I said that what i said does not apply to Large packs. That is in my opinion because the Large pack is in many cases used as an administrative/approach movement pack more and not a combat pack. That means heavy loads and rough handling, which is a bad combination for the packs lifespan. If you noticed my pack picture the frame is bent. Pack isn't busted because it had tactical tailor work done to it including reinforced seams.

I have another pack in my reference collection that the frame is even in worse condition, badly bent and popped rivet repaired (just for the record is one of the packs made by eagle for Force Recon, and it has Blackhawk straps than sure look filmsy). That's why i support the idea of shelling money for a better made large pack and a better made frame, even better made straps to a point.

Medium alice pack on the other side has a size that more akin to a assault or daysack and that is difficult that even a soldier will put it under such strain that an improved one that is X times the price of a medium pack is needed (again, alice may be bought at surplus price, or even issued for free if you joined the army). There are a lot of aftermarket packs that carry a lighter day/assault load (which still may be heavy for civilian standards) that are available, plus there are both Medic and Radio packs made on alice frames to cover more niche needs...if you want to make a pack commercially viable and not just a neat garage project you should sell a Ton of them, organize machinery, materials etc. Not a trivial thing, lot of money to be put in advance with the hope that many customers that liked the idea will put the money where their mouths are.
Ask Diz on how that stuff works.

That said, i am a fan of the medium Alice, i am one of those that accepts the compromise of carrying the heavier frame to increase comfort on possible weird loads.

That said, i appreciate those navy seals with beavertail packs and first responder bags strapped to their alice frames well beyond the Alice pack era. Does tthose count as "modernized alice packs"?

I have worked in the world of defense acquisition contracts for about ten years now.

I don't need to ask anyone about the difficulties of mass manufacturing, but thanks.

Some of the new frame advancements and newer strap sets make a huge difference.  I get the full metal frame for a large alice, but the newer gen polymer frames + the more advanced strap sets will DRASTICALLY improve a medium ALICE.  

Heck, you can throw a medium ALICE on a FILBE pack frame and strap set.  The FILBE is a good pack, but some people will like the ALICE better.  Pros and cons to both.  And the new FILBE frameset isn't a bad setup.

Ok.  So yea, the Large ALICE is where it's at for a large pack.  They will definitely be more popular overall.  For all the reasons stated.  

As for the medium being in production - luckily, I'm a small shop who doesn't need to sell 1,000 units to make things worthwhile.  Right now I have 2 people total who can sew, and a 3rd I can probably bring in to do random admin stuff - cutting webbing and such.  If I can sell 100 packs, I'd be super happy, as it would take pressure off of me to dig up new business.

Now.  As for the specifics of the medium ALICE.  There are a few things I think that are being left out of the equation of if the Medium ALICE is going to be popular.  

1.  The new popularity of Belt Kit and potential jungle warfare and such upcoming.  Framed packs are better in both of those situations, and a good medium ALICE as a patrol pack - especially with all the modern options - is a good option.  

2.  The picture you have of the patrol pack on a frame with the aid bag under it - picture a Medium ALICE with a smartly designed sustainment / sleep system pouch designed to ride under it, attached to the frame with the ability to quickly come off.  Kinda like the aid bag on that picture you posted.  This, combined with a modded, modernized medium ALICE (and the extra pouches you can have on it) will up the capacity to close to that of a pimped out large ALICE - with the ability to drop the sustainment bag and use the Medium ALICE as a patrol pack.

This is what I'm wanting to do with the Medium ALICE project.  

3.  The Medium ALICE is one of the more optimal pack designs - it's a simple square basically, with external pockets on it.  Look at the Hill People Gear packs.  Same idea, but without external pockets.  The ALICE is a simple, sturdy design, with no easily broken parts (ie zippers - yes parts can break, but I mean things like zippers).  It has had alot of the kinks worked out of it over the years.  Most of the new packs these days are designed to look all cool and sleek and such - they don't want to look like that old 60 year old rucksack your grandpa used to wear.  (note I'm not cracking on new pack designs.  There are some good reasons some of that stuff is done)  But for an INFANTRY PACK - the ALICE is hard to beat overall.  Especially modernized.  There is only so many ways to carry something in a pack.  In the end, it's a bag on your back.  It's hard to beat a large square box shaped bag on your back with some external pockets for easy access to stuff.

