layer 1 and 2. It'll suck ass, and your easy peasy wonderfully reliable multimedia "web" experience just died, but there are plenty of other physical and data link technologies that, when coordinated amongst motivated individuals, will dutifully carry IP and reconnect you with who you need to be connected with. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yes. No. Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much. Oh, is that all? And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders? Bummer. Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it. Ouch. Start losing infrastructure and not much is happening is it? This question is academic. If AT&T decided one day "Yeah, we're done, shut down everything" it wouldn't be the same or recover in just a few minutes, if ever, to its original self. Could the gov't. still operate? Sure. They (at least I really really hope) have their own network backbone and can carry on. For the rest of the effective world, when these shut down, it's over (not necessarily THESE, but the sectional COs): http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/418219038_e5f18139c5.jpg http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/mnchmo.jpg http:// http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/stls01.jpg And then the NOCs http://limi.co.uk/system/images/noc.jpg The cat's out of the bag. It is literally impossible for a government to completely kill IP connectivity to the rest of the world, absent a totalitarian (and extremely violent) South Korea style approach, which is never going to happen in the US. Hell, even right now, in Egypt, people are using IP to communicate with the rest of the world. And Egypt is much easier to shut off, from the rest of the internet. In Egypt right now they still have a physical landline connection to the outside world. All they did was shut down the Vodaphone network and BGP. Of course they can use IP communicate when they have a physical link out. But lets say, in theory, that 1/ wireless is off 2/ landline COs are off. How are you going to connect to the internet? Satellite? Sure some have it, but not many. Let's even say that you have Satellite internet, those satellites have to come down and connect up to the network somewhere. Not exactly still going to be on Arfcom surfing around in that event. Sure if you can reach the server on Verizon hardware it would be possible. If Verizon shut down at the same time then the US is off the map along with large portions of the world. This is kinda a cool site I guess: http://ipnetwork.bgtmo.ip.att.net/pws/current_network_performance.shtml This is all academic, and a thought experiment. There's no way in hell I'm going to argue that there wouldn't be a major disruption. But, where there's a will (and complicit network engineers), there's a way. Your days of watching youtube are over, and your web browser is going to become more or less useless. What's more, it might take you a few days (or even weeks) to re-establish IP connectivity with the outside world. But you will. The cat is out of the bag, and there is no shortage of folks (including me, and probably you) who WILL, out of necessity, re-establish IP connectivity in the most expedient manner available. This is all academic anyway, because in practice, it just ain't happening in the US. Just asking AT&T (assuming they had no qualms about it whatsoever, and were motivated to do it - fantasy world) to kill everything off, is a mammoth technical challenge when it comes right down to it. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:07:03 PM EDT
[#20]
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Well congrats, you (and even here, it's highly implausible) just killed Layer 1 and 2. It'll suck ass, and your easy peasy wonderfully reliable multimedia "web" experience just died, but there are plenty of other physical and data link technologies that, when coordinated amongst motivated individuals, will dutifully carry IP and reconnect you with who you need to be connected with.
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Yes. No.
Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much. Oh, is that all? And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders? Bummer. Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.
Ouch. Start losing infrastructure and not much is happening is it? This question is academic. If AT&T decided one day "Yeah, we're done, shut down everything" it wouldn't be the same or recover in just a few minutes, if ever, to its original self. Could the gov't. still operate? Sure. They (at least I really really hope) have their own network backbone and can carry on. For the rest of the effective world, when these shut down, it's over (not necessarily THESE, but the sectional COs): http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/418219038_e5f18139c5.jpg http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/mnchmo.jpg http:// http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/stls01.jpg And then the NOCs http://limi.co.uk/system/images/noc.jpg The cat's out of the bag. It is literally impossible for a government to completely kill IP connectivity to the rest of the world, absent a totalitarian (and extremely violent) South Korea style approach, which is never going to happen in the US. Hell, even right now, in Egypt, people are using IP to communicate with the rest of the world. And Egypt is much easier to shut off, from the rest of the internet. In Egypt right now they still have a physical landline connection to the outside world. All they did was shut down the Vodaphone network and BGP. Of course they can use IP communicate when they have a physical link out. But lets say, in theory, that 1/ wireless is off 2/ landline COs are off. How are you going to connect to the internet? Satellite? Sure some have it, but not many. Let's even say that you have Satellite internet, those satellites have to come down and connect up to the network somewhere. Not exactly still going to be on Arfcom surfing around in that event. Sure if you can reach the server on Verizon hardware it would be possible. If Verizon shut down at the same time then the US is off the map along with large portions of the world. This is kinda a cool site I guess: http://ipnetwork.bgtmo.ip.att.net/pws/current_network_performance.shtml bgtmo = Bridgeton, MO The NOC isn't as big or cool as Bedminster. 
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:08:17 PM EDT
[#21]
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Well congrats, you (and even here, it's highly implausible) just killed Layer 1 and 2. It'll suck ass, and your easy peasy wonderfully reliable multimedia "web" experience just died, but there are plenty of other physical and data link technologies that, when coordinated amongst motivated individuals, will dutifully carry IP and reconnect you with who you need to be connected with.
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Yes. No.
Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much. Oh, is that all? And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders? Bummer. Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.
