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Posted: 1/9/2006 3:13:27 PM EDT
TACTICAL 3 GUN MATCHES AT BLACK CREEK WILL BE HELD ON THE LAST SATURDAY OF THE MONTH.

2006:

JANUARY 28TH

FEBRUARY 25TH

MARCH 25TH

APRIL 29TH

MAY 27TH

JUNE 24TH

JULY 29TH

AUGUST 26TH

SEPTEMBER 30TH

OCTOBER 28TH

NOVEMBER 25TH

DECEMBER 30TH

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 4:31:55 PM EDT
Hows about some more details, like directions, equipment requirements and how much physical stuff going on. Too damn old to go running in the woods. Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 4:58:15 PM EDT
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=24&t=219574

Refer to there to find the general consensus on black creek
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 5:21:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fiend:
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=24&t=219574

Refer to there to find the general consensus on black creek



The IDPA and 3 gun matches are the lone exception, IMO. Management isn't around much, and pretty much lets Anton and Jim (IDPA), and Joe and Joe (3gun) do their thing.

Here's the link to the IDPA. It's not too up to date, but the directions should be good. They shoot second Sat's.

There is a new website for the 3 gun, can't find right now. I'll find it later and update this unless someone beats me to it.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 5:46:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 5:50:40 AM EDT by BlackScot]
Here's the 3-gun web site:

Black Creek 3-Gun

I'm told the 3-gun is now run entirely seperate from the IDPA at Black Creek. I've heard good things about the 3-gun but haven't yet gone. The timing isn't the best for me since I usually help run the Cavalier IDPA the following day of each month.

Somehow these guys have convinced the (otheriwse very difficult) range managment to give them a fairly free hand in running what sounds like a helluva match. Maybe at some point this year I'll manage to arrange a full weekend of shooting.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:14:09 AM EDT
Thanks for catching my slack, Randy.

The 3 gun is fun and challenging. They recently got a lot more steel targets (fun to shoot, joy to score).

They believe in challenging you (as much as possible given the range). Some run and gun, but some awkward shooting positions and they've built a tunnel or two that you've had to negotiate.

Currently, they don't allow .308. 7.62x39, 5.56 and 5.45 are all good to go.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:48:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kdmoore:
Currently, they don't allow .308



According to the web site, they are now including .308 as part of their "he/she man" division.

I've known Joe Fallis for over 10 years since when we used to shoot Allen Jackson's IPSC matches at Black Creek back in the stone age. He's a good man, and I expect these matches to be every bit up to the good reports I've received. Got to get to one!

(I don't know about that "he/she" business though....do I need to start getting injections for this thing? )
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 12:08:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BlackScot:

Originally Posted By kdmoore:
Currently, they don't allow .308



According to the web site, they are now including .308 as part of their "he/she man" division.

I've known Joe Fallis for over 10 years since when we used to shoot Allen Jackson's IPSC matches at Black Creek back in the stone age. He's a good man, and I expect these matches to be every bit up to the good reports I've received. Got to get to one!

(I don't know about that "he/she" business though....do I need to start getting injections for this thing? )



I agree 100% Joe is a great guy and will have a good/safe match. Ive shot with Joe and Allen at Black Creek and Blackwater IPSC matches both are hard working straight shooting guys.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 3:02:43 PM EDT
That really sounds like fun. I'm going to try to get out there (from across the state) a few times this year.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 7:54:55 PM EDT
Catching my slack 2 times in a row.

.308 used to be out, they were hoping KC would allow it. Must have happened recently (I didn't shoot the Dec match.

Doesn't matter, I don't want to be a "he/she man" anyways
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:30:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:20:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Templar:
I talked Joe F. into the .308.



Ah, now I see.....one good man helping another.

"Would you please pass the evil, thank you ever so much."


Originally Posted By Templar:
Now I just have to get my ass out there to make it worth while.



Might take me a couple months yet, but hopefully may run into you there eventually.

(BTW - hope the new work is going well buddy.)
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 1:53:41 PM EDT
You have to pay anything if you just go watch?
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 5:02:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By UrbancommandoX:
You have to pay anything if you just go watch?

No, and if you want to reset/patch targets you are welcome to help. Its a great way to get a feel for how the scoring works and how everyone is doing.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 12:55:26 PM EDT
Do you still have slots open for the Jan. match? If so, could you IM me the details, ie: cost, equipment needed, slots available. Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:17:07 PM EDT
koolaid, hope you can make it. It's a lot of fun, and they work hard to come up with interesting shooting challenges.

There are likely slots left, but you need to get in touch with Joe Fallis in order to preregister. I'd guess his email is on the link above. IIRC its something like binazone with yahoo. Gives him a good idea of turnout. I think he sends the COF to you when you contact him.

