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Posted: 12/6/2023 6:07:25 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Thanks! What's the overall process for starting to develop a load? Once you know you want a load for a specific application, where do you start? By choosing the bullet? And then deciding on the velocity you want? Or do you choose the powder you want for your barrel length and then figure out the velocity? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Originally Posted By Molon: Incorrect. SAAMI 223 Remington calls for velocities from a 24" barrel. As I posted in my previous post on the Hornady 53 grain V-MAX ammunition, this factory load had a velocity of 3285 FPS from a 20" Colt barrel. You're not going to find much in the way of reputable load data for 16" barrels. You use the load data from a reputable manual to find an accurate load in your 16" barrel. The 53 grain V-MAX is a superb bullet for accuracy/precision. It was specifically designed for a 223 Remington chamber, but still does extremely well from a 223 Wylde and 5.56 chambers. The Hornady factory loaded ammunition with this bullet uses a non-canister-grade "Superformance" powder that you won't be able to purchase. For accurate/precise loads with this bullet you should look at some of the faster burning (relatively speaking) short-cut extruded powders. The 10-shot group pictured below was fired from one of my precision AR-15s using a hand-load topped with the 53 grain V-MAX. The group has an extreme spread of 0.555". https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/krieger_with_53_vmax_01-3050363.jpg ..... Thanks! What's the overall process for starting to develop a load? Once you know you want a load for a specific application, where do you start? By choosing the bullet? And then deciding on the velocity you want? Or do you choose the powder you want for your barrel length and then figure out the velocity? Molon's Accuracy Node Detection Technique |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 6:49:01 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryWow. That was quite a read. It made perfect sense to me. I followed all the math and could run all the calculations. It reminds me a bit of the way we used to score minefields laid by a carrier air wing. Nicely done. You did a great job putting the information together and presenting it. Thanks for taking the time to do all that for our benefit. I'll be using whatever method dryflash teaches me next week when I get started but I learned a lot from you. Thanks. |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 6:51:37 PM EDT
[#3]
Reading up on Creighton Audette's method now.
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Posted: 12/6/2023 6:57:32 PM EDT
[#4]
I'm already starting to see if I can shuffle around my firearms budget so I can scrape together enough to get started reloading around the first of the year ... and looking around the basement for a good spot for a reloading bench.
And all because I wondered if I could reload .223 brass for 5.56. This snow-balled fast.  Thanks! |
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Posted: 12/7/2023 1:00:09 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Wow. That was quite a read. It made perfect sense to me. I followed all the math and could run all the calculations. It reminds me a bit of the way we used to score minefields laid by a carrier air wing. Nicely done. You did a great job putting the information together and presenting it. Thanks for taking the time to do all that for our benefit. I'll be using whatever method dryflash teaches me next week when I get started but I learned a lot from you. Thanks. Molon is who you listen to when you want to learn the fine art of accuracy. The old saying "you have to learn to walk before you run" comes to mind here. I'll get you walking. |
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Posted: 12/7/2023 1:01:34 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: I'm already starting to see if I can shuffle around my firearms budget so I can scrape together enough to get started reloading around the first of the year ... and looking around the basement for a good spot for a reloading bench. And all because I wondered if I could reload .223 brass for 5.56. This snow-balled fast. Thanks! We like to spend your money. 
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Posted: 12/7/2023 5:14:25 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: I will get you started with the basics. Molon is who you listen to when you want to learn the fine art of accuracy. The old saying "you have to learn to walk before you run" comes to mind here. I'll get you walking. Sounds good to me! |
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Posted: 12/7/2023 8:23:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Currently]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Thanks! Lot's to think about. I won't be chasing velocity. To me, velocity is a means, not an end. Accuracy, reliability, and consistency are what I'm after. Whatever velocity gets those is the velocity I need. Whether it's the fastest or not doesn't matter to me. This is the main criteria I use when someone asks me to teach them reloading. I innocuously ask several questions why they want to reload not giving them any hint why I ask. The ones that say they are after power are immediately dismissed as I have found out even if they change their story, their mindset doesn’t change. The ones that say they want to save money laugh when I tell them it will never happen, they will just shoot more for the same amount if not more money. I have no problem getting them started. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2023 12:07:08 PM EDT
[#9]
Some good old info here- https://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/
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Posted: 12/7/2023 12:22:48 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 243winxb: Some good old info here- https://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/ Thanks for posting.