Ouch. Start losing infrastructure and not much is happening is it? This question is academic. If AT&T decided one day "Yeah, we're done, shut down everything" it wouldn't be the same or recover in just a few minutes, if ever, to its original self. Could the gov't. still operate? Sure. They (at least I really really hope) have their own network backbone and can carry on. For the rest of the effective world, when these shut down, it's over (not necessarily THESE, but the sectional COs): http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/418219038_e5f18139c5.jpg http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/mnchmo.jpg http:// http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/stls01.jpg And then the NOCs http://limi.co.uk/system/images/noc.jpg The cat's out of the bag. It is literally impossible for a government to completely kill IP connectivity to the rest of the world, absent a totalitarian (and extremely violent) South Korea style approach, which is never going to happen in the US. Hell, even right now, in Egypt, people are using IP to communicate with the rest of the world. And Egypt is much easier to shut off, from the rest of the internet. In Egypt right now they still have a physical landline connection to the outside world. All they did was shut down the Vodaphone network and BGP. Of course they can use IP communicate when they have a physical link out. But lets say, in theory, that 1/ wireless is off 2/ landline COs are off. How are you going to connect to the internet? Satellite? Sure some have it, but not many. Let's even say that you have Satellite internet, those satellites have to come down and connect up to the network somewhere. Not exactly still going to be on Arfcom surfing around in that event. Sure if you can reach the server on Verizon hardware it would be possible. If Verizon shut down at the same time then the US is off the map along with large portions of the world. This is kinda a cool site I guess: http://ipnetwork.bgtmo.ip.att.net/pws/current_network_performance.shtml It's WAY, WAY more complicated to totally disrupt comms here in the states. Lines are too diversified, would most uses be impacted? Yes of course but there's enough people out there that will find open lines, again no way can you shut down every single one, or resort to POTS to dial up. Read up on how Mitchnik got his kicks before being busted by the feds. Mainly he 'cracked' in corporate PBX's and in a few case government systems; ain't no way the government would shut those down. Guess what, that's a data network and many of these PBX's are not state of the art. Running old versions of *nix with known vulnerabilities; it would make a 4Chan Raid look like an episode of Leave it to Beaver. Can't dial up with no COs.
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:08:20 PM EDT
[#22]
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Yes. And they will. Most of it goes through a small room in California where the NSA taps it. On topics like this, I never know just how serious I should take responses. 
Room 641A at 611 Folsom Street, SF in the SBC building. They tap the fiber trunk and you need NSA clearance to enter the room. AT&T has several other sites where they do the same thing. Part of DARPA and TIA. And you could cut every fiber and cable I that room and the Internet wouldn't even hiccup. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:10:58 PM EDT
[#23]
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Well congrats, you (and even here, it's highly implausible) just killed Layer 1 and 2. It'll suck ass, and your easy peasy wonderfully reliable multimedia "web" experience just died, but there are plenty of other physical and data link technologies that, when coordinated amongst motivated individuals, will dutifully carry IP and reconnect you with who you need to be connected with.
Quoted:
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Yes. No.
Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much. Oh, is that all? And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders? Bummer. Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.
Ouch. Start losing infrastructure and not much is happening is it? This question is academic. If AT&T decided one day "Yeah, we're done, shut down everything" it wouldn't be the same or recover in just a few minutes, if ever, to its original self. Could the gov't. still operate? Sure. They (at least I really really hope) have their own network backbone and can carry on. For the rest of the effective world, when these shut down, it's over (not necessarily THESE, but the sectional COs): http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/418219038_e5f18139c5.jpg http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/mnchmo.jpg http:// http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/stls01.jpg And then the NOCs http://limi.co.uk/system/images/noc.jpg The cat's out of the bag. It is literally impossible for a government to completely kill IP connectivity to the rest of the world, absent a totalitarian (and extremely violent) South Korea style approach, which is never going to happen in the US. Hell, even right now, in Egypt, people are using IP to communicate with the rest of the world. And Egypt is much easier to shut off, from the rest of the internet. In Egypt right now they still have a physical landline connection to the outside world. All they did was shut down the Vodaphone network and BGP. Of course they can use IP communicate when they have a physical link out. But lets say, in theory, that 1/ wireless is off 2/ landline COs are off. How are you going to connect to the internet? Satellite? Sure some have it, but not many. Let's even say that you have Satellite internet, those satellites have to come down and connect up to the network somewhere. Not exactly still going to be on Arfcom surfing around in that event. Sure if you can reach the server on Verizon hardware it would be possible. If Verizon shut down at the same time then the US is off the map along with large portions of the world. This is kinda a cool site I guess: http://ipnetwork.bgtmo.ip.att.net/pws/current_network_performance.shtml It's WAY, WAY more complicated to totally disrupt comms here in the states. Lines are too diversified, would most uses be impacted? Yes of course but there's enough people out there that will find open lines, again no way can you shut down every single one, or resort to POTS to dial up. Read up on how Mitchnik got his kicks before being busted by the feds. Mainly he 'cracked' in corporate PBX's and in a few case government systems; ain't no way the government would shut those down. Guess what, that's a data network and many of these PBX's are not state of the art. Running old versions of *nix with known vulnerabilities; it would make a 4Chan Raid look like an episode of Leave it to Beaver. Can't dial up with no COs. ROFL....I know a few in Canada, are we invading them to shut down their coms while we're talking fantasy land? As I said, the government wouldn't shut down POTS because they would need it as well as keeping Joe Six Pack from panicking and it might be nice to be able to listen in on conversations and find the subversive. You're trying to hard to prove your point....
