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Posted: 7/31/2005 11:17:39 AM EDT
[#1]
My thought that are if Moses wrote down what really happened at the beginning of time then no-one would be able to understand WTF he was talking about since they were rather un-educated, So a story was written instead that illistrates the point just as effectively and accurately.
YMMV SGatr15 |
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Posted: 7/31/2005 11:51:15 AM EDT
[#2]
It is the truth as is all in the Bible. It is God's Word.
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Posted: 7/31/2005 12:12:15 PM EDT
[#3]
Factual re-telling of actual events.
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Posted: 7/31/2005 1:24:53 PM EDT
[#4]
factual retelling of actual events that occured hundreds if not thousands of years before the storyteller penned it onto parchment.
A reasonable person could then say that some facts could have been lost, distorted, or just plain omitted in whole or in part. I keep hearing that the bible is a story, told by man, of actual events. Prove that these events actually took place. I've never seen remnants of the Ark, nor have I seen any other artifacts that actually prove creation, and any of the stories told in the bible, and I'm not referring to lost cities or ancient cities that were created by humans back thousands of years ago, but were recounted in revisions of the bible to suit the need of the storyteller, but I'll tell you what I have seen. I've seen dinosaur bones dating back 10's of millions of years ago. proven by established scientific methods. I've seen the wonders of the universe as proven through scientific intruments, observations, etc. I've seen images that prove that there are planets circling other stars out there. I know that there are billions of stars in our own galaxy and that there are billions of galaxies in the cosmos. Around those stars are surely worlds that are hospitable to whatever life has taken root on those planets. Surely the creationists don't think we are the only life in the universe and our little blue planet is the only place where life exists? |
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Posted: 7/31/2005 1:30:31 PM EDT
[#5]
SG, a story was written instead that illustrates the point just as effectively and accurately. I don't think so. If this were the case, then there would be ONE denomination, not the many as we know of it today. You know what I'd pay GOOOOD money to see? A rabbi, a priest, a minister, an imam, an athiest, a pastor, a mormon bishop, or prophet, a jehova's witness, an evolutionist, several scientists/astronomers and a satanist all sit down at a table and talk about who is right, wrong, where the story went wrong throught he many retellings, etc. No commercial interupptions except for potty breaks. A week long conference where political correctness was set aside with the only rules were that fisticufs and jihads were not allowed, and who all were moderated by a neutral person lest anarchy break out. :) |
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Posted: 7/31/2005 2:02:02 PM EDT
[#6]
It's a story told to simple minded people, when education was not at the level it is today. I find that evolution and the story of Genesis to not contradict each other, just that the time when Genesis was written man had not learned as much. The gist of the story is that God was always here, and He created all that is, including us. What is a "day" to someone that is Eternal? If He set in motion millions of years of evolution with a single spark, He still started it, knowing full well how it would play out and, untimately, end. The lesson of the Garden of Eden is certainly a parable, just like the many parables Jesus used. That story ties in with the other discussion of whether man is good or evil. As a person of faith I don't know why there seems to be so much confusion over it. It all makes perfect sense to me. |
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Posted: 7/31/2005 2:51:20 PM EDT
[#7]
This is the classic incredulous argument and it is just as simple minded as the metaphorical, symbolic or parabolic rationalizations that have been used over and over again by those who tend to cling to the most simple answers to the most complicated questions of our existance. The complex nature or our existence is out of ignorance or intentional stupidity or intellectual lazyness, inconcievable to most people. It is infinitely easier to say to ones self that some unfathonable Omni-Potent being is responsible for all of creation as outlined in some old book that says so instead of trying to unravel exactly how complicated things really are. It is much easier to believe that the world was created by a god six or eight thousand years ago as apposed life having started on this planet as a single celled ameoba hundreds of millions of years ago. It's a huge leap from a creature as complicated as an ameoba to a creature as complicated as a human. It is much easier for us to read a book and be told by other people that claim to be experts on the subject that our complicated existance can be easily explained. Indeed it is a Huge leap from the existance of a life form like an amoeba to a life form like an earthworm. |
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Posted: 7/31/2005 4:50:29 PM EDT