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Posted: 12/7/2023 1:08:38 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Currently: This is the main criteria I use when someone asks me to teach them reloading. I innocuously ask several questions why they want to reload not giving them any hint why I ask. The ones that say they are after power are immediately dismissed as I have found out even if they change their story, their mindset doesn’t change. The ones that say they want to save money laugh when I tell them it will never happen, they will just shoot more for the same amount if not more money. I have no problem getting them started. I completely understand that. Helping someone learn something for the wrong reasons isn't terribly gratifying. |
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Posted: 12/7/2023 1:09:01 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 243winxb: Some good old info here- https://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/ Cool! Another reading assignment. Thanks! 
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Posted: 12/7/2023 1:10:49 PM EDT
[#13]
I completed Lesson 0: Cleaning Brass the Old-School Way.
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Posted: 12/7/2023 2:40:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dryflash3]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: I completed Lesson 0: Cleaning Brass the Old-School Way. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/582146/Lesson_0-3052236.jpg  Normally ammo goes home in a cardboard box. Remember the goal is 50 rounds loaded. The extra cases are to allow for mistakes if a case gets ruined during reloading. Last guy I taught thought sizing was a speed assignment, and nicked the edge of the case mouth on the sizing die, ruining the case. 48 of 100 ruined. Was a shame, he had new Norma cases (high quality), and I learned something to watch for. All of my handloads have the following criteria in importance; Safety, function, accuracy, and power last. Semi auto rifle, function is important, but easy to do. Accuracy takes a little more care. That said I find almost max loads (depending on cartridge 1.0 to .5 grs below max listed. Others max listed is best. Why we test in our guns.) to fit these needs very well. |
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Posted: 12/7/2023 3:17:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dryflash3]
[#15]
I got a homework assignment for you. Review these links to have a better understanding of what reloading tools are needed.
Remember these "kits" are put together to a price point. None provide a way to trim, that's extra and something that's need to reload 223. One of those things a novice will discover later. 1. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1013004049?pid=121744 First up is a Lee kit. Quality just good enough, but possible to make good ammo on. Low end of market. 2. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1023389781?pid=345426 RCBS, good quality. The Rockchucker press all other single stages are compared to. Some required tools lacking, caliper, bullet puller. Manual scale, what I trust and use. Lube pad is from the 70's, I don't recommend. I will show you the joys of spray on case lube. 3. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1022387856?pid=595089 A more complete RCBS "kit", but without Rockchucker press. Spray lube is good, Digital scale not so much. 4. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012998011?pid=749997 Hornady make quality tools also. I just have no experience with this kit. I do know that spray case lube is *&## not good, as well as the cheap digital scale. And I don't like the LNL bushing you have to buy for every die set. Extra $20 or so. Just a short overview, we have threads discussing each piece of equipment, you will get my take on what to get. From this list, I think #2 is the best. What you are going to see in your visit is a variety of tools. I have several presses, powder measures, scales, trimmers. That what takes a day to show you all that.  How I have my bench set up. RCBS Scale at eye level. No parallax error like you would get if scale placed on table top and looking down at it. RCBS Powder trickler mounted next to scale, Redding powder measure near scale for good work flow.  RCBS Rockchucker. Here priming previously sized, tumbled, trimmed, and deburred 350 Legend cases and placing primed cases into loading block, ready for powder drop. Hornady die set, Win SR primers. No powder out as not there yet. eta, the blue presses covered up in the background are Dillons. Top of pic. I will show you progressive presses, but that's far into your future if you ever get there. I have several trimming options to show you. |
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Posted: 12/7/2023 3:25:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: Wow, you are my first student to have plastic cartridge boxes. Normally ammo goes home in a cardboard box. Remember the goal is 50 rounds loaded. The extra cases are to allow for mistakes if a case gets ruined during reloading. Last guy I taught thought sizing was a speed assignment, and nicked the edge of the case mouth on the sizing die, ruining the case. 48 of 100 ruined. Was a shame, he had new Norma cases (high quality), and I learned something to watch for. All of my handloads have the following criteria in importance; Safety, function, accuracy, and power last. Semi auto rifle, function is important, but easy to do. Accuracy takes a little more care. That said I find almost max loads (depending on cartridge 1.0 to .5 grs below max listed. Others max listed is best. Why we test in our guns.) to fit these needs very well. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: Wow, you are my first student to have plastic cartridge boxes. Normally ammo goes home in a cardboard box. Remember the goal is 50 rounds loaded. The extra cases are to allow for mistakes if a case gets ruined during reloading. Last guy I taught thought sizing was a speed assignment, and nicked the edge of the case mouth on the sizing die, ruining the case. 48 of 100 ruined. Was a shame, he had new Norma cases (high quality), and I learned something to watch for. All of my handloads have the following criteria in importance; Safety, function, accuracy, and power last. Semi auto rifle, function is important, but easy to do. Accuracy takes a little more care. That said I find almost max loads (depending on cartridge 1.0 to .5 grs below max listed. Others max listed is best. Why we test in our guns.) to fit these needs very well. Thanks. I like to be organized and there are four good LGS's in the nearest town. One of them has a pretty big reloading section. Dozens