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:11:47 PM EDT
[#24]
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Well congrats, you (and even here, it's highly implausible) just killed Layer 1 and 2. It'll suck ass, and your easy peasy wonderfully reliable multimedia "web" experience just died, but there are plenty of other physical and data link technologies that, when coordinated amongst motivated individuals, will dutifully carry IP and reconnect you with who you need to be connected with.
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Yes. No.
Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much. Oh, is that all? And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders? Bummer. Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.
Ouch. Start losing infrastructure and not much is happening is it? This question is academic. If AT&T decided one day "Yeah, we're done, shut down everything" it wouldn't be the same or recover in just a few minutes, if ever, to its original self. Could the gov't. still operate? Sure. They (at least I really really hope) have their own network backbone and can carry on. For the rest of the effective world, when these shut down, it's over (not necessarily THESE, but the sectional COs): http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/418219038_e5f18139c5.jpg http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/mnchmo.jpg http:// http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/stls01.jpg And then the NOCs http://limi.co.uk/system/images/noc.jpg The cat's out of the bag. It is literally impossible for a government to completely kill IP connectivity to the rest of the world, absent a totalitarian (and extremely violent) South Korea style approach, which is never going to happen in the US. Hell, even right now, in Egypt, people are using IP to communicate with the rest of the world. And Egypt is much easier to shut off, from the rest of the internet. In Egypt right now they still have a physical landline connection to the outside world. All they did was shut down the Vodaphone network and BGP. Of course they can use IP communicate when they have a physical link out. But lets say, in theory, that 1/ wireless is off 2/ landline COs are off. How are you going to connect to the internet? Satellite? Sure some have it, but not many. Let's even say that you have Satellite internet, those satellites have to come down and connect up to the network somewhere. Not exactly still going to be on Arfcom surfing around in that event. Sure if you can reach the server on Verizon hardware it would be possible. If Verizon shut down at the same time then the US is off the map along with large portions of the world. This is kinda a cool site I guess: http://ipnetwork.bgtmo.ip.att.net/pws/current_network_performance.shtml This is all academic, and a thought experiment. There's no way in hell I'm going to argue that there wouldn't be a major disruption. But, where there's a will (and complicit network engineers), there's a way. Your days of watching youtube are over, and your web browser is going to become more or less useless. What's more, it might take you a few days (or even weeks) to re-establish IP connectivity with the outside world. But you will. The cat is out of the bag, and there is no shortage of folks (including me, and probably you) who WILL, out of necessity, re-establish IP connectivity in the most expedient manner available. This is all academic anyway, because in practice, it just ain't happening in the US. Just asking AT&T (assuming they had no qualms about it whatsoever, and were motivated to do it - fantasy world) to kill everything off, is a mammoth technical challenge when it comes right down to it. Now the other side of the argument is if asked, would AT&T comply with shutting down the internet? That's where it gets really tricky as they could take a lot of it down, but they could also keep a lot of it up. If it's at that point, the tax breaks and political BS is pretty much over. It's a survival and power question mostly. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:13:22 PM EDT
[#25]
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Well congrats, you (and even here, it's highly implausible) just killed Layer 1 and 2. It'll suck ass, and your easy peasy wonderfully reliable multimedia "web" experience just died, but there are plenty of other physical and data link technologies that, when coordinated amongst motivated individuals, will dutifully carry IP and reconnect you with who you need to be connected with.
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Yes. No.
Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much. Oh, is that all? And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders? Bummer. Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.