[#8]
Is it just me, or is this as arrogant as can be?? And is it just me, or does this imply that people that beleive Genesis to be actual / factual are also simple minded?? EVERY generation thinks THEY are the smartest ever. EVERY teenager thinks they are smarter than their parents. |
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Posted: 7/31/2005 8:07:17 PM EDT
[#9]
+1 to that..lol I've got a 16 year old daughter, an 18 year old son, a 17 year old step son, and a 15 year old step son, and they all don't believe that life back in the day when I was a teen, can possibly compare to life as they know it now... harhar |
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Posted: 8/1/2005 12:20:38 PM EDT
[#10]
I don't make a habit of saying that parts of the Bible aren't true. I happen to be of the opinion that God meant what He said, and I consider the Bible to be of higher authority than anything else on this planet. All scripture is given by the Inspiration of The Holy Spirit. If Jesus isn't a parable, then neither is Adam, for by Adam sin entered the world, and by Jesus sin's dominion was forever broken. Many seem to forget that Adam plays a major role in the doctrine of redemption, or at least that's what Scripture says. If Evolution was how God created life, then I will wait for Him to explain it to me later. For now, I will believe what He has told me in scripture above any other witness. |
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Posted: 8/1/2005 12:24:22 PM EDT
[#11]
I'm pretty sure several generations back they thought the world was flat. So yeah, I'm convinced I'm better educated than those folks. And yes, it implies that people who take every word of the Bible as literal fact may very well indeed be simple minded. If the shoe fits....... Mostly I think it's arrogant of you to presume to have the slightest idea how God managed it. If your God did things exactly word for word as told in Genesis, then you are going to have a very difficult time explaining away the EXTREME amount of incest necessary for that story to have worked. Draw the family tree for that one, see where you end up. So if you take it as literal fact, then God wants us to commit incest. I doubt you are going to be able to sell that one...... |
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Posted: 8/1/2005 12:27:38 PM EDT
[#12]
Same here. 
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Posted: 8/1/2005 1:45:19 PM EDT
[#13]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: Factual re-telling of actual events. ___________________________________________________________________ It's important to understand the Torah contains a great variet of material laws, narratives, history, folk tales, songs, proverbial sayings, poetry and myths and legends. By myth, we understand a tale involving human beings and divine pwoers, a tale which was meant and understood as having happened and which by its existence esplained or validated important aspects of existence. Thus, the Eden myth explained the origin of death and validated, for Christian tradition, the concept of humanity's inherent sinfulness, which itself is outside of Jewish eschatology. What usually passes for history is not an accurate scientific recording of events, but an interpretation of events--assuming even then that one knows what the event "really" was. Even the best of modern historians reflect upon current events in an interpretive manner. The Torah may be best said to mirror the collective memory of the Jews, and in the course of centuries this record became a source of truth for Jews. The origins of the Torah are one thing, its life through the centuries is another, and its ability to speak to us today is yet a third. All three aspects are distinct, yet joint, and has been understood the Jews as such. The Jewish Ed |
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Posted: 8/1/2005 5:20:10 PM EDT
[#14]
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/kids/2004/05/noahark.html 
- national geographic |
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Posted: 8/1/2005 5:28:16 PM EDT
[#15]
I find it amusing that many doubters grasp so desperately at opportunities to argue against the Bible and the Word. I, out of faith, and as a concept believe in the Bible. That being said, I also believe that literal interpretation of the Bible is often difficult. However, it is far easier to be a skeptic than to accept so much of the unknown on faith.
Blake |
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Posted: 8/1/2005 5:36:48 PM EDT
[#16]
The Jews for Jesus do not believe it is a book of myths, they believe it is the Word of God www.jfjonline.org/about/statementoffaith.htm |
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Posted: 8/1/2005 5:40:48 PM EDT
[#17]
Like the guy that walks into a forrest and finds one fake tree. He focuses on that fake tree and never sees the forrest again. Sgat1r5 |
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Posted: 8/1/2005 5:52:37 PM EDT
[#18]
If it means greater faith in the Faithful One, let me be the MOST simple minded (in the eyes of the faithless)  .
Not arrogance. Its called reading and comprehension. The Bible TELLS US how God managed it. We don't even have to have a particualrly vivid imagination. In fact, no imagination needed at all.