Everyone wants to go to some kind of specialized high-speed backpack, but especially for dismounted infantry, a large square pack of some kind is going to be optimal.  And looking at Ukraine - dismounted infantry is back on the menu boys.

Very interested in your sleep system bag idea.  I always thought that was a neat feature on the Crossfire pack that incorporates a similar idea.

Yea, that's actually what got me thinking about it.  But the Crossfire one doesn't get removable.

I beg my pardon if what i said sounded offensive, that was not my intention, i just can't simply master the language.


That said, Brent0331 did a review of that pack i talked about, It is the "Hidden Woodsmen Tropical Lightweight Rucksack".
I checked the archived site and it stayed for sale for a year, mid 2021 to mid 2022. Price floated, but it was around 195$ for the pack itself (went down to 97$ the last days), 65$ for the hip belt and 57$ for the shoulder straps. Buy your frame of choice if you wish to use one.

RE: Removable Sleeping Bag Carrier.

Maybe use something like Molle Sticks to attach Bag Carrier, with suitable minimal PALS webbing on its upper surface to more extensive (multi-functional) area of Pals webbing on bottom of pack:  MOLLE Stix  

The Molle Stix are self-anchoring, but a sharp yank on lanyard will free them.  Tie/Sew lanyards to the SB Carrier to prevent loss.

I've seen 5-, 6-, and 8-inch lengths in OD, gray, and black.

I believe they were originally made by National Molding but may be made/offered by other companies nowadays.

Joe I think you do a helluva job witha da Anglish.  If I tried to talk to you in Italian, it would end badly.

Ditto!

Well, my need for a pack for this summer prompted me to just hit the "F" it button and purchase a CF2 for my overnight trips.  Ordered it today, so hopefully that's some money into Diz's pocket since I wouldn't have pulled the trigger on the CF2 if he hadn't been so helpful throughout his time here on ARFCOM.

I need to put up a lot of stuff for sale this summer on the E&E or Ebay.   I've got like a small surplus shop now worth of tactical nylon stuff that I've T&E and have decided to just toss it in a box in my basement.

No offense taken, I just never talk about my career here for various reasons and try not to go into any details about it, but thought I'd bring it up in response to your post to clarify that I do understand the difficulties involved.  

The problem with attaching anything via molle is that it might be easy to take off (like your recommendation above) but it is really slow to put back on.

If this works, it will probably have to be attached by something akin to fastex buckles, maybe in conjunction with something like a beavertail type flap that acts like a quasi-pack shelf that you can put the sleep system pouch into.  IE, a (removable) flap connected to the bottom of the frame, that you can wrap up and around the sleep system, which would be under the medium ALICE, and which you could then cinch down via fastex buckles on straps attached higher up.

The flap wouldn't even have to be very big, just big enough to anchor the bottom of the sleep system pouch and push it up and in towards the frame.

I keep forgetting he's Italian until he mentions something about foreign gear and I look and see his italian flag.

You'll like the Crossfire frame system.  I have a DG3, not a CF2, but I think they are on the same or very similar frame setup.

Same. You gotta buy to try. We should have a combined yard sale

Or zippers like on PLCE rucks.  Very secure, but definitely more labor intensive compared to a flap.

Later WW II/KorWar/early VN War USGI packs were an attempt to overcome the MANY limitations of previously issued M1928 pack.  HERE

Probably significant improvement over the M-1928 pack, but both iterations of packs suffered from "complicated" attachment/strap attachments of "bottom" accessory bottom to upper pack, as well as shoulder harness designed to accept both, likely an inevitable problem with current materials then available, not to mention "questionable" design in the midst of a global war.