Ouch. Start losing infrastructure and not much is happening is it? This question is academic. If AT&T decided one day "Yeah, we're done, shut down everything" it wouldn't be the same or recover in just a few minutes, if ever, to its original self. Could the gov't. still operate? Sure. They (at least I really really hope) have their own network backbone and can carry on. For the rest of the effective world, when these shut down, it's over (not necessarily THESE, but the sectional COs): http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/418219038_e5f18139c5.jpg http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/mnchmo.jpg http:// http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/stls01.jpg And then the NOCs http://limi.co.uk/system/images/noc.jpg The cat's out of the bag. It is literally impossible for a government to completely kill IP connectivity to the rest of the world, absent a totalitarian (and extremely violent) South Korea style approach, which is never going to happen in the US. Hell, even right now, in Egypt, people are using IP to communicate with the rest of the world. And Egypt is much easier to shut off, from the rest of the internet. In Egypt right now they still have a physical landline connection to the outside world. All they did was shut down the Vodaphone network and BGP. Of course they can use IP communicate when they have a physical link out. But lets say, in theory, that 1/ wireless is off 2/ landline COs are off. How are you going to connect to the internet? Satellite? Sure some have it, but not many. Let's even say that you have Satellite internet, those satellites have to come down and connect up to the network somewhere. Not exactly still going to be on Arfcom surfing around in that event. Sure if you can reach the server on Verizon hardware it would be possible. If Verizon shut down at the same time then the US is off the map along with large portions of the world. This is kinda a cool site I guess: http://ipnetwork.bgtmo.ip.att.net/pws/current_network_performance.shtml This is all academic, and a thought experiment. There's no way in hell I'm going to argue that there wouldn't be a major disruption. But, where there's a will (and complicit network engineers), there's a way. Your days of watching youtube are over, and your web browser is going to become more or less useless. What's more, it might take you a few days (or even weeks) to re-establish IP connectivity with the outside world. But you will. The cat is out of the bag, and there is no shortage of folks (including me, and probably you) who WILL, out of necessity, re-establish IP connectivity in the most expedient manner available. This is all academic anyway, because in practice, it just ain't happening in the US. Just asking AT&T (assuming they had no qualms about it whatsoever, and were motivated to do it - fantasy world) to kill everything off, is a mammoth technical challenge when it comes right down to it. Now the other side of the argument is if asked, would AT&T comply with shutting down the internet? That's where it gets really tricky as they could take a lot of it down, but they could also keep a lot of it up. If it's at that point, the tax breaks and political BS is pretty much over. It's a survival and power question mostly. Dude, if it got to that point it get's really, really bad. Honestly, internet connections would be the least of our worry. Thanks for letting me 'geek out' for a little while. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:15:02 PM EDT
[#26]
What I'm getting at, is that in a rule of law country like ours, this just isn't feasible. Suppose the justice department tells AT&T to "shut it down" (they're not the only carrier, but that's besides the point). Well frankly, the answer they're going to give is "Fuck you, and the horse you rode in on", and off to court they go. That's the reality. It drags out for years. All the while, industrious minds find workarounds.
In Egypt, they do nifty shit like threaten to shoot an engineer in the back of the head. It's a little different. It's just not happening here. It would require foreign military action, something the internet is well equipped to handle, anyway. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:15:57 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Well congrats, you (and even here, it's highly implausible) just killed Layer 1 and 2. It'll suck ass, and your easy peasy wonderfully reliable multimedia "web" experience just died, but there are plenty of other physical and data link technologies that, when coordinated amongst motivated individuals, will dutifully carry IP and reconnect you with who you need to be connected with.
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yes. No.
Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much. Oh, is that all? And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders? Bummer. Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.
Ouch. Start losing infrastructure and not much is happening is it? This question is academic. If AT&T decided one day "Yeah, we're done, shut down everything" it wouldn't be the same or recover in just a few minutes, if ever, to its original self. Could the gov't. still operate? Sure. They (at least I really really hope) have their own network backbone and can carry on. For the rest of the effective world, when these shut down, it's over (not necessarily THESE, but the sectional COs): http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/418219038_e5f18139c5.jpg http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/mnchmo.jpg http:// http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/stls01.jpg And then the NOCs http://limi.co.uk/system/images/noc.jpg The cat's out of the bag. It is literally impossible for a government to completely kill IP connectivity to the rest of the world, absent a totalitarian (and extremely violent) South Korea style approach, which is never going to happen in the US. Hell, even right now, in Egypt, people are using IP to communicate with the rest of the world. And Egypt is much easier to shut off, from the rest of the internet. In Egypt right now they still have a physical landline connection to the outside world. All they did was shut down the Vodaphone network and BGP. Of course they can use IP communicate when they have a physical link out. But lets say, in theory, that 1/ wireless is off 2/ landline COs are off. How are you going to connect to the internet? Satellite? Sure some have it, but not many. Let's even say that you have Satellite internet, those satellites have to come down and connect up to the network somewhere. Not exactly still going to be on Arfcom surfing around in that event. Sure if you can reach the server on Verizon hardware it would be possible. If Verizon shut down at the same time then the US is off the map along with large portions of the world. This is kinda a cool site I guess: http://ipnetwork.bgtmo.ip.att.net/pws/current_network_performance.shtml It's WAY, WAY more complicated to totally disrupt comms here in the states. Lines are too diversified, would most uses be impacted? Yes of course but there's enough people out there that will find open lines, again no way can you shut down every single one, or resort to POTS to dial up. Read up on how Mitchnik got his kicks before being busted by the feds. Mainly he 'cracked' in corporate PBX's and in a few case government systems; ain't no way the government would shut those down. Guess what, that's a data network and many of these PBX's are not state of the art. Running old versions of *nix with known vulnerabilities; it would make a 4Chan Raid look like an episode of Leave it to Beaver. Can't dial up with no COs. ROFL....I know a few in Canada, are we invading them to shut down their coms while we're talking fantasy land? As I said, the government wouldn't shut down POTS because they would need it as well as keeping Joe Six Pack from panicking and it might be nice to be able to listen in on conversations and find the subversive. You're trying to hard to prove your point.... This is an academic "could they" question, not a "is the government going to spy through POTS" question. The government really has little to do with it as AT&T owns their network and could theoretically do whatever they want with it. Bottom line, if you're on AT&T's lines, through an AT&T office and they shut it down, you better have a satellite to communicate out from your house. And as I said above, all that T traffic hitting VZ wouldn't flow well either. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:17:06 PM EDT
[#28]
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Yes. And they will. Most of it goes through a small room in California where the NSA taps it. On topics like this, I never know just how serious I should take responses.
