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Posted: 1/5/2006 6:16:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 6:16:40 PM EDT by Striker]
I'm not asking if Glocks kaBoom more than other gun manufacturers or not. Waht I'd like to know is that if it does happen is the shooter generally allright? Seems most of the documented cases have the shooter walking away without a sratch with damage to the gun being the primary concern. I was under the impression the shooter could be killed if involved in a kaBoom?
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 11:38:51 AM EDT
There's the possibility of serious injury, but mostly with rifles.
There was a guy who was loading his bolt-action with pistol powder and sent a chunk of the bolt into his forehead, killing him. An member here was the EMT who responded to the call at the range.

However, there are no recorded fatalities from Glock KaBooms, but eyewear makes even more sense when using ANY firearm.

My Glock 22 has over 5,000rnds and no KaBoom.
I don't expect one, but I still wear protection.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 11:41:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 11:41:41 AM EDT by Dusty_C]

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
I'm not asking if Glocks kaBoom more than other gun manufacturers or not. Waht I'd like to know is that if it does happen is the shooter generally allright? Seems most of the documented cases have the shooter walking away without a sratch with damage to the gun being the primary concern. I was under the impression the shooter could be killed if involved in a kaBoom?

If wearing eye/ear protection the worst I've seen with any gun is bruised hands.


ETA, and some SLIGHT burns.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 11:47:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 11:47:42 AM EDT by mjohn3006]
A 1911 KB would be much more dangerous.

That is why JMB designed them not to do that.


Link Posted: 1/4/2006 11:52:42 AM EDT
The only time Glocks go Kaboom is when the shooter uses reloads. The whole Kaboom factor is fueled by the, "the only good pistol is the 1911" crowd. The Kaboom is their last ditch effort to influence others to hold onto dead technology. 1911 fans love reloads, reloading = waste of time

buy bulk ammo from academy 1000 of 9mm 70 bucks

buy a Glock.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 11:55:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
The only time Glocks go Kaboom is when the shooter uses reloads. The whole Kaboom factor is fueled by the, "the only good pistol is the 1911" crowd. The Kaboom is their last ditch effort to influence others to hold onto dead technology. 1911 fans love reloads, reloading = waste of time

buy bulk ammo from academy 1000 of 9mm 70 bucks

buy a Glock.

I dunno about reloading being a waste of time, but everything else is dead on. And anyone that can fucking read, knows that your not supposed to use reloads in a Glock. They do anyway, they can KB and people blame the gun. Not the person at fault. Themselves for going against a manufacturers instructions.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 11:57:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 11:58:56 AM EDT by LARRYG]

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
The only time Glocks go Kaboom is when the shooter uses reloads. The whole Kaboom factor is fueled by the, "the only good pistol is the 1911" crowd. The Kaboom is their last ditch effort to influence others to hold onto dead technology. 1911 fans love reloads, reloading = waste of time

buy bulk ammo from academy 1000 of 9mm 70 bucks

buy a Glock.



That is patently false and has been shown to be otherwise. There have been cases where it happened with factory ammo. I don't know if kabooms happen more often with Glocks and I really don't care, just don't make false statements like that.

As for "buy a Glock", I'll pass, given their completely voluntary involvement with the ATF (at the Fed level) on ballistic fingerprinting.

However, as the original poster stated, he does not want to get into a debate, he just wants to know the end results when they have happened.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 11:59:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 11:59:33 AM EDT by SPTiger]
Back when I was unaware of Glock kaBooms I used reloads in my G23. No more. However IIRC all the owner's manuals of all of my guns warn against the use of reloads.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 12:02:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
The only time Glocks go Kaboom is when the shooter uses reloads. The whole Kaboom factor is fueled by the, "the only good pistol is the 1911" crowd. The Kaboom is their last ditch effort to influence others to hold onto dead technology. 1911 fans love reloads, reloading = waste of time

buy bulk ammo from academy 1000 of 9mm 70 bucks

buy a Glock.



That is patently false and has been shown to be otherwise. There have been cases where it happened with factory ammo. I don't know if kabooms happen more often with Glocks and I really don't care, just don't make false statements like that.

As for "buy a Glock", I'll pass, given their completely voluntary involvement with the ATF (at the Fed level) on ballistic fingerprinting.

However, as the original poster stated, he does not want to get into a debate, he just wants to know the end results when they have happened.