of die sets, presses, bullets, primers, and on and on. I'm thinking these boxes will come in handy when I've learned enough to start developing my own loads and need to test them at the range. So I may as well get started right. I like everything you wrote. It all aligns perfectly with my personal philosophy about taking care of stuff and making it last as long as possible. If I don't get 300,000 miles out of a car or 500,000 miles out of a truck, I consider it a failure on my part. I have a generator I paid $200 bucks for at an Eagle Hardware (remember them) in the 1990s. It starts on one pull half the time and two the rest of the time. If I don't have to load to max pressure to get the performance I need, that's a win as far as I'm concerned. Safety, function, accuracy, and power last. Roger that. 100%. It seems to me that if I'm using quality components, the right bullet and load for the job, and I'm loading properly, I shouldn't need maximum velocity to get the job done. I know there are all sorts of ways to geek out on reloading to improve performance beyond simply adding more powder. I also know I don't know what those ways are. But I'm hoping to learn. Because, IMO, any engineer worth their salt prefers an elegant and balanced solution to an unbalanced brute-force solution.
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Posted: 12/7/2023 3:28:59 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3:Last guy I taught thought sizing was a speed assignment, and nicked the edge of the case mouth on the sizing die, ruining the case. 48 of 100 ruined. Yikes. I don't know how hard that is to spot but wouldn't a quick visual inspection of the case mouth after sizing be a good quality check to make? It's hard for me to imagine running that many of something through a machine like that without examining the first one with very close scrutiny. Have no fear, though. I'm perfectly capable of making even the worst sort of rookie mistakes myself. Just maybe not that one. |
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Posted: 12/7/2023 3:50:32 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: I got a homework assignment for you. Review these links to have a better understanding of what reloading tools are needed. Remember these "kits" are put together to a price point. None provide a way to trim, that's extra and something that's need to reload 223. One of those things a novice will discover later. 1. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1013004049?pid=121744 First up is a Lee kit. Quality just good enough, but possible to make good ammo on. Low end of market. 2. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1023389781?pid=345426 RCBS, good quality. The Rockchucker press all other single stages are compared to. Some required tools lacking, caliper, bullet puller. Manual scale, what I trust and use. Lube pad is from the 70's, I don't recommend. I will show you the joys of spray on case lube. 3. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1022387856?pid=595089 A more complete RCBS "kit", but without Rockchucker press. Spray lube is good, Digital scale not so much. 4. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012998011?pid=749997 Hornady make quality tools also. I just have no experience with this kit. I do know that spray case lube is *&## not good, as well as the cheap digital scale. And I don't like the LNL bushing you have to buy for every die set. Extra $20 or so. Just a short overview, we have threads discussing each piece of equipment, you will get my take on what to get. From this list, I think #2 is the best. What you are going to see in your visit is a variety of tools. I have several presses, powder measures, scales, trimmers. That what takes a day to show you all that. https://i.imgur.com/Z04X9LFl.jpg How I have my bench set up. RCBS Scale at eye level. No parallax error like you would get if scale placed on table top and looking down at it. RCBS Powder trickler mounted next to scale, Redding powder measure near scale for good work flow. https://i.imgur.com/Y60PR0Zl.jpg RCBS Rockchucker. Here priming previously sized, tumbled, trimmed, and deburred 350 Legend cases and placing primed cases into loading block, ready for powder drop. Hornady die set, Win SR primers. No powder out as not there yet. eta, the blue presses covered up in the background are Dillons. Top of pic. I will show you progressive presses, but that's far into your future if you ever get there. I have several trimming options to show you. Thanks! Very helpful. Based on what I've read over the past year, the RCBS Rockchucker seems like the way to go. It was hard to find anyone who said anything bad about it. I'm fine buying individual tools too. Most of the reloading gear at the store I mentioned was RCBS gear. The Rockchucker kit you linked above is well within my budget. My budget could be as high as $1500 but that also has to cover some bullets, primers, and powder, as well as the range gear I need; chronometer, rest, and etc. It's not an extravagant budget but I think it's enough to do what I need to do. I do want to make sure I get good quality in press, dies, and powder dispensing and measurement. |
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Posted: 12/7/2023 4:56:00 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blowout: The information might have been sourced from here: https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2022/07/223-rem-vs-5-56x45mm-nato-what-you-need-to-know/ Probably the most popular centerfire rifle round in the Western Hemisphere is the .223 Remington and its metric match, the 5.56x45mm. Though many folks use “.223 Rem” and “5.56×45″ interchangeably, there are some meaningful differences in specifications for the original .223 Rem and the 5.56x45mm cartridge, as adopted by the U.S. military and NATO armies. The default chamber throats are slightly different and the .223 Rem is rated at 55,000 PSI vs. 62,366 PSI for the 5.56x45mm.* Whoever wrote that is another example of someone who doesn't understand what he is talking about and is spreading misinformation ..... |
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Posted: 12/7/2023 4:57:32 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 243winxb: Some good old info here- https://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/ That article is full of false information. .... |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2023 5:16:44 PM EDT
[#21]
If you decide to get the LEE kit, take out the beam scale and throw it in the trash. It is GARBAGE. Even the cheapest scale on Amazon is better than that thing is. If you can find a RCBS, Lyman, Ohaus. These are very good scales and can be pricy depending on which you use.