Room 641A at 611 Folsom Street, SF in the SBC building. They tap the fiber trunk and you need NSA clearance to enter the room. AT&T has several other sites where they do the same thing. Part of DARPA and TIA. And you could cut every fiber and cable I that room and the Internet wouldn't even hiccup. I know. It's a tap, not the trunk itself. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:18:17 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
What I'm getting at, is that in a rule of law country like ours, this just isn't feasible. Suppose the justice department tells AT&T to "shut it down" (they're not the only carrier, but that's besides the point). Well frankly, the answer they're going to give is "Fuck you, and the horse you rode in on", and off to court they go. That's the reality. It drags out for years. All the while, industrious minds find workarounds. In Egypt, they do nifty shit like threaten to shoot an engineer in the back of the head. It's a little different. It's just not happening here. It would require foreign military action, something the internet is well equipped to handle, anyway. You have a lot of faith in this man: 
But, I agree. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:18:38 PM EDT
[#30]
What is this ATT you speak of? We haven't seen those guys around these parts in decades.
I don't understand the boner some of you guys have over ATT. They are just another carrier among dozens. Nothing more. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:20:45 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
What I'm getting at, is that in a rule of law country like ours, this just isn't feasible. Suppose the justice department tells AT&T to "shut it down" (they're not the only carrier, but that's besides the point). Well frankly, the answer they're going to give is "Fuck you, and the horse you rode in on", and off to court they go. That's the reality. It drags out for years. All the while, industrious minds find workarounds. In Egypt, they do nifty shit like threaten to shoot an engineer in the back of the head. It's a little different. It's just not happening here. It would require foreign military action, something the internet is well equipped to handle, anyway. Right, this is just Fantasy Island. Now here's an interesting question I'll wrap up this nerd fest with....Let's say a moderate to major SHTF situation happens nationwide and you have access to a secure data-center, would you re-locate you and your family there? Assuming you're an employee of said company with access-rights/controls. You can bring you guns, get a few close friends you trust, supplies and head over there. You have physical security, backup genny's with at least 2 weeks of diesel fuel, let's say an alternate and bountiful power source for limited needs, communication, food stores on site (cafeteria,) etc. Depending on where you were in the pecking order of same company or data-center you could easily pull this off. Not sure if you would be better off or not.... |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:22:02 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: What is this ATT you speak of? We haven't seen those guys around these parts in decades. I don't understand the boner some of you guys have over ATT. They are just another carrier among dozens. Nothing more. Well, they're who I rely on for MPLS at 103 sites. I'd hate it if they went tits up abruptly. But yeah. I see your larger point. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:22:35 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
What I'm getting at, is that in a rule of law country like ours, this just isn't feasible. Suppose the justice department tells AT&T to "shut it down" (they're not the only carrier, but that's besides the point). Well frankly, the answer they're going to give is "Fuck you, and the horse you rode in on", and off to court they go. That's the reality. It drags out for years. All the while, industrious minds find workarounds. In Egypt, they do nifty shit like threaten to shoot an engineer in the back of the head. It's a little different. It's just not happening here. It would require foreign military action, something the internet is well equipped to handle, anyway. AT&T's formal response regarding the NSA taps was that they would comply with any legal request from the government. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:23:57 PM EDT
[#34]
Just to be clear, AT&T only owns a fraction of the Internet compared to Verizon. Verizon bought MCI which was the world leader in Internet infrastructure. Verizon currently controls about 70% of the worlds Internet infrastructure.
So to answer the OP's question, no AT&T can not shut down the web here in the states. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:24:10 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What I'm getting at, is that in a rule of law country like ours, this just isn't feasible. Suppose the justice department tells AT&T to "shut it down" (they're not the only carrier, but that's besides the point). Well frankly, the answer they're going to give is "Fuck you, and the horse you rode in on", and off to court they go. That's the reality. It drags out for years. All the while, industrious minds find workarounds. In Egypt, they do nifty shit like threaten to shoot an engineer in the back of the head. It's a little different. It's just not happening here. It would require foreign military action, something the internet is well equipped to handle, anyway. Right, this is just Fantasy Island. Now here's an interesting question I'll wrap up this nerd fest with....Let's say a moderate to major SHTF situation happens nationwide and you have access to a secure data-center, would you re-locate you and your family there? Assuming you're an employee of said company with access-rights/controls. You can bring you guns, get a few close friends you trust, supplies and head over there. You have physical security, backup genny's with at least 2 weeks of diesel fuel, let's say an alternate and bountiful power source for limited needs, communication, food stores on site (cafeteria,) etc. Depending on where you were in the pecking order of same company or data-center you could easily pull this off. Not sure if you would be better off or not.... Depends on what kind of data center. Downtown STL? Maybe not. A "shack" in west Texas with a satellite dish? Bring it. I'd even possibly consider a central office. Find a larger rural one and you could get similar effects. Bell South held off people in New Orleans pretty well... |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:24:53 PM EDT
[#36]
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Well congrats, you (and even here, it's highly implausible) just killed Layer 1 and 2. It'll suck ass, and your easy peasy wonderfully reliable multimedia "web" experience just died, but there are plenty of other physical and data link technologies that, when coordinated amongst motivated individuals, will dutifully carry IP and reconnect you with who you need to be connected with.