Out of all the pics on here of Glock KB's that were real only ONE was with factory ammo. That ONE had an aftermarket barrel. The 2 I've seen in real life were both with reloads.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 1:44:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 2:18:04 PM EDT by TheOtherDave]

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
complete bullshit, more than a few have kb'd on factory ammunition as well.


as to what happens....

magazine blows out along with trigger and occasionally other parts.
frame splits in multiple areas
slide typically stays on the frame but may or may not be removeable
chamber typically bulges out of ejection port.

i have seen several go. none of them involved serious injury. Usually small cuts and tattooing of the hand with burnt powder. numbness in the hand and the feeling it was hit with a hammer soon after are about the worst i have seen.



This is exactly what happened with my G23, but some pieces got in the guy's hand. Superficial wounds, but his hand swelled up quite a bit. The no-no's with Glocks in general are just not to use lead bullets as they seal too well in the rifling and the pressures get dangerous. The no-no's with .40S&W (the caliber that most Glock KB's occur with) are loading them too hot or seating them too deep. Since the .40cal Glock barrels don't have a fully supported chamber, a hot loaded .40 round will blow out in a classic 6 o'clock blow out and rip the case head off. Looks very distinctive. You really have to be careful with .40 Glocks, even seating the bullet .010 too deep will exceed SAMMI max pressures.

Funny how much you learn about the Wunder Round of the Week AFTER it blows your gun up...
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 1:52:50 PM EDT
A SHTF handgun that needs premium factory ammo, thats too funny.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 1:53:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 1:55:37 PM EDT
Just don't run hot loads in them...
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 1:57:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rem700PSS:
Just don't run hot loads in them...



And for Gods sakes don't light the fuse. I don't understand why people light the fuse. I'm not even sure why Glock puts it there.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:00:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

And for Gods sakes don't light the fuse. I don't understand why people light the fuse. I'm not even sure why Glock puts it there.



To leave scorch marks on tile floors!!

Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:04:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:05:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 2:10:31 PM EDT by glock23carry]

Originally Posted By mjohn3006:
A 1911 KB would be much more dangerous.

That is why JMB designed them not to do that.





The only kaboom I've had was in a Wilson Combat CQB. Blew out the mag, both grips and burned my right hand. The barrel was locked up tight.



Kabooms are, in my opinion, caused by the rim letting go on a case, and the same cartridge, oriented in the same direction (in other words the weak spot facing an unsupported gap) would have kaboomed in any weapon.

I've fired thousands of 40, 45 and 9 from my Glocks with nary a problem. Based on the design, a Glock should be less of a problem as the grips cannot fly off like a 1911.

G
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 6:17:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
I'm not asking if Glocks kaBoom more than other gun manufacturers or not. Waht I'd like to know is that if it does happen is the shooter generally allright? Seems most of the documented cases have the shooter walking away without a sratch with damage to the gun being the primary concern. I was under the impression the shooter could be killed if involved in a kaBoom?

my 17 has Ka boomed several times with no injury. I use only new ammo now and have no prob..
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 3:56:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JFP:

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
I'm not asking if Glocks kaBoom more than other gun manufacturers or not. Waht I'd like to know is that if it does happen is the shooter generally allright? Seems most of the documented cases have the shooter walking away without a sratch with damage to the gun being the primary concern. I was under the impression the shooter could be killed if involved in a kaBoom?

my 17 has Ka boomed several times with no injury. I use only new ammo now and have no prob..



Wha?
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 3:59:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
The only time Glocks go Kaboom is when the shooter uses reloads. The whole Kaboom factor is fueled by the, "the only good pistol is the 1911" crowd. The Kaboom is their last ditch effort to influence others to hold onto dead technology. 1911 fans love reloads, reloading = waste of time

buy bulk ammo from academy 1000 of 9mm 70 bucks

buy a Glock.




Damned straight, well said sir
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 6:17:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 6:18:10 AM EDT by RIA45ACP]

Originally Posted By glock23carry:

Originally Posted By RIA45ACP:
And the 1911 being dead technology Yeah that must be why Marine Recon and most SF units are going back to the 1911 instead of using all the other choices they have available.



Yes, that's perfect reasoning. I'm sure that the KD course of 500 meteres is another excellent example of how everything the USMC does is related to the real world and why the M16A2 has a target sight instead of a battle sight.

G



It is perfect reasoning. I would guess that a Recon Marine has quite a few more chances to use his pistol in a life or death situation than you, me or most anyone else, I would bet they chose the 1911 over all the others for a good reason.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 6:17:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:
Buy a Glock 17...don't have to worry about it...