Hope you make it. I'll be the one with the AR15 ..... :)

Seriously, my AR has a carbon fiber tube that is pretty distinctive, come by and introduce yourself if your there. That goes to anyone on the board. I like putting names with faces.

I'll answer my best guess here in case others wonder. Check the website as that would supercede these best guesses I'm giving.


Pricing is $15 iirc.

Slots available? If you mean is there room, then Joe can tell you, if you mean time to start, we split to 2 or 3 squads and start simultaneously. Shooting should end ~2pm but depends on number of shooters/squads and weather, stage design, help scoring/pasting/resetting etc.


Equipment
Mandatory:
Rifle with couple of mags (3 is safe, more is better)
Shotgun and someway to carry shells - sidesaddle, bandoleer, etc
Pistol + holster with good retention + mag holders with good retention + 3 mags (more is better)
Eye/ear protection


Optional gear
kneepads and gloves
slings
tac vest
optics on rifle/shotgun
waterproof boots if wet
wagon or ?? to haul stuff between stages
snack/drinks
anything else you normally shoot with (I used to haul a few emergency tools, now it's pretty much a can of clp :) )
mag holster for rifle mags


Ammo for above differs match to match. If I was going without a COF (and I haven't seen this months yet) I'd feel like 300 rd rifle (fmj is good), 100 pistol, 100 shotsell (7.5 max size) and 20 slugs would would cover it 2X. Slugs aren't always required, but are hard to borrow if they are.

BTW,

Joe Fallis is Match director, Joe Slusher helps a lot and does the internet stuff, and there are a handful of regulars that help set up, work, teardown. And I work on doing as little as I can get by with!


Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:20:42 PM EDT
Went out to the site after I hit submit.

Courses are posted, ( haven't done a round count).

Better info is there (i.e. shot shells no larger than 6, not 7.5 as I just posted). Fallis is at comcast.net not yahoo.

REAL answers to all your questions.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 12:53:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kdmoore:
Went out to the site after I hit submit.

Courses are posted, ( haven't done a round count).

Better info is there (i.e. shot shells no larger than 6, not 7.5 as I just posted). Fallis is at comcast.net not yahoo.

REAL answers to all your questions.

Hope to be there. Will know by Fri. if I can or not, (work). If so, i'll be the one with a M-4gery w/ aimpoint and a rail, Winny 1300, and a Glock 35. If not there, I will definatly be at Cavalier the next day.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:08:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By koolaid:
I will definatly be at Cavalier the next day.



Hope to see you at the shotgun side match.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:21:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BlackScot:

Originally Posted By koolaid:
I will definatly be at Cavalier the next day.



Hope to see you at the shotgun side match.

Thats the plan
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:22:44 AM EDT
I'm new to the site, but alot of you know me (Margarets G's Husband) Richard. I shoot out at Dominon on Monday nights, and am thinking about coming out on Saturday to see how the Match works(dont have a shotgun),and continplate about doing one in the future.Talk to you guys later.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 5:39:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RomakIII:
......dont have a shotgun.......





We'll have to fix that!
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 11:40:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 3:15:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Templar:
One thing about these matches and the ones I have at Cavalier.......if you don't have the gear, you'll get people offering it to you.

If you can make the IDPA match at Cavalier on Sunday, we're having a shotgun side match and you're welcome to borrow my Remington 870.



+1!!! The action-shotgun stuff is definately the most
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 5:51:57 AM EDT
I shot in november and loved it. I shot my 10inch mp5 clone and found it worked fine for what I was doing but it needed a new extractor spring or I could outshoot it. Replaced that and about 300rounds later with and without the suppressor it shoots great. That 10inch barrel can chuck a plate too. Only have 3 mags for it so hope that works. Everything ran smoothly and quickly last time. I was at the end of the list on the biggest squad and still made it out of there by 3. Got a tactical vest last time but no mag holders yet, oh well it will wait another month for that.

I might of missed this but any word on slug count?


RomakIII- Got a mossburg I am trying to offload, if you shoot and like shooting the shotgun match come see me I can set you up. I have a lot of random stuff on it and I am not asking a lot for it.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 8:33:02 AM EDT
The "Joes" run a great match. Shot a couple last year and looking forward to this year. Glad to see .308 allowed. Have to miss this one unfortunately as we have to work the new Fredericksburg Gun Show.
Will see you at the next one!
Steve
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 9:36:51 AM EDT
I plan on making this one as well. It will be my first 3-Gun match and I'm sure I don't have everything I need but I'll figure it out as I go ;-) I can attest to the fact that its a great bunch running that match and the side matches at Cavalier. I can't tell you how many times people have offered to let me borrow their guns so I can play.