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Yes. No.
Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much. Oh, is that all? And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders? Bummer. Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.
Ouch. Start losing infrastructure and not much is happening is it? This question is academic. If AT&T decided one day "Yeah, we're done, shut down everything" it wouldn't be the same or recover in just a few minutes, if ever, to its original self. Could the gov't. still operate? Sure. They (at least I really really hope) have their own network backbone and can carry on. For the rest of the effective world, when these shut down, it's over (not necessarily THESE, but the sectional COs): http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/418219038_e5f18139c5.jpg http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/mnchmo.jpg http:// http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/stls01.jpg And then the NOCs http://limi.co.uk/system/images/noc.jpg The cat's out of the bag. It is literally impossible for a government to completely kill IP connectivity to the rest of the world, absent a totalitarian (and extremely violent) South Korea style approach, which is never going to happen in the US. Hell, even right now, in Egypt, people are using IP to communicate with the rest of the world. And Egypt is much easier to shut off, from the rest of the internet. In Egypt right now they still have a physical landline connection to the outside world. All they did was shut down the Vodaphone network and BGP. Of course they can use IP communicate when they have a physical link out. But lets say, in theory, that 1/ wireless is off 2/ landline COs are off. How are you going to connect to the internet? Satellite? Sure some have it, but not many. Let's even say that you have Satellite internet, those satellites have to come down and connect up to the network somewhere. Not exactly still going to be on Arfcom surfing around in that event. Sure if you can reach the server on Verizon hardware it would be possible. If Verizon shut down at the same time then the US is off the map along with large portions of the world. This is kinda a cool site I guess: http://ipnetwork.bgtmo.ip.att.net/pws/current_network_performance.shtml It's WAY, WAY more complicated to totally disrupt comms here in the states. Lines are too diversified, would most uses be impacted? Yes of course but there's enough people out there that will find open lines, again no way can you shut down every single one, or resort to POTS to dial up. Read up on how Mitchnik got his kicks before being busted by the feds. Mainly he 'cracked' in corporate PBX's and in a few case government systems; ain't no way the government would shut those down. Guess what, that's a data network and many of these PBX's are not state of the art. Running old versions of *nix with known vulnerabilities; it would make a 4Chan Raid look like an episode of Leave it to Beaver. Can't dial up with no COs. ROFL....I know a few in Canada, are we invading them to shut down their coms while we're talking fantasy land? As I said, the government wouldn't shut down POTS because they would need it as well as keeping Joe Six Pack from panicking and it might be nice to be able to listen in on conversations and find the subversive. You're trying to hard to prove your point.... This is an academic "could they" question, not a "is the government going to spy through POTS" question. The government really has little to do with it as AT&T owns their network and could theoretically do whatever they want with it. Bottom line, if you're on AT&T's lines, through an AT&T office and they shut it down, you better have a satellite to communicate out from your house. And as I said above, all that T traffic hitting VZ wouldn't flow well either. Take out VzB, ATT, L3 and Quest...The internet still is working, you just might have a challenge getting out but it's there. I highly suggest you do some research on the topic, you would be surprised just how robust commercial stuff is. Here's an example, I had a customer DS3 go down once because a Farmer in upstate SC severed it with his backhoe. This was a circuit that not even AT&T had on it's map, it dated back to the early 90's when it was BellSouth. That's just one example, I would rattle off a dozen more. Fact is there's so much fibre in the ground that sometimes the telco that put it there doesn't know about it. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:25:09 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Quoted: How many companies own the infrastrucuture here in the U.S. ? ? ? Between cellular, satellite, and conventional broadband, too many for a 'government kill-switch' to work.... Most of the countries that CAN 'turn it off' are in that position because they have been dictatorships forever, and the government usually OWNS all telecommunications infrastructure. it only takes an executive order to send a team to each company to turn it off. By the time the courts get to it the revolution will be won or lost. Not saying this will happen but I AM saying that if there ever is a fight there will be no internet for the resistance to communicate. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:25:54 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What is this ATT you speak of? We haven't seen those guys around these parts in decades. I don't understand the boner some of you guys have over ATT. They are just another carrier among dozens. Nothing more. Well, they're who I rely on for MPLS at 103 sites. I'd hate it if they went tits up abruptly.
But yeah. I see your larger point. What? No diversity?? Tisk, tisk! 
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:26:48 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What is this ATT you speak of? We haven't seen those guys around these parts in decades. I don't understand the boner some of you guys have over ATT. They are just another carrier among dozens. Nothing more. Well, they're who I rely on for MPLS at 103 sites. I'd hate it if they went tits up abruptly.