The M-1943 field pack was issued to USMC and Army troops, but also had its's limitations as a "big sack":  M-1943 Pack  

It also had its limitations, but likely was better for most troops than the Army/USMC versions of previous packs.

A bit of history, especially failed history, and so "failed" history is always useful going forwards.

Yea, I just hate zippers on gear.  It's too easy to throw a tooth or two off and the zipper fail.  

But that is an idea to play around with.

Yea, I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible.  I hate complicated attachment systems.  

So do we all. Just giving past examples of failed systems for future examination.

How about G hooks through the molle, further secured with lashing straps?  The straps would not only secure it, but tighten it down. A Tight pack is a light pack, right?

"G" hooks require constant tension to make webbing to be secure.  Absent such constant webbing tension, may not be "ideal" device.  I've had "G-hooks" fail to secure webbing what with common field exercises. YMMV.

Yea I don't trust ghooks for this.  I'd rather use fastex buckles and just buckle into it and cinch it down.

On me and CF; I just do the prototype design and get paid for that.  Anything you buy from CF goes to them.  But yeah, right on, I think you're gonna love that ruck.  In fact we have been R&Ding it this week by adding on our new suite of pouches, turning it into essentially a Med ALICE "8-pocket pack" like TT, LBT, and all the local tailor shops outside bases make.  If any of you guys with CF2's wanna try that concept out, shoot me a line here and I'll send ya some.  We appreciate your bidness and know our packs are 'spensive, so glad to throw in a few extras.  

In fact, we took a solid RG base and added camo pouches all around and were amazed at the result.  You got your low profile every day ruck that instantly converts to field camo.  I think this new CF2 is gonna be a hit.

After personal experience, I concur with your comments. about "G-Hooks".

I am with raf on the g hooks problems.

However with a revised design the problem maybe could be alleviated.

Days ago i torn apart a baby car Seat to wash the lining and on the inside the seatbelts are joined with this, which Is for all practical purposes a g hook, but It is made in such a way that a very deliberate movement is needed to unfasten it.

I get the concerns about g hooks. I’ve seen some that have wire gates. Thinking of options that arent as bulk as buckles. Maybe borrow the toggle design from Diz?  I believe what you’re looking for is something that makes it easy to attach/unattach the sleep carrier easily. Compression and lashing can be accomplished separately.

Yea, something to quickly attach / unattach the sleep carrier.

With my flap idea, you don't need to  'attach'  the sleep carrier.  The flap (think a beavertail designed for a helmet) holds it in place after you cinch it down.

Sounds awesome.   You yelled at them to release gear.in coyote, right?

Si, Senior.

This Is a Crazy modernized alice Instagram link

Call me "skeptical" about a vendor/mfr who precedes their post by apologizing for past lapses.

This approach, making a relatively low-profile, "Grey-Man", "non-Military" pack, but being able to accessorize it with terrain-appropriate external pouches is a Brilliant idea.

IDK if the visible PALS webbing will be a problem in "Grey Man" situations, unless the PALS webbing exactly matches the pack's color.  Even a slight and noticeable difference will be seen.

A Large ALICE has internal D-rings and 550-cord tiedowns that allow you to cinch it down to Medium ALICE / large jungle ruck internal dimensions.  You don't have to pack it so tight you stress seams or the structural carrying limits of the design.

When you need to, you can un-tie the tie-downs to expand it back to full carrying capacity.

IMHO, such Lg ALICE/MOLLE II pack internal draw-cords are a fussy business to adjust.  Most folks would be better off with some easily adjusted external horizontal and vertical compression straps

Who refuses to take advantage of the full capacity of your pack??  

Hello gentlemen,

My name is Liam and I am from South Africa. I have been following this thread keenly since I stumbled accross it while searching the inernet on the topic of modernising/ upgrading the ALICE in its different variants. First up, I am not a vendor and my interest is purely hobby-based. As it happens, I have tried my hand att some of the mods described here and though that I might have some useful input. If not at least I'll have found some folks who share my inerest, some of whom have obvious expertise on the subect.