Even the 9mm kBs
www.thegunzone.com/glock/g19-kb.html
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 8:43:20 AM EDT
I think every manufacturer recomends factory ammo.

Not just Glock.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 8:45:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By akethan:
I think every manufacturer recomends factory ammo.

Not just Glock.



It's an insurance/lawsuit liability not to.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 8:47:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By akethan:
I think every manufacturer recomends factory ammo.

Not just Glock.



Yeah, but Glock means it. Everyone else is just kidding.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 9:00:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JFP:

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
I'm not asking if Glocks kaBoom more than other gun manufacturers or not. Waht I'd like to know is that if it does happen is the shooter generally allright? Seems most of the documented cases have the shooter walking away without a sratch with damage to the gun being the primary concern. I was under the impression the shooter could be killed if involved in a kaBoom?

my 17 has Ka boomed several times with no injury. I use only new ammo now and have no prob..



Your POS has Kaboomed several times...and you still feel confortable shooting it?
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 11:07:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 11:08:11 AM EDT by mattimeo]

Originally Posted By _RAGNAR_:

On the same note realize that in the Glock 40s the barrel is brought to 10mm on the inside from 9mm, with no external change. No change in the gun at all. So now you have a cartridge with much, much more pressure that spikes very hard in a barrel weaker than a 9mm barrel. Any error in metallurgy is going to show itself very quickly were the 9mm with a bad barrel would never fail. .40s in .45 sized guns never Kb, because obviously the barrels external dimensions are huge.




While everything else you said may be spot on, you are wrong here. Try dropping a factory .40 barrel into a 9mm slide. Not happening. The .40 barrel has a larger outside diameter.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 11:27:10 AM EDT

i compared my walther p99 barrell to several glocks and the walther at least has a much greater area at the base of the cartridge supported. As do most aftermarket glock barrells.

Anyone have any KB data on glocks refitted with aftermarket barrells? I have never heard of one.



I'd be very interested to hear info on this too. If true, then buying an aftermarket barrell would eliminate the kb factor. But why wouldn't Glock just fix the problem with a new barrell themselves -or did they?

Meant to ask...do the newer rev. 3 Glocks have the kb problem or is it just the older ones?
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 12:08:18 PM EDT
If I can't reload for it...whats the point...

I have never had a problem with a Glock, in fact, I own a G30.
But I cant hit shit with it. In fact, I cant shoot for shit with any Glock I have tried.

I do just great with a 1911 or a S&W revolver. These guns just come naturaly to me.

When i get back, the 30 is going up for sale.
If I cant hit shit with it, what's the point of having it...
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 12:05:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 12:34:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
The only time Glocks go Kaboom is when the shooter uses reloads. The whole Kaboom factor is fueled by the, "the only good pistol is the 1911" crowd. The Kaboom is their last ditch effort to influence others to hold onto dead technology. 1911 fans love reloads, reloading = waste of time

buy bulk ammo from academy 1000 of 9mm 70 bucks

buy a Glock.



Get over yourself.

ARH



Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:24:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 2:28:33 PM EDT by FALARAK]
Sounds like you need to do some more research.


Originally Posted By Arsenal:
The only time Glocks go Kaboom is when the shooter uses reloads.



Wrong.


The whole Kaboom factor is fueled by the, "the only good pistol is the 1911" crowd. The Kaboom is their last ditch effort to influence others to hold onto dead technology.


This might be true. I cant say. But I do know that if you search for information on Glock kbooms, google will find you LOTS of info. Try the same on the 1911. Now - if there were as many 1911's in .40 cal (the largest number of kBooms in Glocks appear to be in .40SW) we might see a different story, since the .45ACP is a low pressure round. But it has been easily demonstrated that the Glock chamber leaves part of the case unsupported... and it is widely held that with very high pressure rounds, this adds to the kBoom problem. Try and use some facts.


1911 fans love reloads, reloading = waste of time


That is about the biggest crock of shit I have ever read. Good LORD. Handguns are in all kinds of calibers. The 1911 primarily chambered in .45, tho also comes in many flavors. The Glock originally chambered in 9mm, also comes in many flavors. I dare say the majority of samples out there are true to the original chambering. The gun has NOTHING to do with reloading. That is absolutely moronic.