But yeah. I see your larger point. ATT might provide the MPLS at the core, but the local telcos provide all the local loops. Sprint, Verizon, Qwest, etc... also provide MPLS services too. And also depend on the local carriers for the local loops. ATT is really nothing special since they got busted up. And isn't even Verizon bigger than them now? |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:28:02 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: Quoted: What I'm getting at, is that in a rule of law country like ours, this just isn't feasible. Suppose the justice department tells AT&T to "shut it down" (they're not the only carrier, but that's besides the point). Well frankly, the answer they're going to give is "Fuck you, and the horse you rode in on", and off to court they go. That's the reality. It drags out for years. All the while, industrious minds find workarounds. In Egypt, they do nifty shit like threaten to shoot an engineer in the back of the head. It's a little different. It's just not happening here. It would require foreign military action, something the internet is well equipped to handle, anyway. AT&T's formal response regarding the NSA taps was that they would comply with any legal request from the government. I'd expect any legal entity in the US to comply with legal requests from the government, where the impact to their business is inconsequential, and the request is either legally trivial in nature, or otherwise not in serious dispute. They're not "going offline" entirely, with a faxed form letter from an alphabet agency, ya dig? |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:28:05 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What I'm getting at, is that in a rule of law country like ours, this just isn't feasible. Suppose the justice department tells AT&T to "shut it down" (they're not the only carrier, but that's besides the point). Well frankly, the answer they're going to give is "Fuck you, and the horse you rode in on", and off to court they go. That's the reality. It drags out for years. All the while, industrious minds find workarounds. In Egypt, they do nifty shit like threaten to shoot an engineer in the back of the head. It's a little different. It's just not happening here. It would require foreign military action, something the internet is well equipped to handle, anyway. Right, this is just Fantasy Island. Now here's an interesting question I'll wrap up this nerd fest with....Let's say a moderate to major SHTF situation happens nationwide and you have access to a secure data-center, would you re-locate you and your family there? Assuming you're an employee of said company with access-rights/controls. You can bring you guns, get a few close friends you trust, supplies and head over there. You have physical security, backup genny's with at least 2 weeks of diesel fuel, let's say an alternate and bountiful power source for limited needs, communication, food stores on site (cafeteria,) etc. Depending on where you were in the pecking order of same company or data-center you could easily pull this off. Not sure if you would be better off or not.... Depends on what kind of data center. Downtown STL? Maybe not. A "shack" in west Texas with a satellite dish? Bring it. I'd even possibly consider a central office. Find a larger rural one and you could get similar effects. Bell South held off people in New Orleans pretty well... Yeah that's my thinking too...Shut everything down except core gear, seal off most of the building and hold up. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:30:33 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What I'm getting at, is that in a rule of law country like ours, this just isn't feasible. Suppose the justice department tells AT&T to "shut it down" (they're not the only carrier, but that's besides the point). Well frankly, the answer they're going to give is "Fuck you, and the horse you rode in on", and off to court they go. That's the reality. It drags out for years. All the while, industrious minds find workarounds. In Egypt, they do nifty shit like threaten to shoot an engineer in the back of the head. It's a little different. It's just not happening here. It would require foreign military action, something the internet is well equipped to handle, anyway. Right, this is just Fantasy Island. Now here's an interesting question I'll wrap up this nerd fest with....Let's say a moderate to major SHTF situation happens nationwide and you have access to a secure data-center, would you re-locate you and your family there? Assuming you're an employee of said company with access-rights/controls. You can bring you guns, get a few close friends you trust, supplies and head over there. You have physical security, backup genny's with at least 2 weeks of diesel fuel, let's say an alternate and bountiful power source for limited needs, communication, food stores on site (cafeteria,) etc. Depending on where you were in the pecking order of same company or data-center you could easily pull this off. Not sure if you would be better off or not.... Depends on what kind of data center. Downtown STL? Maybe not. A "shack" in west Texas with a satellite dish? Bring it. I'd even possibly consider a central office. Find a larger rural one and you could get similar effects. Bell South held off people in New Orleans pretty well... Yeah that's my thinking too...Shut everything down except core gear, seal off most of the building and hold up. I've spent plenty of time in COs and telco wiring centers. It is not any fun. Loud and cold. And there ain't no food once the vending machine is empty. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:31:05 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What I'm getting at, is that in a rule of law country like ours, this just isn't feasible. Suppose the justice department tells AT&T to "shut it down" (they're not the only carrier, but that's besides the point). Well frankly, the answer they're going to give is "Fuck you, and the horse you rode in on", and off to court they go. That's the reality. It drags out for years. All the while, industrious minds find workarounds. In Egypt, they do nifty shit like threaten to shoot an engineer in the back of the head. It's a little different. It's just not happening here. It would require foreign military action, something the internet is well equipped to handle, anyway. AT&T's formal response regarding the NSA taps was that they would comply with any legal request from the government. I'd expect any legal entity in the US to comply with legal requests from the government, where the impact to their business is inconsequential, and the request is either legally trivial in nature, or otherwise not in serious dispute. They're not "going offline" entirely, with a faxed form letter from an alphabet agency, ya dig? No way would AT&T shut down their traffic based on a court-order, this would have to be done by force. Unless water-boarding or Jack Bauer is involved, engineers aren't going to corporate with an agent asking which button to push. Some of y'all have watch Swordfish and 24 one too many times. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:31:38 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What I'm getting at, is that in a rule of law country like ours, this just isn't feasible. Suppose the justice department tells AT&T to "shut it down" (they're not the only carrier, but that's besides the point). Well frankly, the answer they're going to give is "Fuck you, and the horse you rode in on", and off to court they go. That's the reality. It drags out for years. All the while, industrious minds find workarounds. In Egypt, they do nifty shit like threaten to shoot an engineer in the back of the head. It's a little different. It's just not happening here. It would require foreign military action, something the internet is well equipped to handle, anyway. Right, this is just Fantasy Island. Now here's an interesting question I'll wrap up this nerd fest with....Let's say a moderate to major SHTF situation happens nationwide and you have access to a secure data-center, would you re-locate you and your family there? Assuming you're an employee of said company with access-rights/controls. You can bring you guns, get a few close friends you trust, supplies and head over there. You have physical security, backup genny's with at least 2 weeks of diesel fuel, let's say an alternate and bountiful power source for limited needs, communication, food stores on site (cafeteria,) etc. Depending on where you were in the pecking order of same company or data-center you could easily pull this off. Not sure if you would be better off or not.... Depends on what kind of data center. Downtown STL? Maybe not. A "shack" in west Texas with a satellite dish? Bring it. I'd even possibly consider a central office. Find a larger rural one and you could get similar effects. Bell South held off people in New Orleans pretty well... Yeah that's my thinking too...Shut everything down except core gear, seal off most of the building and hold up. I wonder what they had to do to keep Lottie out of here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYP1IcPQ0lM |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:31:48 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: I've spent plenty of time in COs and telco wiring centers. It is not any fun. Loud and cold. And there ain't no food once the vending machine is empty. I ate two square meals a day for like two weeks. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:32:44 PM EDT
[#46]
You guys are all assuming that AT&T would have to physically turn stuff off. They could probably route through the traffic they want and send the rest of it to /dev/null. The internet is a gigantic collection of interconnected smaller networks. The key would be to isolate as many of those networks as possible. It would effectively make the thing people call the internet pretty useless in a hurry. Oh, a few out there that actually knows something about layers 3-6 of the OSI model might be creative, but who are you going to talk to? You would probably need to download some software to help with the routing and transmission protocols, but that might not be accessible. Everyone needs to download those protocols and put them in their BOB in case they have to hack the network. Would AT&T do this? I doubt it. If someone held a gun to the CEO's head he might order it, but I doubt it would happen in a huge way. Could the military do it? It would take them a long time and they would have to destroy key infrastructure because they just don't have enough people to finesse it.
So the short answer(s) would be - could AT&T really bend the internet over - yes. Would they - no. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:33:16 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What I'm getting at, is that in a rule of law country like ours, this just isn't feasible. Suppose the justice department tells AT&T to "shut it down" (they're not the only carrier, but that's besides the point). Well frankly, the answer they're going to give is "Fuck you, and the horse you rode in on", and off to court they go. That's the reality. It drags out for years. All the while, industrious minds find workarounds. In Egypt, they do nifty shit like threaten to shoot an engineer in the back of the head. It's a little different. It's just not happening here. It would require foreign military action, something the internet is well equipped to handle, anyway. Right, this is just Fantasy Island. Now here's an interesting question I'll wrap up this nerd fest with....Let's say a moderate to major SHTF situation happens nationwide and you have access to a secure data-center, would you re-locate you and your family there? Assuming you're an employee of said company with access-rights/controls. You can bring you guns, get a few close friends you trust, supplies and head over there. You have physical security, backup genny's with at least 2 weeks of diesel fuel, let's say an alternate and bountiful power source for limited needs, communication, food stores on site (cafeteria,) etc. Depending on where you were in the pecking order of same company or data-center you could easily pull this off. Not sure if you would be better off or not.... Depends on what kind of data center. Downtown STL? Maybe not. A "shack" in west Texas with a satellite dish? Bring it. I'd even possibly consider a central office. Find a larger rural one and you could get similar effects. Bell South held off people in New Orleans pretty well... Yeah that's my thinking too...Shut everything down except core gear, seal off most of the building and hold up. I've spent plenty of time in COs and telco wiring centers. It is not any fun. Loud and cold. And there ain't no food once the vending machine is empty. Pffft....You're missing out. My building has a customer DR center built in. 60 LCD's, XBOX 360, those little gourmet coffee machines and plenty of food. While the cafeteria food is nasty there's plenty of it, enough to get through a couple weeks for 20 or so people. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:34:31 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've spent plenty of time in COs and telco wiring centers. It is not any fun. Loud and cold. And there ain't no food once the vending machine is empty. I ate two square meals a day for like two weeks.
Vending food? You must have an iron stomach. 
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:34:57 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
http://www.telegeography.com/product-info/map_cable/images/cable_map_2010_large.png http://www.telegeography.com/product-info/map_cable/images/cable_map_2010_large.png Not gonna happen... ETA: Different higher res: http://eumvno.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/2010_0629_cablemap_telegeography.jpg Wow. Thanks for the image. I really had no idea there was that much cable on the sea floor between land masses like that. Just something you never think about, unless it is your line of work. |
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Posted: 1/28/2011 10:35:03 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
No, they can't I don't believe that. If the Internet were designed by America to be a military asset, I have to think that we would not have allowed it to be freely and openly used by other nations-enemy nations at that-without having the ability to use and exploit it in a manner consistent with our policy objectives and national security needs. Witness the Facebook/DARPA connection and the Google CEO with an office in the white house.
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