Link Posted: 1/25/2006 11:48:16 AM EDT
Hope they start importing saigas soon. I would really like to pick one up for 3 gun. The damn things are cheap too.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 2:48:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KogaShuko:
Hope they start importing saigas soon........cheap too.



They get you on the mags.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:20:41 AM EDT
COF looks too sweet this month.

Templar, you been a stranger since you started the sizemic testing job, you should start the 3 gun it is a lot of fun.

Working on a saiga as we speak and also sold 2 guns to pick up a PS90. I dont know how well ammo availability is going to be until wolf starts producing but it is bound to shoot good in this type of match.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 6:40:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KogaShuko:
Hope they start importing saigas soon. I would really like to pick one up for 3 gun. The damn things are cheap too.



Looks like the new pricing will be around $400.

You'll be joining a growing movement! The saiga is a very fun and addicting shotgun. But I'm going to chime in to let you know the issues you'll face.

As BS said, the mags are a bit scarce right now, but .... that's all about to get better real soon. There are a couple of individuals (one here in VA) working on producing domestic mags. One is a 10 round polymer, the other is a metal mag (either 8 or 10 rounds, I don't remember). And pricing appears to be much lower than the factory mags.

Other Saiga issues
1. Mag changes take practice. Much worse than an AK rifle varient.
2. I don't like the sight systems on any of them.
3. There are courses where the Saiga can dominate, courses where it's on nuetral ground, and courses where it's at a disadvantage.
4. Saiga/mag fed shotty = open class.

And there is a list of mods that most owners will do. Pistol grip conversion, mag collection, bbl/choke mods. Your likely to have the same money into it when you get it the way you like it. But you can do that in stages.

I'm not trying to talk you out of this, just make sure you are aware of what the path holds. There is a very friendly group of owners in the Richmond area. We've shared gear before (mags AND shotguns). If you get one soon, and want to shoot it at bc, you are welcome to my stuff :) So don't wait to collect mags to come out and shoot. In fact, if you want to try a Saiga out before you decide to buy, you can shoot mine.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 7:49:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kdmoore:
The saiga is a very fun and addicting shotgun.



I watched Templar dump an entire 8-round mag OF SLUGS from his Saiga as fast as he could pull the trigger.....one of the wildest shooting images I've yet to behold.

Shortly thereafter tried the same myself ,but using only birdshot. Basically just sprayed an IDPA target into dust.

Definitely has a distinct appeal.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 9:22:57 AM EDT
Here's one of our Finnish counter parts, tho I doubt he's dumping slugs.

Mag dump
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 8:05:58 AM EDT
Thats great. Need 1 now. Anyonw who wants my benelli I will sell it to them on the spot tomorrow.


In the mean time, is there a guest rifle or anything like that this month? Didnt see that in the reading but sometimes I miss stuff (my moto for classes it isnt a lot of reading if you dont do it.) Also, I am going to try and get video this time. I have a bunch of video that Iwill turn into something some day.

Link Posted: 1/27/2006 8:17:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KogaShuko:
In the mean time, is there a guest rifle or anything like that this month?



I just read that RAA should have the firearms by the 31rst. I'd guess mags will be there too, but they do not import full cap mags (I believe an agreement with the ATF).

Yes. It will shoot 5.56 and you'll need to bring some to feed it (Last time I shot a "guest firearm" there Joe F. graciously provided the fodder. It was an AK variant with a folding stock and 7.63x39, likely the reason that he provided ammo).

The COF are posted, relatively low round count and no slugs. I think I'll try traveling light this time.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 8:52:27 AM EDT
Actually I guess I should rephrase. Is the guest firearm required in the course of fire like the AK last time?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 12:39:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KogaShuko:
Actually I guess I should rephrase. Is the guest firearm required in the course of fire like the AK last time?



Yes, very similar. The firearm is provided for us and the only thing published is that it runs on 5.56/.223

The difference is that you'll load a mag from your own supply of ammo prior to shooting the stage.

I spoke with Joe during lunch today. We have a very full set of shooters for tommorrow, guess everyone's like me ... itchin to get the guns warmed up again!!! And I don't think I would have ever guessed a 60 degree day in Jan for shooting.

Link Posted: 1/27/2006 1:21:47 PM EDT
OK, now for the stupid question, does this mean I will not be using my rifle or shotgun? Will I be using one provided to me by some one else? I'm new to the 3 gun format at BC, only been shooting IDPA w/ sidematches at Cavalier.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 2:02:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By koolaid:
OK, now for the stupid question, does this mean I will not be using my rifle or shotgun? Will I be using one provided to me by some one else? I'm new to the 3 gun format at BC, only been shooting IDPA w/ sidematches at Cavalier.