The incest thing is easily answered, and I will do so at the end of this post. But were I to take your position (its allegorical) I have a MUCH larger problem than incest. If Genesis is allegorical, and subject to the readers imagination / creative interpretation, then what about "Jesus saves" or "thou shalt not murder" or where God commands every man to labor to earn his own keep? If Genesis is allegorical, then all the rest of the Bible could be allegorical, and then suddenly the Bible means nothing, cuz it means whatever the reader wants it to mean. Forutnately, that's all rhetorical, as Genesis is actual / factual, and so is the rest of teh Bible (save those instances where the text itself, or parallel texts tell us its allegorical)
Now, back to the incest thing..... Here we have a textbook (albeit a junior high textbook  ) illustration of faulty interpretation.Just because something is cited in the Bible as having happened DOES NOT mean God endorses the behaviour. Scripture records Cain killed Able. Your interpretation would require that God endorsed killing Able. Of course, that is silly, and so is your position. DId incest happen? Sure. Did God like it? No. But here's the REAL question - Do you want God to strike people dead for every action they do that He doesn't like?? I REALLY don't think you do. Really. |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 1:00:14 PM EDT
[#19]
It's a story...even if not, would you be upset their real names were Moishe and Devorah?
The problem often recurrs when one becomes an absolute slave to the text; whereas the author of the test simply meant to describe an event. |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 1:07:31 PM EDT
[#20]
+1 Hi Gman |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 1:57:59 PM EDT
[#21]
My father and one of my closest friends are general surgeons. That means they mostly do E.R. work and see lot's o' naked people. Both have told me of superfluous nipples they find on what they called, if I remember correctly, the "mammary line". Maybe someone with more medical knowledge can correct the terminology.
Anyway, this is the line that mammals such as dogs and cats have nipples running down their belly. The fact that these nips will occasionally still appear on humans down that line is a clear indication that we share dna with other mammals. This is just one example to show how we are related to other mammals. Something that should not be the case if you believe in creationism, and that God simply made Adam and Eve. I understand that creationists are stout believers in the bible. As a Catholic I love the bible, yet I find no problem understanding that we came about through some long biological process and that we didn't just appear from a puff of smoke one day. I am completely willing to listen to any evidence a creationist could give me to prove their beliefs to be real. On the other hand, the few creationists I have met consider it a personal affront if you attempt to argue the theories with them, and any evidence contrary to their belief is just a trick from the devil. I guess it is just easier for some to have a holier than thou attitude while burring their head in the sand. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 6:12:55 PM EDT
[#22]
Hi Twisty. How's Old Guy? |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 6:17:21 PM EDT
[#23]
OR... ...it could also show a common designer who used the same design structure on all His creations. We had a house in Asheville that had octagonal arches in all the door ways of the house. In fact, they were in ALL the houses in the subdivision. All built by the same builder. Evolution would have us beleive that's proof the houses were made from the same tree. Intelligent design suggests all those houses were built by the same builder. Even a fourth grader could not mistake which is more probable. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 6:22:09 PM EDT
[#24]
Well, other than God, Christ and the apostle Paul all said that's NOT the way it happenned. I know - picky, picky. And if you are gonna allegorize Genesis, where does it stop? Is "Thou shalt not kill" allegory?? What about "Beleive on the Lord Jesus Chrsit and be saved"?? Is that allegory? Turning the text into allegory where not specifically indicated BY the text makes the reader supreme, as the entire Bible them becomes whatever the readers biases want it to be. At that point, you might just as well throw the Bible out. Too many people I've met, taht's EXACTLY what they want. And you position lets them do it. |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 2:40:07 AM EDT
[#25]
Factual, literal truth.
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Posted: 8/9/2005 2:52:06 AM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 8/9/2005 8:01:51 AM EDT
[#27]
Jesus believed it.... so do I.
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Posted: 8/9/2005 9:04:12 AM EDT
[#28]
I am always amused when I hear people act as if people in the past are automatically less educated than ourselves. Don't forget the Prophets were in DIRECT CONTACT with the Creator, and I can't imagine a better teacher.