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Posted: 12/7/2023 5:24:43 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tommee-boy-72: If you decide to get the LEE kit, take out the beam scale and throw it in the trash. It is GARBAGE. Even the cheapest scale on Amazon is better than that thing is. If you can find a RCBS, Lyman, Ohaus. These are very good scales and can be pricy depending on which you use. Thanks for the heads-up. A quality scale seems like a high-priority. I'm seeing two levels of RCBS mechanical beam scales; one around $110 and the other around $159. Either seems doable with my budget. |
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USA
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Posted: 12/7/2023 6:04:56 PM EDT
[#23]
BTW, as one of your goals down the road is a good varmint load, I can tell you the Hornady 55gr Soft Point, over 24.5gr H335, is most excellent.
I've noticed this combo, or similar, is ubiquitous around here in this forum. It puts coyotes down with a quickness. The bullet is fairly cheap and readily available, and the load is very accurate in our rifles, and they're all 5.56 chambers. I think it'd be a great bullet to do load development with. |
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Posted: 12/7/2023 6:34:39 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoeDevola: BTW, as one of your goals down the road is a good varmint load, I can tell you the Hornady 55gr Soft Point, over 24.5gr H335, is most excellent. I've noticed this combo, or similar, is ubiquitous around here in this forum. It puts coyotes down with a quickness. The bullet is fairly cheap and readily available, and the load is very accurate in our rifles, and they're all 5.56 chambers. I think it'd be a great bullet to do load development with. Sounds good to me. Thanks for the tip! |
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Posted: 12/7/2023 6:39:37 PM EDT
[#25]
Based on the FAQ, this is my first draft of a possible equipment list. This was from the recommended list; not the basics list.
Tumbler Tumbling media Media separator Media polish Shell holders Primer pocket cleaner Primer pocket uniformer Primer pocket swager Priming tool Trimmer Calipers Case gage Deburring tool Single stage press Case lube Dies Loading blocks Powder measure Powder measure stand Powder funnel Beam or electronic scale Bullet puller Stuck case remover |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2023 9:33:39 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rn22723: It is the same brass for all applications. There are some off brands (headstamp) of brass that has less internal case capacity. But if you stick with the regulars and such. Keep track of the # of firings. Ideally sort by headstamp to maximize accuracy potential. And in general no varmint is going to know the difference with what they are taken down with. Just develop a load that is safe accurate and reliable in your guns from the get go. Have confidence is your windage and elevation settings. The dies are the same for 223 and 5.56. Some out there think having a Wylde chambered barrel makes it a different cartridge. How dumb! I have actually seen a customer argue with the owner of a local LGS about it. A lgs owner does not make an expert |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2023 9:40:52 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By vatopa: Most commercial loaded ammo is gonna be loaded in 223. 556 is mainly mil surplus / spec type ammo. Most reloading is done to 223 spec even with 556 mil brass. I have multiple mainstream reloading books that has loads for .223, 5.56, and service rifle. So it seems its not all exactly the same. Load accordingly. |
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Posted: 12/7/2023 9:44:58 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WeimaranerDad: I don’t know how often you frequent this reloading subforum, but there are going to be at least two things you will read here on a regular basis with respect to reloading. 1. Start lower with the powder charge weights and work your way up….being sure to check the brass and primers for excessive pressure. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/369122/72F92DCC-9570-4AAE-A16E-BDA7A1FC0DAB_jpe-3049440.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/369122/668A6487-C46A-4AC9-86DD-DF493E12DF25_jpe-3049438.JPG (Those are just pics from a bing image search, they are NOT my pics) 2. Only have one bottle of powder or only one jug of powder on the bench at any time. Like other posters have mentioned, if you are going to be shooting these through a magazine fed AR15, then the COAL you are limited to is in the 2.250” ish or 2.260” ish range. The conventional wisdom or rule of thumb is that at magazine length or less, there is ZERO chance of you jamming the bullet into the rifling of an AR. Like other posters have already mentioned, the heavier 80 and 90 grain bullets can go into a bolt gun or be hand fed through an AR15’s ejection port. As a side note….about your comment here: I know just enough to be dangerous. I have been reloading since 1994, mainly .45ACP and 9mm back then. It wasn’t until about 2007 or so when I started dabbling in 3 gun competitions or multi-gun competitions that I started reloading .223 . There are dudes here who are way more knowledgeable and experienced about rifle reloading than little ol’ me. Take anything you read here on anywhere else on the internet with a grain of salt. Always cross check what somebody posts as their favorite “pet load” with published data in an actual reloading manual or at a powder manufacturer’s website. For example: https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WeimaranerDad: Originally Posted By Cascade-Dude: I'm not reloading now but I did in the past, in the 1970s and 1980s. I hope and expect to be doing it again. I've yet to ever fire a .223 round out of either of our two AR-15s. But, I'm on the hunt for a varmint cartridges for them. I can't find what I want in 5.56 ammo (53 grain Hornady V-Max) but I can easily find it in .223. I'm saving all of my brass now, for future reloading. I spent a bit more than an hour researching any potential issues with reloading .223 brass to 5.56 specs. What I found were huge differences of opinion on the matter. All the way from "totally not an issue" to "never, ever do it." Some say 5.56 brass has thicker case walls while others say that's a myth. So I thought I'd come here and see if I could get some information from people who know what they're doing, please. I know the 5.56 operates at higher pressures and to not put 5.56 in a .223 but it's okay to put .223 in a 5.56. I also know the exterior case dimensions of the two are the same. And I know the 5.56 chamber is slightly larger than a .223 chamber. Should I keep any .223 brass I save separate from the 5.56 brass and only reload it to .223 specs? Or can I reload them to 5.56 specs and press on? Oh, I tried to search for threads on this subject here; I'm sure there are, but I am almost never able to get useful results from my searches. If you know of a thread where this is hashed out, please refer me and I'll ask that this one be closed. Thanks for the help. I don’t know how often you frequent this reloading subforum, but there are going to be at least two things you will read here on a regular basis with respect to reloading. 1. Start lower with the powder charge weights and work your way up….being sure to check the brass and primers for excessive pressure. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/369122/72F92DCC-9570-4AAE-A16E-BDA7A1FC0DAB_jpe-3049440.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/369122/668A6487-C46A-4AC9-86DD-DF493E12DF25_jpe-3049438.JPG (Those are just pics from a bing image search, they are NOT my pics) 2. Only have one bottle of powder or only one jug of powder on the bench at any time. Like other posters have mentioned, if you are going to be shooting these through a magazine fed AR15, then the COAL you are limited to is in the 2.250” ish or 2.260” ish range. The conventional wisdom or rule of thumb is that at magazine length or less, there is ZERO chance of you jamming the bullet into the rifling of an AR. Like other posters have already mentioned, the heavier 80 and 90 grain bullets can go into a bolt gun or be hand fed through an AR15’s ejection port. As a side note….about your comment here: So I thought I'd come here and see if I could get some information from people who know what they're doing, please. I know just enough to be dangerous. I have been reloading since 1994, mainly .45ACP and 9mm back then. It wasn’t until about 2007 or so when I started dabbling in 3 gun competitions or multi-gun competitions that I started reloading .223 . There are dudes here who are way more knowledgeable and experienced about rifle reloading than little ol’ me. Take anything you read here on anywhere else on the internet with a grain of salt. Always cross check what somebody posts as their favorite “pet load” with published data in an actual reloading manual or at a powder manufacturer’s website. For example: https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center Primer on the right would give me a cold sweat if I saw it came from my gun. Probably a bullet setback issue |
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Posted: 12/7/2023 10:22:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: WeimaranerDad]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Based on the FAQ, this is my first draft of a possible equipment list. This was from the recommended list; not the basics list. Tumbler Tumbling media. from PetCo , Zilla brand lizard litter it is crushed walnut shells small enough to go through flasholes Media separator Media polish Shell holders Primer pocket cleaner I have never used one Primer pocket uniformer Again, I have never used one Primer pocket swager go with dryflash’s advice on this, he used to ream out the primer crimps Priming tool How old are you? My buddy is 56 and using a hand priming tool caused his arthritis to flare up. He bought the Lee bench priming tool instead Trimmer The sky is the limit there. When I got into .223 reloading, I went with the Possum Hollow cutter/trimmer. It has a tool holder that chucks into a drill. The toolholder will also accommodate a chamfering/deburring tool. Calipers. I have both the old school dial kind and the digital kind. If you do get the digital kind, be sure to get spare batteries Case gage I’ve got multiples…Dillon, Hornady, RCBS, L.E.Wilson. I wish I had not bought the Hornady’s now. When I first started some of the Dillon case gauges were only available in carbon steel. They rusted up surprisingly fast. So whatever you go with, get stainless. The Sheridan gauges are considered like the top of the line. Deburring tool. Deprnding on what you use to trim with, you might not need a deburring/chamfering tool. Single stage press Case lube You can make your own using Lanolin and HEET Dies Loading blocks If you are handy and have a drill press you could make your own Powder measure dryflash will go over with you on how to “sup up” your powder measure so it plays nice with the longer (grain) extruded powders Powder measure stand Powder funnel Beam or electronic scale Bullet puller I like the collet type bullet puller dies instead of the kinetic, hammer type bullet pullers Stuck case remover if using a handheld drill, sometimes the drill bit will grab the brass and it slams the bit down inside the bit and it could wreck your decapping rod or decapping pin. A drill press works best for this if you have one. I will try putting my responses in blue . |