Aside from some mods to the rather massive Australian MAC ALICE pack and its suspension sysem, I recently acquired a Medium Alice and did some mods to it (well acually I had a local tarp/ tent maker do the mods) this entailed removing the original ALICE attachment points and sewing webbing from Rockywoods onto the pack, sewing a "storm" baffle into the mouth, and replacing the metal pack and pouch fasteners with ITW Fastex buckles.

Anyway, sorry for barging in like this, I seem to be limited in my posting size so here's a pic or two of my Medium ALICE:

Let me help you out with posting those pics

Attached File


Attached File


Looks good!

Looks good, and welcome!

Thank you, should I be using a different function to post pics? I only saw the function to post a link.

Using Dropbox, that is your only option that I am aware of. Having an ARF account with file hosting is the easiest, but I find using Imgur is also easy for a free option.

Hey, welcome!  You aren't barging in.  You're welcome to stick around!

Good job on the packs.  Looks like you dyed them?

Imgur is a website that allows you to upload a picture and they will host it for free.  They will give you a link to the photo and you can use that to post them up on websites and such.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285227200108

I don't know who made these but I found one on ebay new for much cheaper. The frame is amazingly light and comfortable. The pictures don't show it but it's a molded plastic with a webbing that keeps everything off your back a few inches. It's like the back of a high end breathable office chair. The pouches are probably odd shaped for other applications but maybe useful.

Thank you, TBH stitching does leave a lot to be desired but I guess for someone who has never had o sew ALS before its not a bad effort considering that the machine probably is not near optimal either. No dye, the pack is original OD.The webbing however was the "VAT-N1-Olive Drab" from Rockywoods which isn't the same OD as the pack. In fact the Ranger Green webbing on my 11 or 12 year old TT Operator Assault Pack would have made a much better match so I'll know for the next project. The grey patching you can see appears to be duct tape residue, I suspect that the pack taped up with a bundle of packs for a while in the surplus pile unsightly but doesn’t affect the functionality.

OK I give up with the pics. They either post embarrassingly huge or the link doesnt work.

Thank you to everyone for the welcome. Sorry if my posts are a bit disjointed, on top of being a bit inept it has been a long day!

No problem.  

Yea, those older OD packs actually came in a bunch of different 'kinda OD' shades.  Sometimes you'll see some of them made with 2 different shades of fabric.

Sorry to derail this thread here a bit, but if you have pics of this I'd be really interested to see it. I'm planning on working out my gear this summer, fall and winter and then deciding between a CF2 or CF3. I don't have a lot of experience with packs and pack sizes, but I'm pretty sure I would need a CF3 to handle a full winter load out.

@Marnsdorff, I wanted to mention this in my very first post but was limited to a certain amount of characters. Your idea of extending the pack sides by a half inch is spot on. That way you'll not only avoid having to potentially make the loops down the sides a bit smaller but also extend the capacity of the bag by just enough to compensate for how it gets slightly degraded when mounted on a frame (esp the 1606 or MALICE frame) but not enough to actually be visually noticable.

I am all for retro and custom gear, but how much work is a viable option before just spending money for a new store bought military pack?

i am guilty as well as the pack i have photographed earlier in this topic is a large alice pack with circa 2004 TT Mods (reinforced stitching, storm flap, buckles, extra pocket sewn on the side, IV bag) which has served me extremely well, but costed a lot, i don't remember but maybe the Blackhawk SOF ruck in the end was comparable in price and it had proprietary frame and straps. That said, in my experience i have a close friend that ran a Blackhawk Sof Ruck and it had the tendency of tearing up and busting stitches in some places when the stiff closed cell foam padding pushed thru the nytaneon (their cordura material). it is something i experienced also on other blackhawk rigs over time (that served me and others very well)