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Posted: 8/9/2005 11:07:08 AM EDT
[#29]
I believe God did it as described but that isnt the main point to get from the story. |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 11:12:07 AM EDT
[#30]
SO TRUE!!!!!!! I've noticed that. Funny, really. While much of America is a-muse-d playing X-box , wasting hundreds if not thousands of hours, the "ancients" were employed reading and studying. And Americans today consider themselves so intellectually superior.  |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 11:16:52 AM EDT
[#31]
I agree. I also add that even for the unbelievers to consider that some of the most intelligent people to EVER walk this earth were prehistoric. If one beleives in the evolutionary explanation of mans progress then I think its the pinnacle of ignorance to think those in the past are less intelligent. They had to create a language that did not exist, they had to create shelters, they had to farm the land and create weapons. Its take a mighty powerfull thought process to come up with some of the things that allegedly got us this far. Take the Atatl or bow and arrow. Whoever designed it was a true missile tech. Knowledge that is still in use today. To figure how to make a shaft fly straight and true by use of stabilizing fins and balancing the wieght, length and strenght of the shaft. That had to take some incredible intellectual processes. |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 11:20:50 AM EDT
[#32]
noone says they weren't intelligent, as you say they had to have had a few geniuses runnning about to come up with things like the wheel and bows and arrows. It is not arrogant for me to say I know more about nuclear engineering than a person from the 11th century. Its not even arrogant to say I know more about proper medical procedures than most doctors from the 11th century. Its a simple statement of fact, but that is education and not innate intelligence. I know more about relativity than Isaac Newton did, I'm sure not as smart as old Isaac though. |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 11:31:01 AM EDT
[#33]
its a bit of a paradox, wrapped up in a conundrum. On the one hand, cognitive ability has evolved (increased / improved) over time , so it makes sense our forebears were less intelligence. On the other hand, our forebears has to figger out really important stuff, like survival of the species, language, and wiping with toilet paper, and not your hand. We just gotta figger out stuff like X-box and how to get those childproof caps off the aspirin bottle. Whch kinda suggests intelligence is devolving. Depends who ya talk to, I guess. |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 11:43:05 AM EDT
[#34]
for the story to be passed down so it could be written in the book of Genesis, then Adam had to know the story himself, did he? Then it had to be passed on to his children, their children etc via word of mouth and finally written down. I believe it's just allegorical.
Note he made light twice, that doesnt make any sense Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good. Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 11:49:03 AM EDT
[#35]
I shouldnt have used the term ignorance and was getting ready to edit it out then I saw this post. |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 11:49:40 AM EDT
[#36]
= stars Essentially, REFLECTIVE bodies, whereas the first light was illuminative. |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 11:51:41 AM EDT
[#37]
aah just ignore me then :) |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 11:51:44 AM EDT
[#38]
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. "The greater light", singular, obviously the Sun and "he made the stars also which means in addition to the sun and the lesser light which probably refers to the moon |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 11:57:24 AM EDT
[#39]
Nah, I appreciate your insight. |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 12:01:12 PM EDT
[#40]
Yes. SO? |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 12:09:43 PM EDT
[#41]
So, supports my theory he made lights twice, doesn't make any sense. Maybe he screwed it up the first time, who knows. Bad allegorical descrioption of the story of Adam and Eve if you ask me. |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 12:14:00 PM EDT
[#42]
Wait, wait. You're just about to go over a cliff you can't return from. Let me see if I get this straight. You believe that ONLY our sun generates it's own light, and all the stars in sky are reflecting that? |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 12:35:15 PM EDT
[#43]
I feel a "we've never been there so only God could know if those are reflective bodies or not" coming on 
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Posted: 8/9/2005 1:13:28 PM EDT
[#44]
No, that's not what I said. |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 1:25:55 PM EDT
[#45]
actually you did, perhaps you mispoke though
from that I got that you thought that the "lights" (in red) were stars and were essentially reflective while the first light (here I assume you mean the greater light) was illuminative |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 1:31:59 PM EDT
[#46]
God saying "Let there be light" would likely means "Let there be heavenly body(ies) that generate light." God saying "Let there be lights" could possibly mean reflective stars. But who knows? If that's the biggest thing someone has a hangup for not believing God, I'd say "Fine, OK, whatever, just trust Jesus Christ for your eternal destiny, and live for him." Translation: "Who cares? Trust God." |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 1:45:02 PM EDT
[#47]
Yeah, that's exactly what you said. Stars are not reflective bodies. They are holes punched in the giant black bedsheet God has placed over Earth 
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Posted: 8/9/2005 2:00:28 PM EDT
[#48]
God literally created Adam and Eve.
Need proof? Look in the mirror. Mankind's existance is the result of divine intervention. How would Moses know all about this? He spoke with God. How do you find a better authority than that? |
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