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Posted: 12/7/2023 10:40:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AeroE]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PointBlank82: Primer on the right would give me a cold sweat if I saw it came from my gun. Probably a bullet setback issue I suppose it would be an issue in a .32-20 Win case, but I doubt anyone loads that one without crimping the bullets so they won't move. That case was loaded extremely hot, even higher than my old across the course ammunition. I don't believe I have ever seen an ejector mark that dug in like that one. |
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Posted: 12/7/2023 10:40:45 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Loading blocks Been loading for 30+ years and used a variety of plastic blocks. Do yourself a favor and spend some $ on a heavy aluminum block. Can't tell you how much powder I have spilled with lightweight plastic blocks. |
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Posted: 12/7/2023 11:08:33 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: Probably not, bullet set back in bottleneck cases such as the .223 Rem barely changes the internal volume. I suppose it would be an issue in a .32-20 Win case, but I doubt anyone loads that one without crimping the bullets so they won't move. That case was loaded extremely hot, even higher than my old across the course ammunition. I don't believe I have ever seen an ejector mark that dug in like that one. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: Originally Posted By PointBlank82: Primer on the right would give me a cold sweat if I saw it came from my gun. Probably a bullet setback issue I suppose it would be an issue in a .32-20 Win case, but I doubt anyone loads that one without crimping the bullets so they won't move. That case was loaded extremely hot, even higher than my old across the course ammunition. I don't believe I have ever seen an ejector mark that dug in like that one. Depends on the powder. Extruded are less sensitive to bullet setback, but ball powder? All bets off. Especially if loaded to NATO spec and a heavier 77 gr or all copper bullet. Temperature compounds the issue. |
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Posted: 12/7/2023 11:18:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Blowout]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tommee-boy-72: If you decide to get the LEE kit, take out the beam scale and throw it in the trash. It is GARBAGE. Even the cheapest scale on Amazon is better than that thing is. If you can find a RCBS, Lyman, Ohaus. These are very good scales and can be pricy depending on which you use. Along this line.... If you can find a used Ohaus or similar scale it's easy to tweek and make it very accurate inexpensively. The camera modification really helps get a consistent read on the scale regardless of where it's located. I used a cellphone camera pointed at the balance pointer before mounting a camera directly on the scale. https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Tuning-a-balance-beam-scale/42-520054/ |
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Posted: 12/7/2023 11:31:17 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Based on the FAQ, this is my first draft of a possible equipment list. This was from the recommended list; not the basics list. Tumbler dry Tumbling media The correct size corn cob so it doesn't stick in flasholes. You'll see. Media separator yes Media polish yes Shell holders yes, important...same brand as die set. You will see why I prefer Hornady dies and matching shellholder. Primer pocket cleaner yes Primer pocket uniformer yes Primer pocket swager choice here, swage or ream. I will show you both. Priming tool depends on your press, if you need one. I will show you on press priming (old school) Trimmer yes Calipers yes Case gage yes and also headspace gauge Deburring tool yes essential Single stage press yes, will also show you progressives Case lube spray lube of course, we make our own in this forum that is the equal to Dillon's or Franklin Arsenals Dies see shellholder for comments Loading blocks home made are best, those plastic abominations trip my OCD. Powder measure I'm very opinionated as I have lots of experience with RCBS, Hornady, and Redding. Powder measure stand I have a better way to do this. Look at my bench pic. I also do a one off mod on the stand. Powder funnel yes Beam or electronic scale I will give you opinion on both, and why I use what I do. Bullet puller Kinetic (hammer) or collet, I will show you both. Stuck case remover One of those tools you buy so you never need it. I used one once in 45 years. Open QUOTE as I made some comments. I have a selection of tools and will go over pros and cons. |
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Posted: 12/8/2023 7:51:56 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WeimaranerDad: I will try putting my responses in blue . Thank you very much. Very helpful. |
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Posted: 12/8/2023 7:55:41 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: Yes, that's what you will learn next week, what tools you need to start with. Open QUOTE as I made some comments. I have a selection of tools and will go over pros and cons. Thanks! I'm looking forward to it. I have a blank notebook and an empty head all ready to fill up with reloading information.