However - it can be assumed that less people reload the 9mm, since it is so widely available at very competitive prices. I shoot factory 9mm, and reload all my .45ACP. My 9mm is all shot out of my Glocks... my .45 goes in my 1911. However, if I shot a Glock .45ACP, I would still reload. It is about cost savings, not the type of gun you shoot.


buy bulk ammo from academy 1000 of 9mm 70 bucks


In the other thread... I am still waiting for you to put up or shut up. Academy does NOT sell 9mm CCI blazer for $70. (You said $69 in the other thread) They sell it for $3.86 a box, with no discount for cases. That comes to $77.20 ($84 with Tax). Sigh. I have been buying it for 4 years at that same price, and have never seen it cheaper, though I suppose it could go on sale and I just missed it. However, it is not widely available at the price you mention.... so please, facts only. Not fiction.

Secondly, please understand that this is a international gun website. You do realize that Academy is primarily just in the south, right?


buy a Glock.


Are you retarded?

(that said, I love Glocks. I own quite a few. I shoot CCI blazer from Academy. I own two 1911's, and reload .45ACP for those. I am not defending the Glock, the 1911, or anything else for that matter.... but I think you should engage your brain before opening your mouth.)
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:18:52 PM EDT
I've actually seen a gun kaBoom and it was a Kimber 1911 with reloads. It was suspected that there was a double charge in the round.

From what I remember the slide cracked/split near the rear. The trigger group may have fell out too. She caught some shrapnel in the face and got a few cuts, I think her hand had some small cuts as well. Pretty minor considering the circumstances, she was wearing eyes and ears.

As they were leaving to go to the hospital as a precautionary measure, they told her to tell the doc it was from a lawnmower, not a gun. Reminds me of skateboarding, we'd always tell the doc we hurt ourselves shooting hoops instead.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:26:31 PM EDT
A lot of manufacturers say "don't use reloads".

Reloads work fine in glocks. However, if you brew up your +P+++++ specials, and break your gun, don't say they didn't warn you.

The polygonal barrel doesn't like lead bullets. Leads up real fast.

Use jacketed bullets, and don't be stupid with your reloads.

I have seen plenty of 1911 pattern guns blow with hot loads. Its no surprise when someone with overloaded .40 S&W hand loads (or bad factory loads) does it with a Glock, or Sig, or HK, or S&W.


Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:35:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 2:36:57 PM EDT by LHD]

Originally Posted By mjohn3006:
A 1911 KB would be much more dangerous.

That is why JMB designed them not to do that.






Best quote ever.


Its going in my sig.

ETA: I guess I dont get a sig.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:40:50 PM EDT
Buy a Glock 17...don't have to worry about it...
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:43:53 PM EDT
the .40 cal is supposedly not fully supported, some federal ammo caused a few blows.

Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:49:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
the .40 cal is supposedly not fully supported, some federal ammo caused a few blows.




yep unsupported chambers + weak brass = BOOM!,
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 3:04:52 PM EDT
A case head giving way is not a Kb. The Kb term was created specifically to designate the failure being experienced in Glock .40s.

A simple case head failure does not cause the barrel to blow apart or the slide to break. A simple case head failure may damage some of the lower mechanism (in any gun) as it is not made to handle pressure, but usually it does not even do that. It may damage or destroy the magazine.

A double charge usually results in a case head failure, but should not be confused with just a simple case head failure. Double charge being the cause. The head failure being the effect. This can damage more of the gun.

The original .40 Glock Kbs were a combination of bad barrels and hot ammo. In the original Kbs the barrels always gave way. This happened with factory and reloaded ammunition. The barrel material was seen to be very crystallized inside of the failed areas. This could result in the frame being destroyed also, but not always.

Some of these bad barrels were taken to their point of failure because of the pressures caused by lead bullets, but only a few. Most where from factory ammo.

If it happened not just from a bad barrel but in combination with a hot round then the barrel blew and the frame was destroyed, and sometimes the slide was destroyed.

A simple out of battery fire or simple case head failure will not result in a blown barrel or broken slide. It may damage the frame because once again the frame is not made to take the force. But out of battery fire and case head failures produce LESS stress on the chamber not more and does not result in barrel failures. Blaming Kbs on out of battery fire is ridiculous.

The first year the Glock .40 was out we witnessed >6 Kbs, by the third year they where basically non-existent. I have not seen one in maybe 6-8 years. All I have seen where from early production .40s.

I have seen numerous case head failures over the years from double charges. All were reloads. In all types of guns. In 9mm it usually does not hurt the gun, in any gun design. In 1911s it usually blows the grips and destroys the magazine. In .45s in Glocks and HKs it blows the frame/trigger apart. In .40 made of plastic like a glock or Hk it can destroy the frame, in a steel gun it usually doesn't hurt the frame.