Ohhh, now I understand. Not a stupid question at all, I just wasn't thinking when I "explained" this.

Guest firearm will only be used for part of one stage. This is all in the COF posted on that site for a better explanation.

Here's how it will work. Sometime prior to shooting, you'll load a mag for the guest firearm. Just prior to shooting, it will be placed in the middle of the stage and you'll use it to complete part of the course of fire. You'll use your rifle on the early part of the stage, and complete the stage with the guest firearm. When your done, you clear all of your weapons and leave the guest firearm for the next shooter to prep up.

BTW, I've seen this done numerous other ways and it adds a nice touch of diversity.

"Rescue your friend" stages where you empty your firearm and use your friends to complete the stage. Can be rifle, shotgun, revolver... at a state match we had to use a luger with a 349 pound trigger pull

"Hey, I found a gun" format where you come upon a firearm and mags. You need to get it ready to roll and then .... roll. Happened lately with a folded stock AK. Full mag was hid amongst some empties. Shot it with stock folded, point shooting at targets 1 yard away.

Start with the guest firearm in your possession. At a shotgun match we were given a .22 revolver with rat shot. Had to break some clays. Pretty cool, and I guess the .22 was techically a shotgun that day

I dig this stuff, and I don't mind answering questions. But you'll learn more from the posted stage descriptions than from me. Some can be hard to understand if you haven't been to the range or done much of this, but we can work those questions out here.

It's less than 16 hours heheheheh
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 2:47:22 PM EDT
Now for part 2, do I need to carry an assortment of ammo and mags, or is that provided for the guest firearm? example, I'm shooting an AR15, do I carry mags and ammo for an AK47?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 2:49:10 PM EDT
BTW I'll be there tomorrow. Red f150 VA tags NATO 556. See ya'll there!
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:32:16 PM EDT
Mags provided for the firearm. Just need extra ammo. Most folks will have the ammo anyway, but anyone shooting other calibers just need to remember to throw some .223 ammo in the box.

Look forward to meeting you tomorrow. I use a green wagon to haul gear around and be one of the guys with a timer.

Get there early enough and my sidearm will be a hitachi cordless drill. Later on I'll switch to a Para P-16
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:17:29 PM EDT
Well the day is donehad It was nice to meet everyone that shoots 3-gun and a few of the people I know from monday night.Thanks to Matt for the use of a shotgun.Now I've got to talk my wife(Margaret) into letting me get one (help from the you guys that know her, can talk it uphe, and out of place.Looking forward to the next one.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:48:26 PM EDT
Yeh had a lot of fun myself today. Glad you liked shooting the shotgun.

I got home watched the video, ate, and began throwing it together real fast to upload. Will have it up soon since it is uploading now. At one point you can slightly hear me calling the target a few choice words when the 115grn 9mm bounce off of them from the handgun. Didnt have that issue with my SBR though.

Will be interesting to see how the scores work out. Only one reload with the shotgun required so saiga and normal were about even. Was cool to see a major and minor power factor difference but not handycap.

Keep us posted on the bolt gun match. Will it require a higher velocity load on the hostage targets?
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:51:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:05:54 PM EDT
Nice Video Matt. Thanks for sharing. The match was great fun today. Looks like another weekend day I'll have to steal from the wife each month ;-)

Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:13:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:52:53 PM EDT
The majority of the people were done by 3. No one was rushed and everyone seemed to have fun.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 4:22:40 PM EDT
There were three teams of 12 each if I recall correctly. We got off to a slightly late start but I think just about everyone was finished up shortly after 3:00. There were a number of people shooting He-Man which was new for this range. I may try it myself. Beautiful weather for a match.

All in all it was a great day.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 5:06:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 5:15:08 PM EDT by kdmoore]
Tim, I'd say it went from 10:30 to 3:30. I was in the tailing group, and we'd have finished much earlier if that durn AK hadn't started to malfunction.

Romak, this is pathetic! If anyone has a wife that will support a firearm purchase you do!

Fun time all, can't wait till next time.

I'm wondering how the bolt guns will fare, and what evening out factor should be. I've got no bolt gun (yet) so I'll shoot it "regular". I'm thinking that they'll either take a fraction of the time scored (1/3?) or maybe allow the bolt gun shooters to hit each target 1 time where the semis need 3 or 4?

Gotta admit, I like the diversity the Joe's throw at you.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 5:13:52 PM EDT
Just watched your video, Excellent work Matt!
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