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Posted: 12/8/2023 3:38:25 PM EDT
[#37]
I concur that while .223 and 5.56mm are very similar, you WILL see different load data for each.
I downloaded load data from Hornady's website, and there is separate data for each. The 5.56 data is hotter (obviously). I've gone by the 5.56 data, and never had a problem. All 5.56 chambers here. I also concur that the best accuracy I've found lies in the upper 1/3rd of the data, not the max. And as others have said, safety, function, and accuracy are the primary goals. |
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Posted: 12/8/2023 3:44:20 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Thanks! I'm looking forward to it. I have a blank notebook and an empty head all ready to fill up with reloading information. Also need a page for tools I recommend. You will see these tools in action. You going to the Payullap gun show this weekend? I will be there both days. If so text me for meet up details. |
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Posted: 12/8/2023 6:56:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TZLVredmist]
[#39]
If it's helpful on the pressure side of the discussion:
Using a 20" barrel at a velocity of 3240, we see right at 51,000psi on test equipment. ETA: Below, edit above CIP with a Kistler 6215 I believe. |
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Posted: 12/8/2023 7:04:43 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: Good, taking notes is key as you will be overcome with information. Also need a page for tools I recommend. You will see these tools in action. You going to the Payullap gun show this weekend? I will be there both days. If so text me for meet up details. Thanks! No gun show for me this weekend. If we didn't already have plans, I'd be there. |
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Posted: 12/8/2023 7:08:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TZLVredmist: If it's helpful on the pressure side of the discussion: Using a 20" barrel at a velocity of 3240, we see right at 51,000psi on test equipment. CIP with a Kistler 6215 I believe. And therein lies the rub. SAAMI does not use the CIP method. The US military does not use the CIP method for their mil-spec standards. The NATO Standard AEP-97 Multi-Calibre Manual of Proof And Inspection For NATO Small Arms Ammunition does not use the CIP method. Your reading from the CIP method is not directly comparable to those various other methods and there are no formulas to convert a CIP reading to any of those various other methods. .... |
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Posted: 12/8/2023 7:32:38 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: I completed Lesson 0: Cleaning Brass the Old-School Way. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/582146/Lesson_0-3052236.jpg I just wanted to say “GOOD JOB!” On having and using those green plastic ammo boxes. For me, boxing up the reloaded ammo is my last QA/QC step. I put the rounds in bullet end down. Then I rub my gloved finger over the headstamps to check for high primers. (Sometimes the Dillon 650 has flipped primers before. Or they are not seated slightly below flush. Or they sometimes get mangled up.). Then I run a green sharpie marker across the headstamps (green means GO!). I also look for any height differences in the headstamps too. Sometimes a .380 case might sneak in with the regular 9mm. Or a 9X21. Or sometimes something like a .45 Long Colt bullet snuck in amongst the .45ACP 230 grain bullets. I even green stripe my shotgun ammo:  Attached File |
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Posted: 12/8/2023 7:52:52 PM EDT
[#43]
I have a drill press and Forstner bits. What sort of wood should I use to make my own wooden loading block or blocks, please? Finish? What dimensions should I use for diameter and depth, please? Do I need one block for each caliber or just one that will hold the largest diameter case I plan to load (my guess is the latter)? I see 50 holes in Dryflash's, so I'm guessing I would need two of them if I want to load in batches of 100?