I have never seen a significant injury in all the Kbs or double charges I have seen.

On the same note realize that in the Glock 40s the barrel is brought to 10mm on the inside from 9mm, with no external change. No change in the gun at all. So now you have a cartridge with much, much more pressure that spikes very hard in a barrel weaker than a 9mm barrel. Any error in metallurgy is going to show itself very quickly were the 9mm with a bad barrel would never fail. .40s in .45 sized guns never Kb, because obviously the barrels external dimensions are huge.

Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:44:53 PM EDT
Some good info there Ragnar. Thanks!
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:52:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 5:52:37 PM EDT by mjohn3006]
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 4:24:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 4:28:54 AM EDT by RIA45ACP]

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
The only time Glocks go Kaboom is when the shooter uses reloads. The whole Kaboom factor is fueled by the, "the only good pistol is the 1911" crowd. The Kaboom is their last ditch effort to influence others to hold onto dead technology. 1911 fans love reloads, reloading = waste of time

buy bulk ammo from academy 1000 of 9mm 70 bucks

buy a Glock.

I dunno about reloading being a waste of time, but everything else is dead on. And anyone that can fucking read, knows that your not supposed to use reloads in a Glock. They do anyway, they can KB and people blame the gun. Not the person at fault. Themselves for going against a manufacturers instructions.



FWIW almost all manufacturers say that you shouldnt use anything but factory ammunition in their guns. Reloading being a waste of time, I wouldnt be able to shoot half as much as I do if I didnt reload, why would you want something you couldnt reload for anyway.... And the 1911 being dead technology Yeah that must be why Marine Recon and most SF units are going back to the 1911 instead of using all the other choices they have available.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 4:32:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:38:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RIA45ACP:
And the 1911 being dead technology Yeah that must be why Marine Recon and most SF units are going back to the 1911 instead of using all the other choices they have available.



Yes, that's perfect reasoning. I'm sure that the KD course of 500 meteres is another excellent example of how everything the USMC does is related to the real world and why the M16A2 has a target sight instead of a battle sight.

G
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 8:32:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CZ75_9MM:

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:
Buy a Glock 17...don't have to worry about it...



Even the 9mm kBs
www.thegunzone.com/glock/g19-kb.html



Did you bother to READ that post? He was using someone else's mixed headstamp reloads.... and upon inspecting the brass - all showed signs of high pressure on the fired brass. That is simply a case of bad ammo.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 10:02:45 AM EDT
Good Post from Ragnar.

I recall seeing a picture comparing how the Glock 40 barrel supports the round compared to other .40 S&W pistols. IIRC, the Glock was just as unsupported as any other .40. Any one else remember this?
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 10:08:15 AM EDT
funny, I shoot reloads almost exclusively through my glock 23(complete with unsupported .40 chamber, oh teh noes!!1!!) and I have never had a problem. the problem people have with reloads is overcharged rounds which will blow up any firearm.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 10:45:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 12:08:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
I'm not asking if Glocks kaBoom more than other gun manufacturers or not. Waht I'd like to know is that if it does happen is the shooter generally allright? Seems most of the documented cases have the shooter walking away without a sratch with damage to the gun being the primary concern. I was under the impression the shooter could be killed if involved in a kaBoom?



Stay away from reloading lead bullet in Glock factory barrels and you should be ok. The idea of safety glasses is an excellent idea. It serves 2 purposes. Protects your eyes and keep your identity secret while shooting such a butt ugly gun. They are reliable though.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 12:17:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rabon:
A SHTF handgun that needs premium factory ammo, thats too funny.



PREMIUM factory ammo?

Since when did Winchester White Box and other low cost ammo become PREMIUM?
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 12:27:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

Originally Posted By SoCalJBT:

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
with little to no supporting evidence, as your most commonly touted case you werent there to witness in person.





mine wasn't the only one. i have seen several go south. how about answering my question from above about aftermarket barrells? why no reports of issues with those yet what seem to be hundreds of issues with out of the box guns? serious question... no bullshit.



Unsupported chambers are the root cause, period.

BTW, I'm a Glock certified armorer.



dear lord someone finally admits it. THANK YOU for not drinking the kool-aid. Glock's design is a solid gun IMHO except for this ONE crucial flaw.



I've said it on GlockTalk and gotten flamed to death. They really can't dispute the facts, they just get really mad.
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