If you think I have questions now, just wait until after Dryflash fills me and my notebook up with information. Thanks! |
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Posted: 12/8/2023 7:55:14 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WeimaranerDad: I just wanted to say “GOOD JOB!” On having and using those green plastic ammo boxes. For me, boxing up the reloaded ammo is my last QA/QC step. I put the rounds in bullet end down. Then I rub my gloved finger over the headstamps to check for high primers. (Sometimes the Dillon 650 has flipped primers before. Or they are not seated slightly below flush. Or they sometimes get mangled up.). Then I run a green sharpie marker across the headstamps (green means GO!). I also look for any height differences in the headstamps too. Sometimes a .380 case might sneak in with the regular 9mm. Or a 9X21. Or sometimes something like a .45 Long Colt bullet snuck in amongst the .45ACP 230 grain bullets. I even green stripe my shotgun ammo: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/369122/092BC89A-AD07-437A-8219-BBFF9DDF773A_jpe-3053714.JPG Thanks! That rocks! I love it. |
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Posted: 12/8/2023 7:57:40 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3:No powder out as not there yet. Important safety tip duly noted. |
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Posted: 12/8/2023 10:25:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TZLVredmist]
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: And therein lies the rub. SAAMI does not use the CIP method. The US military does not use the CIP method for their mil-spec standards. The NATO Standard AEP-97 Multi-Calibre Manual of Proof And Inspection For NATO Small Arms Ammunition does not use the CIP method. Your reading from the CIP method is not directly comparable to those various other methods and there are no formulas to convert a CIP reading to any of those various other methods. .... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By TZLVredmist: If it's helpful on the pressure side of the discussion: Using a 20" barrel at a velocity of 3240, we see right at 51,000psi on test equipment. CIP with a Kistler 6215 I believe. And therein lies the rub. SAAMI does not use the CIP method. The US military does not use the CIP method for their mil-spec standards. The NATO Standard AEP-97 Multi-Calibre Manual of Proof And Inspection For NATO Small Arms Ammunition does not use the CIP method. Your reading from the CIP method is not directly comparable to those various other methods and there are no formulas to convert a CIP reading to any of those various other methods. .... I will ask the guys on Monday what the total test is. I know they are using AEP-97 for testing. I don't see MPa listed on the printout though if that's what's needed. It's possible the software is setup to show PSI. I get to do spreadsheets while folks get to play with cool equipment.  EDIT: I was wrong, we are doing EPVAT not CIP. |
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Posted: 12/8/2023 10:27:57 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: You going to the Payullap gun show this weekend? I will be there both days. If so text me for meet up details. Mrs. Dude allowed as how going to a gun show in Payullap sounded like more fun than what we had planned. See you tomorrow in Payullap. |
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Posted: 12/8/2023 11:07:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TZLVredmist: I was wrong, we are doing EPVAT not CIP. EPVAT barrels measure pressure at the case mouth using a Piezoelectric transducer that is directly exposed to the gas pressure. Per AEP-97, the maximum mean case pressure for the 5.56mm NATO cartridge is 405 MPa, which is equivalent to 58,740 PSI. As before this is not directly comparable to the other methods of testing chamber pressure.   … |
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Posted: 12/9/2023 12:16:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: dryflash3]
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: I have a drill press and Forstner bits. What sort of wood should I use to make my own wooden loading block or blocks, please? Finish? What dimensions should I use for diameter and depth, please? Do I need one block for each caliber or just one that will hold the largest diameter case I plan to load (my guess is the latter)? I see 50 holes in Dryflash's, so I'm guessing I would need two of them if I want to load in batches of 100? If you think I have questions now, just wait until after Dryflash fills me and my notebook up with information. Thanks! My loading blocks are clones of the one's Midway used to sell when they were made of wood. Pine is the best, as it's light weight.  Top block in Black Locust, bottom Spalted Maple.  Pic of template drawing I used to make one out of 3/16 veneer plywood. Red line is the outside of block. Where lines meet is where you drill the holes.  Black Locust here.  Visible glue line on the Cherry one.  I stain and finish all of mine as Cherry looks so much better stained.  I not drilled too deep, 223 and 9mm can get along. Some sort of wood I got from a pallet.  45-70 takes a larger block if you want it to hold 50. 300 blk in the 223 block.  45-70 template, looks like I made this one in 2010. Ok, I'm done. |
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Posted: 12/9/2023 12:21:52 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Mrs. Dude allowed as how going to a gun show in Payullap sounded like more fun than what we had planned. See you tomorrow in Payullap. Can't find me shoot me a text. Pro tip, talk to me before doing any reloading buying. I can save you heartache. Note, this will be the second show in a row I've met up with an Arfcommer.
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